English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Færd

12:48 AM

What do you think the difference between these two is?

> I saw him enter the house at 08:00.

> I saw him entering the house at 08:00.

I think there is a difference, for I would only use the second one in:

> The suspect was seen entering the house.

Cerberus

1:31 AM

The first construction is an accusative with infinitive, and it can therefore only be used after an active verb.

At least I don't think the accusative with infinitive can ever be used with a passive verb in English.

But semantically I perceive very little difference, if any at all—just as there would be in Latin, where both constructions also exist.

Færd

1:55 AM

Thank you.

Færd

2:53 AM

I suspect him entering in the second example is not of the same structure as it is in I hate him entering my house without permission; ie, it doesn't mean his entering.

Cerberus

@Færd Hmm why not?

I would say they are the same?

You could use his in either case?

Færd

Well, you could, but with verbs like hear, see, etc it doesn't feel the same. Maybe. I'm just thinking aloud.

Cerberus

Perhaps it is less common.

Færd

I'm thinking if there were any difference between I saw him enter and I saw him entering, it'd be that the second one could mean I caught a glimpse of him when he was entering.

Cerberus

I don't know.

Færd

3:02 AM

Me neither.

Cerberus

I don't really perceive much of a difference, but there might be a subtle one.

Færd

Maybe I'll post a question on the mane site if I didn't find anything there.

Cerberus

> Henry Smith Williams - 1926 - ‎Snippet view - ‎More editions
Scarce had he spoken when in the north and in the west they saw his coming, dark and cloudlike, attended by shadow that eclipsed the clear day.

But there may be a religious context, where coming has really become a special noun.

Færd

Interesting. Yeah.

Cerberus

books.google.com/ngrams/…

Færd

3:07 AM

Why did I mistyped main? :)

3

Q: "See somebody do" and "see somebody doing"

My grammar book says that if you saw the complete action you use do/get/drive: "I saw him fall off the wall." Otherwise you use -ing: "I saw him standing at the bus stop." A native American speaker said that he doesn't agree with that and there is no difference whether you use -ing or not. He sa...

Tonepoet

@Cerberus Aside from the obvious meaning, Webster's dictionary has Entrance; Beginning/Commencement; income/revenue and compliance/submission. Checking there seems to make sense because Webster was a pious scholar who made copious use of biblical quotations, making him a favorite among religious scholars. Out of those four, I guess beginning makes the most sense...

Though perhaps the addition of -in is vital to that interpretation.

It probably just means arrival, and we would probably just say arrival.

Færd

@C I'm happy to see that my hypothesis is partly confirmed by Stoney's answer to that ELL question.

Cerberus

@Tonepoet "The coming of Christ" is a common phrase.

And I suspect that's what the author intended.

Especially the second coming...

@Færd I don't know.

There could be some association with the finite continuous/progressive tenses.

Tonepoet

3:22 AM

@Cerberus Yeah it is, in the context of Christ, seemingly because the Messiah's arrival was so long anticipated that I guess nobody had a mind to change his status from coming to arrived. =P

Cerberus

But I think Stoney's answer is rather short and lacks details/complexity.

@Tonepoet Hah!

Perhaps because he not there long enough?

Færd

Thinking logically about the effect of the progressive form, Stoney's theory seems plausible.

Tonepoet

@Cerberus The way I recollect it, he actually kinda outlived his welcome, literally, by three days! =P

Færd

But one might argue that not every ing indicates progression.

Cerberus

@Færd Mm perhaps, but I just don't feel it very strongly.

@Tonepoet How sad!

I don't know much about the Bible.

@Færd Oh, certainly not gerunds.

And this can be constructed either as a gerund (his coming) or a participle (him coming).

Færd

3:32 AM

Ah.

Cerberus

But it seems the two constructions blend together a bit in this case.

So perhaps it would make sense if the progressiveness of the participle reared its heads.

Færd

Didn't understand your last message.

The difference between the infinitive and the gerund is not always perceptible even by native speakers.

> But most likely this kind of distinction amounts to very, very fine-scale tuning for most English speakers, and in the right contexts, infinitive and gerund could be turned around with no ill effects.

(From this answer of Lawler's)

.

pearsonlongman.com/ae/azar/grammar_ex/message_board/archive/…

Cerberus

3:51 AM

Oops, a typo.

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