English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room - 2015-03-22 (page 1 of 2)

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12:00 AM

@fileunderwater You have to date voted on only 32 ELU postings! I have voted on more than 20,000 of them. That gross disparity of three orders of magnitude between us makes me absolutely certain that I stand in a superlatively better position than you do to view these matters from the appropriate perspective. Tell ya what: come back when you have hit 10,000 and then we’ll talk. Until then, you simply haven’t the perspective. — tchrist 5 mins ago

What a bloody whiner! This is the guy complaining that there aren’t enough upvotes, and he can’t even be arsed to vote himself. Hypocrite. @Reg was right.

3 hours later…

3:02 AM

Hi.

Hi.

How art thou?

We had "cocktails" at this horrible nouveau-riche place.

I drank beer.

Sober.

That's good, for a change.

This is the first alcohol I have consumed in a week.

My sleep was troubled again by dreams I should rather never repeat last night.

3:11 AM

What about?

My father dying. But his mother was still alive, and it was horrible her wailing.

And then the funeral all over again, with extra dead people.

Ugh.

That's bad.

I had to get up and do stuff for a while so I didn't fall back into it.

Understandable.

Something unexpected just set off an ancient flashback to 40 years ago or more, him taking us to Disney World. I am hacking because I need not to let my mind wander.

3:13 AM

Hacking?

Alpha coding.

Ah.

So you have just woken up?

No.

This was long ago.

Today.

4:30am.

Oh, okay.

It was 70 here today. I took a walk.

The longer you live, the more dead people you know.

3:15 AM

The cosmos is a coincidental collision of atoms. So at least bad things are meaningless too.

Meaning is in the mind of mender.

Quite so.

Unfortunately, that’s a two-edged sword.

In the telenovela, people keep shouting "calma, per favor, calma" at each other in a loud voice when they are mourning.

Or when the other person is simply distressed.

Very strange.

A cultural difference?

A weak script?

The latter.

3:18 AM

Or both...

Was it reflexive? It would have been hard to hear.

Cálmate.

Oh, I have no idea.

But the final -e is always silent, like French.

But it meant, "be calm".

So the /t/ is hard to hear.

The reflexive is more like settle down.

It would be inappropriate at a funeral.

3:19 AM

They said it in situations where I found it strange.

I would only say then when I felt it was really necessary for someone to calm down right then, right there.

I’m not sure. The Spanish say cálmate often enough, although just tranqui is the casual for tranquilízate, so chill.

"The neighbours can hear us", or "this drama is silly", or "you're getting hysterical".

Notice how tú imperatives retain the stem vowel, not switching to subjunctive and picking the other vowel.

So that is the same as Latin IIRC.

Yes.

When they switch the stem vowel, that is the 3rd person imperative, the formal one.

3:22 AM

I didn't know Portuguese changed vowels in the present subjunctive like Latin.

Everything does.

Well, that isn't true.

French is lost.

But those closer to Latin do.

I only know the French verbs actively.

Meaning indicatively?

What do you mean?

que tu vuilles and all that

3:24 AM

Yes, that I know.

veuilles

More or less.

Right, can't spell.

But not in Italian, let alone Spanish.

It's easier in PT/ES/IT.

The French can't spell.

Yep.

3:24 AM

Nor can the English...

lei vola < volare, but che lei voli in the subjunctive for Italian.

ella vuela < volar, but que ella vuele.

So switch stem.

The non-first conjugations therefore go back to a 1st conjugation -a- step for subjunctive.

Ah.

temer, temo = ella teme but que ella tema

vivir, vivo = ella vive but espero que ella viva

They’re all like that.

Basic model is switch between 1st and non-1st.

Or vice versa, depending where you started.

Look at all the inflections for pensar or pensare. That’s a good example to start from.

Verb: pensar (first-person singular indicative present penso, past participle pensáu)

to think
pensar (first-person singular present penso, past participle pensat)
pensar (first-person singular present penso, first-person singular preterite pensei, past participle pensado)
pensar (present tense pensas, past tense pensis, future tense pensos, imperative pensez, conditional pensus)
pensar

(6 more not shown…)

Verb: pensare (transitive or intransitive)

to think
pēnsāre
pensare

Notice how in all the others you can always see a vowel change in the stem. But French? Ptui.

Only in the 1&2 pl does it change in French.

And there it just mimics the imperfect for the present subjunctive. It’s a mess.

Apart from the irregulars, of course. Blah.

Verb: penser

to think
pēnser
penser
penser
Trop d'couques gâtent la soupe sans doute, et ché s'sait mus d'penser coumme tchi agrandi la pâte ou affêtchi la soupe au run d'hèrtchîngni tréjous pouor la manniéthe d'la cop'thie, ou la manniéthe dé couté ou d'dréch'rêsse.
penser

I don’t understand why they all say that that verb was "borrowed" from Latin.

borrow != inherit

This bothers me.

They just kept on saying it. It is not a loanword.

[ SmokeDetector ] Offensive answer detected: Conditional sentence about something that has happened in the past but we have no clue how it happened by user96718 on english.stackexchange.com

3:41 AM

@tchrist Right, just like Latin.

@tchrist Are you sure?

You can borrow a word from your ancestor.

Though not from your immediate ancestor.

@Cerberus No.

But why would all the Romance languages say it was borrowed from Latin?

They can’t have all suddenly decided to start saying it again, differently.

The DRAE suggests nothing of the sort.

Although that is not much proof.

lema.rae.es/drae/?val=pensar

They aren’t that good.

@tchrist Why not?

Perhaps the verb became popular in Latin in the 12th century and her children-languages picked it up one after the other.

Or perhaps it is just an inherited word and the Wiki is wrong.

It was used in 12th century Spanish.

Which, unlike 12th century English, I can actually read.

> Allí piensan de aguijar, allí sueltan las riendas.
A la exida de Bivar ovieron la corneja diestra
e entrando a Burgos oviéronla siniestra.
Meció mio Cid los ombros e engrameó la tiesta:
—¡Albricia, Álbar Fáñez, ca echados somos de tierra!—

Therefore, it was not a loanword, because that is the oldest work we have in Castilian.

Apart from small scraps.

4:00 AM

So at least it wasn't borrowed by Castilian, that we know.

Yes.

The original orthography still used -ss-.

> Allí pienssan de aguijar, — allí sueltan las riendas,
A la exida de Bivar, — ovieron la corneja diestra,
e entrando a Burgos — oviéronla siniestra.
Meçió mio Çid los ombros — y engrameó la tiesta:
«¡Albricia, Alvar Fáñez, — ca echados somos de tierra!
»mas a grand ondra — tornaremos a Castiella.»

> Quomo lo mandó mio Çid, — assí lo an todos ha far.
Passando va la noch — viniendo la man;
a los mediados gallos — pienssan de ensellar.

> Tornado es don Sancho, — e fabló Albar Fáñez:
«Si viéredes yentes venir — por connusco ir, abbat.
»dezildes que prendan el rastro — e pienssen de andar.
»ca en yermo o en poblado — poder nos han alcançar.»

And it is also in the Chanson de Roland.

> En France, ad Ais, devez bien repairer;
La vos sivrat, ço dit mis avoez.»
Li empereres tent (...) ses mains vers Deu,
Baisset sun chef, si cumencet a penser.

> Ki ço jugat, que doüsez aler
Par Charlemagne n’er(cs) guariz ne tensez.
355 Li quens Rollant nel se doüst penser,
Que estrait estes de mult grant parented.»

> Li emperere l’ad enchalcet asez.
Li reis mandet que vos le sucurez.
Quite vus cleimet d’Espaigne le regnet.»
E Baligant cumencet a penser;
Si grant doel ad por poi qu’il n’est desvet.

So I think Wiktionary is full of shit.

Probably.

Fix it?

Can't be bothered.

There are infinite wrongs in this world.

And righting a few of them changes nothing.

I find the Ki ço jugat spelling in Old French to be really weird.

K?

I haven’t read this in a very long time.

ling.upenn.edu/~rnoyer/courses/103/SongofRolandOldFrench.pdf

Lots of the old spelling are actually easier to read, because they hadn’t thrown away so much as now.

But there are also a lot of familiar words in it that are no longer used in French.

Yeah.

And, lo and behold, now k has returned to French.

It's all over chat rooms and text messages.

4:15 AM

Ick.

Kwa, vous dites?

Unthinkable.

And that saves them precisely what?

> Je ne sais pas kwa faire... : Forum Mes amours - Teemix

A random result.

Make it stop.

Make them stop.

By the way, don't you think we have the Romance languages divided nicely between us, you and I?

Or you and me, as you like it.

4:18 AM

I was unaware you knew Romanian. :)

Well, we have to keep a couple in reserve.

And Italy still needs some fighting over.

You take the Kingdom of the Two Sicilies, and I the Lega Nord?

Heh.

I must have Latium.

And the Savoy fits my French domains so nicely.

I rather think to keep Aquitaine for myself.

No violation of the hexagone!

Unless you speak Aquitanian.

4:22 AM

nibble nibble

Stop it, England!

You have tried and tried, for how many centuries?

At least four?

Well, Gascon is not so bad.

Or perhaps even six?

When were the last English outposts surrendered?

Calais?

Not that long ago.

I don’t suppose WW2 counts.

Plus Eleanor of Aquitaine was Queen of England and France. Just not at the same time. :)

Five of her children were held to be kings or queens. Or both.

> Six years later, on 7 January 1558, the French under Francis, Duke of Guise took advantage of a weakened garrison and decayed fortifications to retake Calais.[24] When the French attacked, they were able to surprise the English at the critical strongpoint of Fort Nieulay and the sluice gates, which could have flooded the attackers, remained unopened.[25] The loss was regarded by Queen Mary I of England as a dreadful misfortune. When she heard the news, she reportedly said, "When I am dead and opened, you shall find 'Philip' [her husband] and 'Calais' lying in my heart."[26]

So probably only four centuries.

4:28 AM

Not so long.

Consider when Holland last was Spanish. :)

Why not?

That was around that time.

Till 1714.

Um what?

Spanish Netherlands

Spanish Netherlands (Spanish: Países Bajos españoles; Dutch: Spaanse Nederlanden) is the collective name of States of the Holy Roman Empire in the Low Countries, held in personal union by the Spanish Crown (Habsburg Spain) from 1581 to 1714. This region comprised all of modern Belgium and Luxembourg, as well as parts of northern France and Germany. The Imperial fiefs of the former Burgundian Netherlands had been inherited by the Austrian House of Habsburg from the extinct House of Valois-Burgundy upon the death of Mary of Burgundy in 1482. The Seventeen Provinces formed the core of the Habsburg...

You are talking about the southern Netherlands now, I think?

4:29 AM

Well yes.

Yes, so that's not Holland.

Very well.

But I didn't know they still spoke Dutch in Calais in 1558.

user image

Guelderland?

Actually, it makes sense, since they still speak some Dutch in Duinkerken.

4:32 AM

Why is Upper Guelderland below Guelderland? Elevation?

@tchrist Never seen that spelling.

Besides, Gelderland was Gelre at that time.

I guess it was Belgium-er.

What?

Flanders etc.

What is "it"?

4:34 AM

They speak funny languages of the Channel Islands.

The Spanish Netherlands.

Opper-Gelre was called that because it was up the river and up the land, as opposed to the low countries.

The Upper Nile is in the south.

The Spanish Netherlands were Belgiumer?

Yes, up the Nile.

I look at the names of the cities.

I don't understand.

4:36 AM

Don’t worry about it. I am very very tired.

OK.

Bed time?

y

Short.

Don’t feel well suddenly. Pretty sure it was the mushroom soup I had for supper.

Oh, dear.

4:39 AM

Canned, not homemade.

Nauseous?

A little.

Light-headed?

I think I am growing lactose intolerant, which is new and pisses me off.

Ugh.

4:39 AM

I'm very tired. I wouldn't know on light-headed.

Cheese is fine.

But two glasses of milk make me not feel well.

Which I just kinda had.

Most unfortunate.

Ok yeah, that's it. Lots of burping.

Excuse me. Must um deal with this.

Good luck.

4:52 AM

I have just learned that contador = computer.

That's nice.

We have rekenaar in Dutch, but...

It's not used.

We try.

They're also saying something that sounds like "fuck não", translated as "no way!".

Maybe it's pac or peque or something.

I must come back to this thing they say. It sounds like "pecause o dish", translated much like "because of this".

Or I don't know.

Oh, and when they leave, I now hear "té ja", or something, "see you later!".

Now I hear "good", translated as "good". It fits the context. Are these Portuguese people crazy??

5 hours later…

10:22 AM

I could not understand the meaning of Initials here, Please help me!!

0

Q: Query on Application Declaration

In this document, it is told, Applicant must initial beside each statement and authorization to acknowledge agreement and then sign at the bottom of the page. in section M of page 23 as shown below: My question: I did not understand the meaning of Initials here. What exactly I need to do un...

canada immigration

10:51 AM

@overexchange You've got your answers on the Expatriates site. Initialling like that is just a condensed signature. What you are doing is a mini-signature instead of a full signature to indicate something.

2 hours later…

12:45 PM

0

Q: This phrase made me crazy where is the mistake!

It was the worst pain I've ever experienced (find the mistake )

phrases prepositional-phrase

@tchrist: ^^^

Evidence that your query still isn't going to find all the crap questions. ^_^

Maybe include "where + mistake" in the query?

12:56 PM

There are bound to be omissions or false positives in any query, although I suspect that "Why is where a mistake?" is likely to be a slightly better question than one with "Where is the mistake?"

Ironically there's no mistake in that particular question's sentence. But proofreading is off-topic; there are better ways of asking about that text.

@AndrewLeach Well, there's a mix up of tenses.

I commented. In this case the tenses have to be different.

He should have said [...] pain I'd ever experienced

Ah, sneaky.

No! I don't buy it @Andrew. It was the worst pain immediately suggests that it no longer is. You could just as well write The pain I felt ten years ago is the worst I've ever felt.

There's no reason for the past tense unless it is no longer applicable today.

anyone here want to read and critique the first chapter of my book?

@terdon I don't get that.

It was the worst pain I had ever experienced. -- pain now over, but surpassed since.

It is the worst pain I have ever experienced. -- pain still ongoing.

It was the worst pain -- pain stopped

...I have ever experienced. -- unsurpassed.

1:04 PM

@AndrewLeach Not necessarily ongoing. Last year's party is the best I've ever been to.

OK, I admit I would probably have said was there myself, but that doesn't mean it's right.

Dammit. I'm confused now. It shouldn't imply continuity but it kinda does.

Of course it does. The present tense is ... well ... present.

@AndrewLeach Stop that! That's way too reasonable.

I'm a reasonable man.

:-)

:)

OK, how about "Queen Victoria is still the best tennis player of all the British monarchs."

There, with the still, the present tense is natural.

You have introduced still though.

1:09 PM

@AndrewLeach So? I cheated.

That's unreasonable.

That's my point though, the tense should also work that way even if the absence of still makes it ambiguous.

But it doesn't. Still is required.

I see nothing wrong with Childbirth is the greatest pain I've ever felt.

Even without the still.

Perhaps that's because that pain is understood to be transitory, whereas a non-specific "it" could be anything.

1:11 PM

OK, but that means that, at least grammatically, it is correct.

However, it refers to a specific instance, whereas childbirth is general.

how about: This is the most boring discussion I've ever heard?

That's fine. We're still having it.

@AndrewLeach Huh?

Oh, did Jez say something? I have him on ignore.

Anyway, how about Yeah, childbirth hurt_. It's the greatest pain I've ever felt.

That's OK. And it mixes tenses.

1:14 PM

Yes

But does not suggest continuity.

That continuity is broken in this context by hurt in the previous sentence.

Grrr. True

OK, Childbirth hurts. It's the greatest pain I've ever felt.

Even with hurts, childbirth is transitory.

Change it to arthritis and it's ongoing.

I think that moving the subject to a different sentence is what makes it work.

@AndrewLeach Well, yes, but by definition. Not because the sentence's structure suggests it.

Exactly. That's the difference with childbirth.

Because arthritis is a chronic thing, using is means it's ongoing and the tense mismatch indicates that.

With just the bald sentence using it and no antecedent, the mixing of tenses is just as valid.

1:20 PM

@AndrewLeach grumble, grumble, mutter

You're doing a fine job of rebutting all my arguments. I still don't like it though :)

I've made up my mind, please don't confuse me with facts and all that.

I'll see if I can formulate it into a question . I mean, I agree with everything you said but I still feel there's something more to it.

There may be.

infinitesimal simplicio

hi guys :)

-_- zzz

?

@terdon I disagree. It was the worst pain I've ever experienced points to a different period of encompassing time than It was the worst pain I had ever experienced.

I find nothing objectionable whatsoever in ". . . was . . . I've ever" constructions.

infinitesimal simplicio

...

1:34 PM

@Robusto Of course. My problem was with It was the worst pain I've ever experience which would suggest that it no longer is. My point really is that It is the worst pain I've ever experience does not necessarily imply that the pain is ongoing.

@Robusto Neither do I, but the do suggest that it is no longer the case. She was the best I've ever seen suggests to me that she's either dead or not the best anymore.

No, it may only recognize that a single act (where she proved she was the best) is still in the past.

It's a pretty fine line.

That it is.

But in real speech, people mix and match was/is . . . have ever all the time.

It was the worst pain I've ever experienced can be read two ways: i) it used to be the worst pain but now I've had worse; ii) the pain is in the past and it's the worst I've felt.

@Robusto Of course, I certainly do anyway.

33 mins ago, by terdon

OK, I admit I would probably have said was there myself, but that doesn't mean it's right.

If I wanted to express the former condition specifically, I'd probably use was . . . had ever.

Most of the time, people get halfway into a sentence before they even begin to imagine they will have to reconcile temporal relativity.

1:41 PM

@terdon I cannot say that.

@Robusto Yes. Isn't it sad when bad things happen to good sentences?

36 mins ago, by terdon

OK, I admit I would probably have said was there myself, but that doesn't mean it's right.

@terdon You may blame your deity, if you have one, for that.

@Rob Thanks for the input yesterday, maybe language barrier or my personality made it look like I did not appreciate it.

@terdon What, you want me to read top down or bottom up?

@JohanLarsson De nada, mi amigo.

1:43 PM

@tchrist Whichever helps my point more. Obviously.

Because . . . chaos. — Robusto 9 secs ago

I'm voting to close this question as off-topic because it is about the pronunciation of foreign (i.e., biblical) names, not English. — Robusto 56 mins ago

user image

I don't see any reason why Yesterday's is the best party I've ever been to is wrong. Sounds strange, yes. Would I say it? Probably not. But it seems fine grammatically.

@tchrist What in the world is that?

Chicken.

Ah, yes, obviously.

1:46 PM

A quindeciceratops. But they gave up on Latin and went for Greek instead.

Kosmoceratops (from Ancient Greek κόσμος (kosmos "ornament, decoration"), κέρας (keras, "horn") and ὤψ (ōps, "face")) is a genus of herbivorous chasmosaurine ceratopsian dinosaur, which lived during the Late Cretaceous period (late Campanian) in the part of the island continent Laramidia that is now Utah, United States. Its fossils have been recovered from the Kaiparowits Formation in the Grand Staircase-Escalante National Monument. It was first named by Scott D. Sampson, Mark A. Loewen, Andrew A. Farke, Eric M. Roberts, Catherine A. Forster, Joshua A. Smith, and Alan L. Titus in 2010 along with...

@tchrist La máscara del Pollo

Not the Kosmo we know.

There's a nice word. In modern Greek, κόσμος means world.

Right, which is why it surprised me.

So if El Pollo referenced a proper name, as above, would you capitalize the article as well? La máscara Del Pollo?

1:47 PM

I wouldn’t.

I think the root is the same as for the modern word κόσμιο which means appropriate. It has some connotations of beauty as well.

@terdon Greek concepts often turn out to be very chauvinistic.

May 3 '12 at 1:54, by Robusto

Much is read into his most famously quoted line: "Man is by nature a political animal." Yet all he really meant by that is that man is a creature whose nature it is to live in a polis. His was essentially a parochial view.

:)

0

Q: Where do I place 'only'

Which of the following is/are correct? A. I only answered two questions. B. I answered only two questions. C. I answered two questions only.

Is a dupe.

Oh aye.

But I don’t have a gold only badge.

Do non-moderators have access to site stats like number of questions per day, number of visitors per day?

1:53 PM

@tchrist Hehe, yeah, I don't think anybody does.

And giving silvers duphammer won’t help with that one.

@tchrist Yes, there should be a SEDE query for that.

Thanks.

Why is there only?

@tchrist Here's one:

data.stackexchange.com/biology/query/259299/…

1:55 PM

Lonely tag.

"March comes in like a lion and goes out like a lamb." Yeah, right. This year it's come in like a polar bear and looks to be going out like a walrus.

@Robusto All fat and wobbly?

Or just singing cu-cu-cachu?

I thought that was goo-goo-goo-joob.

Maybe we should ask ELU what the correct spelling is.

@Robusto Huh, azlyrics seems to agree with you. I'd always heard that as a k sound.

@terdon Thanks. I sometimes wish their date expansion included the day of the week.

user image

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Mar '1522

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