English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

> First, why does it call itself a newspaper? Even when The Economist incorporated the Bankers' Gazette and Railway Monitor from 1845 to 1932, it also described itself as "a political, literary and general newspaper".

> It still does so because, in addition to offering analysis and opinion, it tries in each issue to cover the main events—business and political—of the week. It goes to press on Thursdays and, printed simultaneously in six countries, is available in most of the world's main cities the following day or soon after.

@Cerberus Just to be certain: we are talking about the size-format, right?

One never uses “tabloid” in any way that is not pejorative.

Cerberus

Yes, the size format.

Which has been linked to quality for a long time.

tchrist

Previous citation from the Economist FAQ.

Our weeklies are typically in small format, not large.

Alternative newspaper

An alternative newspaper is a type of newspaper, that eschews comprehensive coverage of general news in favor of stylized reporting, opinionated reviews and columns, investigations into edgy topics and magazine-style feature stories highlighting local people and culture. Their news coverage is more locally focused and their target audiences younger than those of daily newspapers. Typically, alternative newspapers are published in tabloid format and printed on newsprint. Other names for such publications include alternative weekly, alternative newsweekly, and alt weekly, as the majority ci...

Cerberus

7:32 PM

Which is why, the first day NRC Handelsblad came out in tabloid format, I posted on Facebook: Seems my NRC was not delivered today. To change the subject completely, I found this ugly tabloid in my letter-box. It must be some sort of advertising brochure. Of course I threw it away.

tchrist

Ours seems to have a lot of pot ads. Which is so amusing, because they kicked out the tobacco long ago.

Cerberus

They also changed the lay-out of the front page in such a way as to make it much less informative.

Pot ads, really?

tchrist

Well. . . .

Cerberus

I don't think that is allowed here. Except for pot accessories.

tchrist

I’m being a bit flip.

Yes, accessories.

Cerberus

7:34 PM

Like seed-growers or something.

tchrist

But also “medical dispensaries” cough-cough.

Cerberus

Haha yes.

We don't have that.

tchrist

I can’t find them in the online edition.

Oh wait, I have very aggressive ad-blocking, so I probably wouldn’t.

Cerberus

How would you look up the weight density of powder detergent?

tchrist

Do you think that it is constant?

Cerberus

7:36 PM

Usually it's easier to find information in English, but this time I could only find an answer quickly in Dutch.

I just want a general estimate.

tchrist

I would take a measuring stick to my box. :)

The big ones are heavy, though.

Cerberus

From a Dutch court order, I gathered that 0.83 g/ml is a reasonable, useful estimate.

Uhh I want to keep my hands clean, thank you.

tchrist

Aristotle. Teeth. Wife.

Cerberus

I prefer philosophy over dirty work, thank you very much.

tchrist

I have no idea what your measurement works out to.

Except that it is lighter than water.

A gallon of milk weighs eight pounds. The containers of detergent hold more than that, and are quite heavy.

@Cerberus So you just believe other people. Not good.

Cerberus

7:43 PM

I have a box that says 1.26 kg, and it tells me to use 35–70 ml for one load of laundry (I forgot what weight they specified). Depending on how dirty it is.

> This comparison of ministers to slaves is inappropriate.

> This comparison between ministers and slaves is inappropriate.

@tchrist Which would you prefer?

tchrist

That is very strange.

Our boxes come with a little scoop. You are supposed to use half a scoop for this-and-that kind of load and a full scoop for that-and-this kind of load. The notion of weighing it is nutty. Plus hopelessly inaccurate.

@Cerberus Milk, generally.

Cerberus

I just want to have some idea of how much I should use.

tchrist

You should use anywhere between a half-scoop and a full one.

That way you do not have suffer the idiocies of climate control is a boggy country.

Cerberus

?

Weight is more accurate than volume in that the grains of the powder can be stacked in different ways.

tchrist

You do not want to weigh things. The weight fluctuates.

That is why they give you the scoop.

Cerberus

7:50 PM

I you shake your scoop, the volume will be decreased by as much as 20 %.

tchrist

And nobody has a fucking scale here, I keep telling you. We have cups. We use them.

No, I do not believe that the volume changes.

Cerberus

Right. None of this is relevant for me, but thanks for your diatribe.

tchrist

I can shake my scoop all I like. The level does not change.

Maybe you have a fluffier stuff than we have.

If you lose 20% of the volume just by shaking. What we use does not do that.

Cerberus

Tap on the bottom.

I'm going to use a scoop and eyeball it, but it didn't come with a scoop, so I will have to have some idea of how much powder I should put in the scoop. It doesn't have any markings.

Or maybe it does.

tchrist

I will go and test.

But wait, yours did not come with any indication of how much to use?

That seems dumb.

They must want you to use too much then, so that you will have to get more sooner than you should.

Cerberus

7:54 PM

As I said, 35–70 ml.

Andrew Leach

Just buy liquid detergent. They come with a graduated cap.

Cerberus

I have liquid now, but I hate the caps. I just pour it in at sight.

tchrist

I thought they all did.

Cerberus

However, liquid is sort of bad for your machine.

So I read everywhere.

tchrist

If you just eyeball it, you are playing into their evil plan to make you use more than you need.

Cerberus

7:56 PM

Powder is better, because, contrary to what you might expect, it is easier to dissolve.

I measured it once, then based by eyeballing on that.

So I'm not using too much.

Andrew Leach

Liquid is better in a hard-water area, I think, because it's synthetic.

tchrist

"Synthetic"?

Cerberus

Synthetic? Isn't it all synthetic?

I think we have medium-hard water.

Andrew Leach

That is, not real soap.

Cerberus

At any rate, everyone says "use powder".

So that is what I shall do.

tchrist

7:57 PM

I read that people normally use many times the detergent they need. The amount they tell you to use is for heavily soiled stuff.

Cerberus

Yes.

Andrew Leach

I've never got any powder to rinse well.

Cerberus

And people often use even more than prescribed.

Powder, to rinse?

tchrist

I know someone how insisted on liquid because he couldn’t get the powder to rinse well.

Cerberus

How do you mean? It is not dissolved properly?

I have never heard of that.

tchrist

7:58 PM

Turns out he was way overloading his washer. But adding the extra rinse cycle fixed even that.

Yes, it will not dissolve if there is not enough room for the clothes to move around.

Cerberus

Right.

But then the liquid will not be spread equally either.

tchrist

But he never notices that.

What can I say? Not me.

At first I thought you meant dishwashing detergent, not laundry detergent.

Cerberus

At any rate, my clothes are always clean; there is no problem. I am only concerned with the longevity of my machine, and everyone says to use powder. So there.

I use powder in my dishwasher too.

tchrist

Your clothes are always clean because you don’t get into mud-fights with pigs, then discard your overalls into a pile for two weeks.

Cerberus

Indeed not.

And I should like to keep it that way.

Andrew Leach

8:00 PM

My washing machine is 25 years old. It's just about coming up to replacement because it's stopped taking in hot water and one spin cycle doesn't spin.

Cerberus

Oh, dear.

Mine is 2 years old.

What brand?

I have a Siemens. A washer-dryer in one.

Andrew Leach

Mine is a Hotpoint washer/dryer; supposedly one of the more unreliable brands.

Cerberus

Haha never heard of that brand.

Andrew Leach

It's British.

Cerberus

And yet it has held out for two decades and a half!

Andrew Leach

8:02 PM

Yup.

Cerberus

Do you see this too?

Andrew Leach

Nope. Everything's in the right order.

Cerberus

Odd.

After a refresh:

Chat is just unreliable like that.

tchrist

@AndrewLeach Aren’t all washer-driers unreliable? Those have a very bad name here, and nobody has them.

Cerberus

By the way, do they sell Indesit in England?

tchrist

8:04 PM

Again with the indecent questions!

Andrew Leach

Yes; and I have no idea.

Not necessarily in that order.

Cerberus

I have heard people say that Indesit washing machines (and washer-dryers) are almost as good as A brands, and half the price.

@tchrist They often break down sooner; but not that soon, and it only becomes a real issue if you have a family with lots of children. I use mine maybe once a week. Moreover, if you use the same machine for both washing and drying, you use it twice as much, so no wonder it will break down sooner!

tchrist

Is this because you live in a little teeny tiny apartment?

Andrew Leach

Need to go. I'll catch up on washing machines later...

Cerberus

Another disadvantage is that you can only dry half as many kgs in one load, because the drying compartment is of course the same size as the washing compartment.

tchrist

8:07 PM

Huh?

More weight weirdnesses. Never heard of it.

Do you normally wash two loads and dry one?

Or vice versa?

I do not understand.

Cerberus

@tchrist I have enough space for several such machines. And you could even stack one on top of the other. But I picked this one because it is 1.) cheaper, 2.) required only a single exhaust pipe; and 3.) I can put dirty laundry in the machine, go to bed, and wake up to dry & clean laundry! It is perfect, I would never want to go back.

@tchrist A normal dryer is twice as large as a washing machine, the compartments. (Not the outside, obviously.)

tchrist

Single exhaust pipe? Surely the air and water vent differently.

@Cerberus Huh? No, I promise you that here they are identical.

Oh, well, maybe the inside volume. I dunno.

Cerberus

@tchrist Dryers vent lots of water.

No air.

tchrist

But the outside volume is the same: both have exactly the same outside dimensions.

Steam.

Cerberus

Or, rather, the air is just vented into the room, no problem—except when you have no exhaust dryer (most older dryers are not): then you get a steam room. I don't.

@tchrist Yes, exactly.

tchrist

8:10 PM

I thought they had to have an external exhaust?

Cerberus

Nope.

tchrist

The ones I know, do.

Cerberus

Well, "external" as into into a water-thingie that you just put on top of it or something: all the exhaust water and air end up in the room with older dryers.

Mine condensates all the water internally.

tchrist

We have exhaust vents to the outside of the house.

Cerberus

Older dryers vent all that water into the room.

tchrist

8:12 PM

I cannot imagine it venting internally.

Cerberus

Yeah, okay, you could build a vent that goes through the wall/roof.

tchrist

I wonder whether there aren’t laws about that.

Cerberus

Why?

tchrist

Civil codes.

Cerberus

It's just water.

Just very annoying.

Some of the water is trapped in the water-basket-thingy, but your bathroom will still be a steam room.

So anyway, I recommend a washer-dryer to anyone who doesn't have a large family.

tchrist

8:14 PM

I think it has to go outside here, by law.

Cerberus

I doubt it.

But anyway, you should get a modern dryer.

Building a ventilation shaft will be more expensive than the whole machine, I would imagine!

tchrist

I don’t.

Read this.

This is subject to civil codes.

Here is better.

It cites actual codes.

> International Residential Code (IRC) SECTION M1502 CLOTHES DRYER EXHAUST guidelines: M1502.5 Duct construction. Exhaust ducts shall be constructed of minimum 0.016-inch-thick (0.4 mm) rigid metal ducts, having smooth interior surfaces, with joints running in the direction of air flow. Exhaust ducts shall not be connected with sheet-metal screws or fastening means which extend into the duct.

You wil not pass inspection if you are not up to code.

It’s the law here.

Doubt dispelled.

> Information on the dryer venting system is outlined in the book "2009 International Residential Code for One- and Two- Family Dwellings," published by the International Code Council. The maximum allowable length of the dryer vent is 25 feet. A 45 degree bend in the vent will reduce the total allowable length by 2 1/2 feet and likewise a 90 degree bend will reduce it by 5 feet. Clothes dryer manufacturers set maximum allowable height requirements that may differ between models.

Dryer Vent Code Requirements

> Setting up your new dryer involves ensuring your venting system for the dryer is up to residential coding requirements. While you may think sticking a dryer hose from the dryer to an outside window is adequate, it's not. New and remodeled homes, apartment buildings and businesses containing dryer units must adhere to your state's residential code requirements regarding proper ventilation of dryer exhaust.

Cerberus

I don't know why you are going on about this.

Get a modern dryer or washer-drying.

tchrist

Wrong.

Cerberus

No air exhaust needed.

tchrist

8:21 PM

Whatever. Around here, we have little things called laws.

Cerberus

There is no hose.

It doesn't exist.

It only has a thin water exhaust, like any washingmachine.

tchrist

That isn’t a “modern” dryer, and I find the allegation insulting.

Cerberus

It is a modern dryer.

My parents used to have one with an air exhaust.

tchrist

Clothes dryer

A clothes dryer, tumble dryer, or drying machine is a household appliance that is used to remove moisture from a load of clothing and other textiles, generally shortly after they are cleaned in a washing machine. Most dryers consist of a rotating drum called a tumbler through which heated air is circulated to evaporate the moisture from the load. The tumbler is rotated to maintain air space between the articles in the load. Using these machines may cause clothes to shrink or become less soft (due to loss of short soft fibers/lint). For these reasons, as well as to save energy, many peopl...

> Gas dryers must always be vented outdoors, as the products of combustion are mixed with the moist air. Building codes and manufacturers' instructions usually recommended that dryers vent outdoors. An indoor lint trap kit poses a similar concern of increased humidity within the dwelling.

"Dryers expose flammable materials to heat." That’s why there are civil building codes.

> In the United States, the U.S. Fire Administration[11] in a 2007 report estimated that clothes dryer fires account for about 15,600 structure fires, 15 deaths, and 400 injuries annually, with 80% (12,700) of the fires in residential buildings.

15,600 structure fires due to dryers. You’d better believe you need codes.

Cerberus

Clothes dryer

A clothes dryer, tumble dryer, or drying machine is a household appliance that is used to remove moisture from a load of clothing and other textiles, generally shortly after they are cleaned in a washing machine. Most dryers consist of a rotating drum called a tumbler through which heated air is circulated to evaporate the moisture from the load. The tumbler is rotated to maintain air space between the articles in the load. Using these machines may cause clothes to shrink or become less soft (due to loss of short soft fibers/lint). For these reasons, as well as to save energy, many peopl...

This is what you want. Heat-pump dryers are of course even better, but they are much more expensive, I believe.

Condensation dryers are not expensive.

tchrist

8:27 PM

This is what everyone has in their homes.

The vent will be in the back, leading outside.

However, you do not have to pass building inspection just to set up a clothes line.

> Indoor venting may also be against local regulations.

It is not a choice.

Cerberus

bcc.nl/indesit-idcag35bec.html

See the Wiki article on ventless dryers.

tchrist

I have never in my life seen anybody with a ventless dryer. Ever. And I have seen thousands of homes.

Cerberus

Since they are only maybe € 70 more expensive than vent drawers, why bother with a vent? And they use less energy too!

People have ventless dryers here as well as vented dryers. I wouldn't know about proportions.

tchrist

It just is not what people have. I have never seen one.

Cerberus

But vent dryers are sort of dying out, I believe. Slowly.

tchrist

8:31 PM

So are we all.

Cerberus

I think you save so much on energy that ventless dryers will be cheaper after a few years of use.

And you can has a combo!

tchrist

Sounds like the Jetsons.

Cerberus

Indeed.

tchrist

I remember all these weirdass appliances in Germany.

Cerberus

Oh, and a combo is cheaper too!

tchrist

8:33 PM

Never seen anything like ’em.

Japan had them, too.

I attributed it to WW2. :)

Cerberus

No combos?

bcc.nl/indesit-iwde7145.html#technical-specifications-table

Something like this is what you want.

You will never need to touch wet clothes ever again!

puts on Indesit hat

And that for just € 350!

tchrist

@Cerberus Never seen one, no.

Cerberus

Hmm odd.

tchrist

Not in America. I saw them in Germany and Japan, and attributed it to overcrowding.

Cerberus

I don't know. Not having to wait, move wet clothes to dryer, wait again is great.

tchrist

8:48 PM

I simply haven’t seen it. I make no claims of convenience.

tchrist

9:12 PM

Is it just me, or is this one of those veiled political questions/statement/agendas?

-2

Q: Wha does "well regulated" mean, and could it have meant anything different in the past?

What does "well regulated" mean? Especially in relation to, say, a militia? Would this definition have been different some years ago - say in 1776?

meaning

Certainly its understand of history is completely wrong.

It’s off by 15 years, if nothing else.

I have to go turn off NPR. There is an annoying debate raging right now about this very thing; I wonder whether that isn’t what sparked the question?

These gun nuts so piss me off.

Unfortunately not everyone is thinking fast enough.

Or thinking at all.

Cerberus

It's what happens when you colonise a new continent.

The dreaded Frontier Mentality...

But I have to go. Bai!

tchrist

I do not think that is it. Maybe in the Old West, but not here and now. But I do not understand it, so I don’t know.

theUg

9:32 PM

I could be a legit question. Regulated meant trained (see Hamilton’s notes on that) and organized by the state. It is two-fold question of history, and usage of the word "regulation” (e. g. regular army).

tchrist

Wouldn’t that be out of scope?

theUg

Historical use of the word would be within scope. A lot of people would not put two and two together. And if that is put ina neutral academic way, it could be very valuable. I am reading Federalist #29 right now.

tchrist

Good for you.

theUg

9:50 PM

I’m just trying to find specific break down of "regulation”. It is clear that he is talking about the militia that adheres to national standards as approved by Congress, where the actual training and appointment of officers is left to the individual states.

Ha, just like nowadays:

> The same persons who tell us in one breath, that the powers of the federal government will be despotic and unlimited, inform us in the next, that it has not authority sufficient even to call out the POSSE COMITATUS.

tchrist

10:05 PM

Why would anything every change? :(

@Robusto Hah! I’ve just given out 8 (or 9, or 11) conditionals. That should plug up all the silly First/Second/Third Conditional people. :)

0

A: What is the correct way to construct conditional sentence with “would”?

It is true that If X would do this, then Y would do that. is not Standard English. You often hear it in non-native speakers from a Germanic background. But you sometimes hear it in native speakers, too. It still is not considered Standard English. The standard conditional forms are the fo...

theUg

10:22 PM

History, repeating itself since time immemorial:

> In reading many of the publications against the Constitution, a man is apt to imagine that he is perusing some ill-written tale or romance, which instead of natural and agreeable images, exhibits to the mind nothing but frightful and distorted shapes "Gorgons, hydras, and chimeras dire"; discoloring and disfiguring whatever it represents, and transforming everything it touches into a monster.

Hmm, contumacy is a new word for me.

But, I’m a foreigner, what do I know?

tchrist

Hey!

It’s a fancy word.

What sentence did you find it in?

Most native speakers don’t know it either.

I’ve only heard it in legal contexts.

Like when there is a contempt of court finding. Somebody not doing what they’re told.

theUg

> At one moment there is to be a large army to lay prostrate the liberties of the people; at another moment the militia of Virginia are to be dragged from their homes five or six hundred miles, to tame the republican contumacy of Massachusetts; and that of Massachusetts is to be transported an equal distance to subdue the refractory haughtiness of the aristocratic Virginians

tchrist

Well!

theUg

Ergo, contemptuous Bostonians?

tchrist

OED 1: Perverse and obstinate resistance of or disobedience to authority; rebellious stubbornness.

theUg

10:29 PM

Bostonians, indeed.

tchrist

OED 1b: rarely in good or neutral sense: Refusal to comply, obstinate resistance. Obs.

OED 3: Law. Wilful disobedience to the summons or order of a court. to put in contumacy: to pronounce (in legal form) contumacious.

OED 4: 4 An act or instance of wilful disobedience.

That’s all.

Oh, I forgot 2.

OED 2: Of diseases, etc.: Reluctance to yield to treatment; stubborn or unyielding nature. Obs.

theUg

Yea, I was trying to figure out why numbers were aff.

tchrist

There are no 20th-century citations in the 1987 version I’m looking at.

The first citation is Chaucer.

It is straight out of Latin, so probably was more common when more of the educated class had studied Latin.

theUg

Another one: superadded.

tchrist

Hm.

theUg

10:34 PM

> If the power of affording it be placed under the direction of the Union, there will be no danger of a supine and listless inattention to the dangers of a neighbor, till its near approach had superadded the incitements of selfpreservation to the too feeble impulses of duty and sympathy.

tchrist

Sentence?

theUg

Do you have unabridged OED subscription?

tchrist

Sometimes.

Right now I have the 1987 text.

There was a network problem with the school library for live access last I checked.

theUg

I wonder if my school is subscribet. I need to ventilate that question.

tchrist

It looks like superadded most commonly just means an emphatic kind of add, like over and on top of.

Lots of 17th century citations on that one. :)

theUg

10:36 PM

Some sort of XVIII hipster slang.

XVIII-century*

tchrist

And once again, straight out of Latin.

superaddĕre

OED 1: trans. To add over and above; to add to what has been added; to put as a further addition. Often a mere strengthening of add: To add besides; ‘to join any thing extrinsick’ (Johnson).

theUg

Ah, from the album of Virginians with Attitude.

Straight Outta of Latin, yo

tchrist

Ayah.

Are you another of those hypereducated Russians?

theUg

No, I just live in Idaho now, so I know your pop culture. :)

tchrist

Ah.

You cannot fool me.

I have been to Idaho.

They do not pop there. :)

theUg

10:38 PM

We’re not all yahoos here, y’know.

tchrist

I know, I know. Some of the folks I worked with there are just fine. Most of them, in fact. It is just the news stories that were scary.

theUg

Sure, I go to trucking school, but there is still enlightenment, hidden away in remote barns.

Ah, the Citadel? :)

tchrist

Do not feel compelled to share your private life with strangers. :)

Especially things hidden away in remote barns involving truckers. :)

theUg

I want to make a trip there on my bike this summer, to get my socialist arse to geek at their promised stone wall.

tchrist

You realize, I hope, that your use of socialist and anything they might understand by that term might as well be two utterly unrelated things.

theUg

10:41 PM

They said, no commis, but I am sure I shan’t be shot if I stay outside the perimeter.

Just like current liberal and classic lberal as in Liberal American Revolution are vastly different, I know.

tchrist

Gawds teefe.

theUg

And that socialist and liberal are dirrectly oppose one another on many issues. At least were.

tchrist

They have forgotten that you cannot have liberty without liberal thought.

Liberal has become a curse-word.

theUg

But you can have liberty and freedom, yeah!

So is socialist.

tchrist

Try “progressive”. It is a little less apt to get you shot.

No guarantees.

It’s what I use, and God knows how often they’ve wanted to shoot me.

theUg

10:44 PM

It’s all semantics. For them it is how they want, not some freedom-centric ideology. big government this, big government that, but it is they who are sticking ultrasound probes in every which vagina.

They said, no progressives, either.

Just like Reagan lauded Polish trade unions when they were opposing Soviets, and at the same time dismatling his own.

tchrist

> “Hello,” he lied.

theUg

Do they or did they ever use this glyph in English: № ?

tchrist

Of course.

It’s the NUMERO SIGN.

I think that’s its name.

It used to be fairly common.

theUg

Cool. I just want to make sure it is understood when I use it. I find it a lot more suitable than #

tchrist

How come? You afraid they might think you mean pounds? :)

#4 is much more common, perhaps by ten-thousandfold, than №.

I had a boss once who really hated №, because he never could figure out what the superscript o was for.

theUg

10:55 PM

But could he understand No.?

tchrist

Sure. It just annoyed him.

He said it should be "Nr." if it meant "number". :)

Poor guy.

But "No." used be super common.

theUg

Well, tell him, founding fathers wrote it that way.

chatkillah

@tchrist yep.

poof

theUg

11:19 PM

So, there:

0

A: Wha does "well regulated" mean, and could it have meant anything different in the past?

Indeed, a definition of regulation as “a rule or directive made and maintained by an authority” (OED) applies here as well. To put it in historical context, Federalist №29 (Concerning the Militia) was authored by Alexander Hamilton who put forth contra-arguments to those opposed the idea of 2nd ...

I hope it is enough parts language, and not too much history to keep it within the scope.

I just wanted to give enough background.

theUg

11:33 PM

Ha-ha, weefil. Even I went for the long s immediately, before seeing the picture.

tchrist

11:59 PM

@theUg I’m thinking the OP died of embarrassment.

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