English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

user19161

12:24 AM

@cornbreadninja Well, RR did mention he would quit. That comment is deleted now.

Matt Эллен

7:49 AM

Welcome back @Jasper :)

user19161

@MattЭллен It's too hard to quit. :-)

Matt Эллен

so I see!

user19161

@MattЭллен I did some rep-whoring with the photoshop question!

Matt Эллен

I saw. I don't understand the question, myself. It is worded in a way that doesn't make sense or lend itself to the answers given

user19161

@MattЭллен I edited the question a bit just now to remove the nomenclature part. Nomenclature does not make sense.

Matt Эллен

8:06 AM

> There is a fair amount of chance for recent terminology to be associated with a fake photograph.

that does not make sense

there is not a fair amount of chance for recent terminology to be associated with a fake photograph

that just doesn't make sense

user19161

@MattЭллен That was not his original wording though. I edited it but did not want to change too much.

Matt Эллен

I know, I saw the history, but the original doesn't make sense either

user19161

It means he thinks there is some term for fake photographs coined recently.

user19161

Just a way of adding some context to his question.

Matt Эллен

He probably does, given the title

user19161

8:09 AM

What I do is read the title, read the body, and guess the intention of the OP from these before answering.

Matt Эллен

Oh! I think I can understand it

user19161

A holistic approach, hehe.

Matt Эллен

a recent terminology is meant to be countable

if you make is uncountable thngs stop making sense

a recent term

user19161

Does not matter, the countability.

Matt Эллен

is there a recently coined word or phrase that means fake photograph

@JasperLoy it totally does, with uncountability the first sentence is nonsense

user19161

8:11 AM

I expect to cap today, 60 more points to fo.

user19161

@MattЭллен Really? It just means set of words in that case.

Matt Эллен

@JasperLoy recent terminology mean any new terminology. any. anything new that is terminology. most recent terminology is not associated with fake photography. The sentence is false and thus nonsense.

also that makes the body of the question "What is a word for recent terminology being associated with fake photography?"

that is not the question, if the answer is doctored

user19161

@MattЭллен Whatever! Anyway you may re-edit the question if you want. I hope we have not misunderstood it.

Matt Эллен

ugh. I need more joy in my life. this sort of thing shouldn't wind me up

user19161

Actually my whatever means I don't get what you are saying, but nvm.

user19161

8:17 AM

Actually I think I get you and that you did not get the alternate way to parse it.

user19161

Over and out!

RegDwight ΒВB

9:12 AM

Apr 8 '11 at 18:07, by psmears

@Kosmonaut It was a source of much hilarity to us as children (growing up in the south of England) when my sister asked my father how to spell "furry", and he (from Liverpool) responded by asking, "Do you mean furry like a teddy bear, or a furry that grants wishes?"

So, did @Robusto marry a teddy bear or does his wife grant wishes?

@Cerberus this room already contains that picture. Posted either by Mr Shiny or myself. Too lazy to search. But thanks anyway.

Matt Эллен

9:27 AM

furry fairy! it's the next logical step in evolution

RegDwight ΒВB

Evolution is logical? When did that happen? Another day, another missed memo.

Matt Эллен

logic is what happens when the universe does stuff

RegDwight ΒВB

In that case I have a nice video of logic.

►

Matt Эллен

LOL

ah the hoff, the universe only has to be logical to itself

RegDwight ΒВB

Jul 31 '11 at 16:27, by RegDwight

@Cerberus You can say whatever you want about The Hoff, and God knows I have, but. He always manages to put a smile on my face. If that ain't worth something, then "worth" has no meaning.

Matt Эллен

9:43 AM

I am single, but I'm not ready to mingle.

I'm never ready to mingle

Matt Эллен

10:09 AM

net canstroctove

0

Q: "Yor first bookshelf" for a non-native speaker

I have a question of somewhat different kind, not grammar related but rather about learning English in general. I am learning English mostly from reading books. But my choice of books is quite random. So, I decided to ask this great community for the list of books one have to read to get themsel...

learning

RegDwight ΒВB

11:06 AM

> English SE has not panned out as an "expert-level" site. There is very little pretense that this site is only for advanced users discussing on the "finer points" of the English language.

Well guess what. That's exactly why the ESL proposal is there.

That's like a car mechanic saying, "I won't fix your car, it's broken!"

Matt Эллен

11:26 AM

:D

We want an expert level site, but because the one we set up isn't being used as one we can't have one. I see.

RegDwight ΒВB

I would also like to see the reciprocity figures for SO.

> In contrast, an ESL site is setting itself up as a core group of teachers willing to help a site full of beginning learners. There will be little, if any, reciprocity.

Matt Эллен

lunches

RegDwight ΒВB

That is exactly what SO is.

A couple hundred experts answering question after question, and millions of beginners asking question after question, without bothering to learn from the answers they already have.

And yet it works.

So why shouldn't it work for ESL?

I only have this old data:

21

A: What is the "reciprocity" of Stack Overflow?

Data for Feb 2011: Site Peeps Askers Ansrrs Both Reciprocity Skeptics 60 34 51 25 42% Quantitative 147 88 103 44 30% Project Mana 133 60 109 36 27% Code Golf 160 55 147 4...

KitFox

11:43 AM

Morning.

How did I get so starred?

RegDwight ΒВB

It was a starry night.

KitFox

Starry, starry night. Paint your palette blue and grey.

Look out on a summer's day with eyes that know the darkness in my soul.

@RegDwightΒВB Looks like an answer justifying 21% reciprocity to me.

RegDwight ΒВB

ESL probably might never reach 2.1%.

But that's not the point.

The other part is more important.

> None of these metrics is really strong enough to base policy on, so publishing the numbers regularly or even using them to drive policy in Area51 is probably not warranted.

I'm trying to run that query for SO right now BTW.

The site's so huge it keeps timing out.

KitFox

I disagree. Language learners have a unique perspective on the language they study. Other, perhaps more experienced, language learners can offer answers in a context that native speakers simply lack, and at the same time are likely to ask more advanced questions of their own. Sounds like ground ripe for reciprocity to me. — KitFox 14 secs ago

Robusto

@RegDwightΒВB 妻は天使です。

RegDwight ΒВB

11:54 AM

That doesn't answer the question.

KitFox

I think that means she grants wishes.

RegDwight ΒВB

An angel can't be a teddy bear?

I've heard otherwise.

Robusto

@RegDwightΒВB No angels are teddy bears. QED.

RegDwight ΒВB

Damn I can't argue with absence of logic.

Robusto

A serious flaw in your political aspirations.

What's the "multi-collider"? — FumbleFingers 8 hours ago

I think FF needs to visit chat more often.

Matt Эллен

11:57 AM

@KitFox I agree

RegDwight ΒВB

Oh but that got requested and rejected before.

... which is what Cerberus kind of says in his answer.

Robusto

Well, I was surprised FF hadn't seen that question, oh, say, ten months ago already.

KitFox

Maybe he did and it took him this long to read it.

RegDwight ΒВB

Damn, looks like I'm not getting anything for SO out of SEDE.

Robusto

@RegDwightΒВB Still, I think it's a pretty good idea. It's kind of like a rug we would get to sweep our dirt under.

RegDwight ΒВB

12:02 PM

Of course it is a good idea. It was so good I had it.

Well not sure who actually had it first, but at least I posted it.

We were brainstorming in this very room.

15

A: Should EL&U be removed from the multicollider, etc.?

The mods have previously agreed that whenever a question is dealing with an "offensive" term, we protect it as soon as we see it. Pre-emptively. So, one idea we just had in chat would be to take protected questions off the Collider (and the cross-site ads, and the Twitter feed). Wholesale. Afte...

Bah some harsh comments there.

I forgot how much grass I let grow in all this time.

Oh come on, stupid SEDE won't let me run the query for just one day on SO.

How many questions are they having?

Robusto

@RegDwightΒВB You are such a credit whore.

RegDwight ΒВB

Stop stealing my lines.

KitFox

Hahaha

Robusto

@RegDwightΒВB I knew you were going to say that.

RegDwight ΒВB

Yo @Vit I keep forgetting to ask, you still playing? Same faction?

Robusto

12:10 PM

Yeah, speaking of WMT, is our faction disbanded now? Too lazy to check.

RegDwight ΒВB

@Robusto that line was so clearly devised by me, it hurts. I mean, come on, it anagrams to "this is what Reg had to say once".

Robusto

1 min ago, by Robusto

@RegDwightΒВB I knew you were going to say that.

RegDwight ΒВB

@Robusto It got disbanded right before I left for Turkey. Meeting incredible resistance from Cerberus.

He wouldn't understand my reasons.

Robusto

Wut? Resistance from the absentee landlord?

RegDwight ΒВB

Yeah. That's what I said.

I mean, come on now, that line is really stolen.

Matt Эллен

12:13 PM

but how can Robusto steal the words? doesn't he get royalties for all of them?

RegDwight ΒВB

Jun 13 at 22:02, by Cerberus

@RegDwightΒВB So you're disbanding PhC for no reason?

Vitaly

@RegDwightΒВB Yeah and yeah.

KitFox

Hi @Vitaly!

Robusto

@MattЭллен Good point. I just pulled up @Reg's account and find it is drastically in arrears.

Vitaly

Hi.

Matt Эллен

12:14 PM

(0_0)

Robusto

Hiya @Vit. How's life in the WMT fast lane? Still holding your interest?

RegDwight ΒВB

@MattЭллен well do you have any indication of him paying himself? Do you? Do you?

Matt Эллен

I do not

RegDwight ΒВB

QED

Robusto is an autostealer.

Vitaly

@Robusto Ohio is now leading the faction, so yeah, I'm wondering where this all goes.

RegDwight ΒВB

12:16 PM

Oh my.

Per astra ad aspera.

Vitaly

@RegDwightΒВB Chatzy. :D

RegDwight ΒВB

OH MY.

I hope I still have the link and my credentials.

Matt Эллен

General Reference;

0

Q: Cleanse vs Clean

Do you know what is the difference between Cleanse and Clean? As verbs and as nouns I don't have very clear when I have to use one or the other and if there is some key difference I'm not aware of.

word-choice differences word-usage

KitFox

ELULite.

Matt Эллен

very much so

Robusto

12:22 PM

@RegDwightΒВB Actually, "I knew you were going to say that" anagrams to "You know that wee reg is into gay."

7

Matt Эллен

lol

Robusto

@RegDwightΒВB Grand Auto-Theft. My take on a classic game.

RegDwight ΒВB

What's a conurtation?

KitFox

RegDwight ΒВB

That's not a conurtation.

KitFox

12:27 PM

@JSB Thought you would dig this.

Conurtation is when two people care for each other.

Robusto

@KitFox You can spare us the Disney version. We know what it really means.

KitFox

Well Reg didn't.

Matt Эллен

it's not in the OED

RegDwight ΒВB

I have 2520 Google hits.

> Does Backstreet boys have a similar conurtation to Pet Shop Boys Gavin?

Matt Эллен

or at dictionary.com

@RegDwightΒВB that's a mispelin of connotation

RegDwight ΒВB

12:31 PM

Yes, but why?

KitFox

Redneck dialect.

Matt Эллен

because people spell like they speak, sort of

RegDwight ΒВB

I can't begin to imagine a world in which people would pronounce "not" as "urt".

Those that would wouldn't use the word "connotation" to begin with.

Matt Эллен

what about no't and nur't

RegDwight ΒВB

Also, since when is South East England a redneck state?

KitFox

12:35 PM

There's no "not" in con-no-ta-tion.

RegDwight ΒВB

@KitFox an observant observant will also observe that there is no "urt" in it, either.

KitFox

Mmmm, yurts.

Matt Эллен

co nur tay shon sounds like con no ta tion

they just got closer than complete pseudo-phonetics

KitFox

sure does.

RegDwight ΒВB

Well even if I give you that, what could the word "conurt" possibly mean?

Matt Эллен

12:37 PM

connote

RegDwight ΒВB

No.

Look at the word.

Matt Эллен

listen to the sound

RegDwight ΒВB

I've done that. You miss my point.

Matt Эллен

you apparently miss mine too

RegDwight ΒВB

No I got it alright.

Robusto

12:38 PM

@RegDwightΒВB What part of "South" don't you understand?

Matt Эллен

then what is yours?

RegDwight ΒВB

@MattЭллен mine is, suppose I really think the word is "conurt", judging by the sound. When I write it down, wouldn't I one fine day stop to think what its morphology is?

"Con-note" is self-explanatory. "Con-urt" is so strange I would feel compelled to look it up ASAP.

Matt Эллен

ah, but you're not a native speaker.

RegDwight ΒВB

Irrelevant.

Matt Эллен

of English, at any rate

KitFox

12:40 PM

@Matt! There's no need for insults!

Robusto

@RegDwightΒВB This is why you need to keep the subtitles on when watching Amurrican films.

RegDwight ΒВB

I do?

Matt Эллен

@KitFox Reg knows what I mean :D

KitFox

Amurrican? Is that the same as Merkin?

RegDwight ΒВB

@MattЭллен conurt is strange in any and every language. I would look it up.

Especially if I were a high-rep user on ELU.

KitFox

12:41 PM

But you are above average intelligence.

Most people don't think, much less think about words.

Matt Эллен

exactly

the fact that they thought as far as "oh -tation is normally spelt -tation" is surprising

RegDwight ΒВB

I dunno that intelligence has anything to do with curiosity.

KitFox

You make me laugh.

Matt Эллен

I think it does

RegDwight ΒВB

My point is kind of that the word looks strange all by itself. Be you redneck or whitetail.

Conurt. Conurt. It's just funny.

Robusto

12:46 PM

@MattЭллен Word.

Matt Эллен

but they know conurtation is a word and they know where to put it. What more is there?

RegDwight ΒВB

Curiosity.

Robusto

@RegDwightΒВB Someone's having a wee bit of semantic satiation, methinks.

KitFox

What I am wondering is how my jQuery validator just fixed itself.

RegDwight ΒВB

@Robusto Nah. Not the case.

Robusto

12:47 PM

Anyway, gotta motor. Laters.

RegDwight ΒВB

@KitFox jQuery is great and does all things. All things includes all things.

Matt Эллен

CU Robusto.

KitFox

@Robusto Bai!

shrugs and moves on to next page

RegDwight ΒВB

Au robudoir.

Matt Эллен

conurtation is the act of conurtatin, innit? I don't like the conurtation of the way you're lookin at my pint.

RegDwight ΒВB

12:51 PM

Pint is a great word. A counterexample to the figure/river/give of yesterday.

KitFox

raises a pint

Well, two half-pints really.

Matt Эллен

lol

KitFox

bows

Is it worth adding 13 blank parameters to an existing sp so that I can avoid having two custom controls?

RegDwight ΒВB

Two Hungarian half-pints? That would be like four pounds not including the weight of the glasses.

Matt Эллен

@RegDwightΒВB oh yes!

KitFox

12:54 PM

@RegDwightΒВB No, mine are fully American.

Unless my husband is secretly Canadian.

Matt Эллен

@KitFox that sounds like a maintenance problem, but that would depend on the complexity of the sp

KitFox

@MattЭллен Essentially, I need to bind 13 fields on the edit form, but they should be blank on the add form. I guess I'm not adding parameters...just extra named fields.

If I leave a note in the code, that ought to make sense to someone else.

Matt Эллен

fair enough

KitFox

Yeah, I'm gonna do it.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

This is what I don't get about using stored procs for programming

why not just have an insert statement and an update statement?

KitFox

1:00 PM

I have an insert statement and an update statement.

But those are for posting, not for loading.

Hmm, but I could do a left join maybe.

I wonder if that would be more or less confusing.

RegDwight ΒВB

0

Q: English Usage?

As a ESL I'm not sure if I can use the following sentences: You can take no other directions. Should I use instead: You can't take other directions. Which one do you think it is the most natural/idiomatic ?

word-usage usage

KitFox

ELU Lite.

He's not an ESL, he's an ELL. sighs

Oh, speaking of which, @Reg, I was going to suggest changing the working title from "English as a Second Language" to "English Language Learners."

English doesn't have to be the asker's second language.

And it also obviates the question about including native speakers.

RegDwight ΒВB

1:18 PM

Have you seen my answer to MetaEd's question?

KitFox

Yes.

RegDwight ΒВB

K.

KitFox

That's why I suggested the title change.

Mitch

@KitFox but that's what ESL usually means (and ELL is totalyl new). Except ELL does say it better.

KitFox

ELL is the currently accepted nomenclature in K12 education.

Mitch

1:19 PM

Oh. nice.

KitFox

In the US.

RegDwight ΒВB

I have no idea about the nomenclature.

Mitch

did not know that

KitFox

It is supposedly "less offensive."

Vitaly

Just pick English as a Foreign Language and be done with it.

RegDwight ΒВB

1:21 PM

Yeah that's what I'm fearing most. Selecting a less descriptive term just because it's more politically correct.

KitFox

It's more descriptive, not less.

Mitch

I thought it captures the idea better, like for those pedants (ahem) that think of having multiple languages and English is past second.

KitFox

And "English as a Foreign Language" doesn't cover native speakers who are trying to improve their English.

RegDwight ΒВB

@Mitch hey I saw that!

Mitch

wink

RegDwight ΒВB

1:22 PM

@KitFox native speakers should go here. Period.

KitFox

Plus, it makes it sound like English is the primary language.

Mitch

(I had no argument then either)

ELL fits it pretty well.

RegDwight ΒВB

I'm not opposed at all. Just brainstorming.

Mitch

Every language has their second language learner version.

KitFox

@RegDwightΒВB I think you overestimate the quality of English education here.

Mitch

1:23 PM

FDL?

ZSD?

KitFox

ZPG?

RegDwight ΒВB

@KitFox trust me I don't. I've had enough Reddit discussions to know. :P

Mitch

damn the keyboard gods for lack of ease in type russian and chinese

KitFox

I think rather we should blame Chinese and Russians for not having proper alphabets.

winks

Anyway, I have to get snacks before meeting time.

Mitch

@RegDwightB I"m trying to think through the negatives...you -don't oversestimate the quality of Eng Education.. means...

KitFox

1:25 PM

BBL

Mitch

you estimat epretty wel..but that doesn't say if english grammar knowledge is bad or good.

RegDwight ΒВB

@Mitch as long as those folks don't answer I don't have a problem.

Mitch

also selection bias of (ahem) idiots on the internet who don't know shit.

RegDwight ΒВB

Questions can be as misspolen as they choose.

Mitch

Oh...

yeah.._super wink_ there

RegDwight ΒВB

1:26 PM

I am just kind of opposed to questions where the answer is "no native speaker would ever ask this". They don't sit well with me at all.

Mitch

cripes yeah that bugs me.

as fun as it is, you realize of course the the ESL site will go nowhere, right?

not because of RC, but because the people who will push are not the people who will use it and give it traffic.

RegDwight ΒВB

I mentioned that just the other day.

We'll wait and see.

Mitch

oh

RegDwight ΒВB

Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

Mitch

This reading thing is hard.

yeah.

RegDwight ΒВB

1:29 PM

Try drinking instead.

Mitch

I assume you know about thinkers anonymous.

KitFox

tries drinking

Oh, Reg! You just gave me a great idea.

RegDwight ΒВB

22 hours ago, by RegDwight ΒВB

My guess would be that he takes the whole "support" thing literally. You support a site you'd really support. You don't support a site you'd like to have so you never have to go there.

Mitch

raft.wash.org/thinkers.html

RegDwight ΒВB

22 hours ago, by RegDwight ΒВB

We need more actual ESLers.

But I'm not worried just yet.

Oh I like this edit:

0

Q: English Usage again?

As a ESL I'm not sure if I can use the following sentences: You can take no other directions. I'm using it on giving indications to a foreigner. Should I use instead: You can't take other directions. Which one do you think it is the most natural/idiomatic ?

word-usage usage

The title is so much better.

Mitch

1:32 PM

I thought it was a new question

RegDwight ΒВB

So did I.

Perhaps it is.

You never know.

Mitch

It changed my whole outlook on the question.

RegDwight ΒВB

@Mitch way funneher than expected.

KitFox

ditto

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@KitFox I'm confused, what do you need to load on a create form?

Mitch

1:34 PM

"Life just seemed -...easier."

KitFox

@MrShinyandNew安宇 The student names, ids, etc.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@KitFox And you load all of those with a single proc?

KitFox

Yes. Why wouldn't I?

user19161

I have capped for the day. Thank you for your support.

RegDwight ΒВB

0

Q: How to praise beauty...?

My Question is How could one praise the Beauty and spark in a girl's eyes... in a best way. I know that the spark, itself could be the word, but it just doesn't feel rich enough to express deep immense beauty of her eyes. I just want to know, if there is one single word, or a small statement th...