English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

tchrist

12:06 AM

I’m not a jock, so I find those rankings superqueer.

Cerberus

12:27 AM

Hiya.

MC

tchrist

12:42 AM

MC?

Robusto

Motorcycle Club.

As in Hells Angels MC.

Ooh, look, @Cerb: They have Dutch Hells Angels ...

Cerberus

I was trying to trivialise holiday salutations even more.

Abbreviation is the lowest thing you can do to language.

@Robusto Tell me about...they are terrible.

Just look at the lack of apostrophe.

Robusto

Yeah. That is the major problem with the Hells Angels.

Cerberus

nods fervently

Johan Larsson

googling fervently

David Wallace

12:59 AM

If they would only spend more time thinking about apostrophes, they would have less time for other actions.

@Cerberus HNY, BTW.

Cerberus

@DavidWallace How dare you wish me happy hanukkah! I'm not Jewish!

stamps feet

David Wallace

Ooh, are you replying to the comment of mine on the star wall?

Cerberus

No.

I was jokingly misinterpreting your abbreviation.

David Wallace

Oh, it was a little subtle for me. Since you changed all the letters in the abbreviation :-)

Cerberus

Uhuh.

David Wallace

1:05 AM

And the target of the arrow thingy.

I wished somebody "happy holidays" this morning, and she thought I was asking her a question.

Cerberus

@DavidWallace Oh oops. I meant to click the other line.

@DavidWallace A question? And what could the answer possibly be?

David Wallace

Oh, she said something like "no, not really, but I'll take more of a holiday next year".

I must work on not doing the kiwi increase-in-pitch-at-the-end-of-every-sentence thang.

KitFox

Hola.

I don't know how to tag this:

0

Q: History and usage of "dooryard"

I have been interested in the expression "dooryard stop" recently. This is an expression that is used to describe a short visit in someone's dooryard (driveway) that often means not staying long enough to even get out of the car. It is the opposite of what could be called conversational diesel...

David Wallace

1:21 AM

I think you've tagged it correctly. You might consider throwing in "etymology" for good measure.

KitFox

Well, I think I got the etymology.

door + yard.

Not very complicated.

I kind of guessed at the history too.

I thought maybe it had an OED entry.

Johan Larsson

are there tags like dialect, local?

KitFox

I don't know. Good thought.

I added the dialects tag.

David Wallace

Umm, yeah, I think of etymology as including history, not just the building blocks of the word. Maybe I am using the word incorrectly. Apologies.

@KitFox My dead-tree OED is not at my home, and my public library has not renewed its subscription to the online version.

KitFox

No, no, I meant that I had that part of etymology covered, so history was more specific because that's what was left.

@DavidWallace Bucket of suck.

David Wallace

1:29 AM

That's a very colourful picture.

KitFox

I wonder if I can access it via my university library. I hadn't thought of that. I have a student card around here somewhere.

David Wallace

"Who left their suck in my bucket?"

To be honest, though, it sounds very American to me. I wouldn't be surprised if the OED doesn't list it.

KitFox

Emerson, Frost, and Eliot.

What do those authors have in common?

David Wallace

I have an odd feeling I should know this.

KitFox

Oh. You know what? Not Eliot. Which makes it that more interesting.

Emerson and Frost spent considerable time in Maine.

I can't remember if they were natives though.

David Wallace

1:33 AM

Where Canada and USA overlap? Naughty Kitty!

What do you call someone from Maine?

KitFox

A Mainer.

David Wallace

Mainer? Mainian? Mainelander? Mainiac?

Oh, jinx! Thank you.

KitFox

We're only allowed to called ourselves Maineiacs. No one else is allowed.

David Wallace

My city has a suburb called Wainuiomata. Its inhabitants are known as Wainuiomartians.

KitFox

Haha.

So Eliot did spend time in New England, it seems.

And his family was from around here.

I know a relation of Emerson's, and most of his family is Mainer.

David Wallace

1:38 AM

Why do you have a hard time believing that this term's usage is restricted to a small area?

I think one's own words always seem to one as if they should be used everywhere. There was a word I used here recently (I can't remember what it was now), that I was surprised to discover was a New Zealandism. I had always assumed it was used everywhere.

That's right, rark.

KitFox

Well, because it is kind of an obvious formation. Door + yard. It's not some bizarre configuration or odd use of something common.

Like we use "stove up" to mean something that's busted. That I fully expect to be really local.

David Wallace

But I would never call my front yard or my driveway a dooryard.

KitFox

I updated the question though, to give more of an indication why I find it surprising.

David Wallace

Hmm, when I hear "stove up", the first thing I think of is pregnancy. I think I'm subconsciously drawing parallels between stove and oven, as in "bun in the". Weird.

KitFox

I heard tell it was a holdover from the Brits.

David Wallace

1:46 AM

Ah, yes, but which Brits!

I would use "stove in" for "dented".

I wonder if it was once the past participle of a long-since-lost verb.

KitFox

Oh yeah. That sounds kind of odd, but not terribly.

@DavidWallace There is a question here somewhere about it. That's how I found out that Brits use it too.

David Wallace

4

Q: Was your fender "stove-in" after your car was hit by that truck?

Is stove-in — smashed inward — an archaic expression? Is it a regional expression? I was speaking with someone from my hometown (Salem, MA), and he used the word during our conversation. Made me think about regional language quirks. Any ideas out there?

idioms expressions dialects

Is that the one you mean?

There we go. Mark Beadles has answered my question.

And Barrie and Malvolio. What an intelligent community we have here.

Freaky. I just moved my mouse to upvote that question, and the number increased (due to someone else's upvote) just as my mouse pointer moved onto the arrow.

Then I remembered that I no longer have an account on this site, so can't upvote stuff anyway.

KitFox

cough

David Wallace

OK, Kit, thank you for reading my mind and anticipating my mouse.

KitFox

I guess I can't encourage you to vote to reopen then.

David Wallace

1:53 AM

You can encourage me to, but not successfully.

Are mod's re-open votes as binding as their close votes?

KitFox

Perhaps.

David Wallace

You're scared to find out, aren't you?

tchrist

@KitFox They are, of course.

KitFox

Evening, @tchrist.

tchrist

Hi. Are you thinking stove in might be regional?

David Wallace

1:56 AM

Binding isn't the right word, but you know what I mean.

KitFox

Are you going to find that dictionary entry, or are you finished with your answer? I was waiting until I knew before I voted.

@tchrist No, I believe it isn't.

tchrist

@KitFox I am at my parents’ in Wisconsin, so cannot dig up D.A.R.E. without driving to Madison.

Sometimes you can find excerpts on-line though. Let me check.

KitFox

@tchrist I see. Are you having a good visit?

David Wallace

I hate sites that tell you "not found" with a status code other than 404.

KitFox

@tchrist Maybe I can find it at my university library.

tchrist

1:58 AM

Well I’ll be!

I think I have something.

David Wallace

Because the absence of information ends up in google.

tchrist

@Kit here

That is just a list, no maps and such. But it still is mentioned. I’ll add that to my answer.

KitFox

Chiefly NE, NY. "Dooryard call" I hadn't heard that, but it must be the same thing as a dooryard stop.

tchrist

What does that mean?

KitFox

What does what mean?

tchrist

2:02 AM

A dooryard stop.

KitFox

I explained in the first paragraph. It's a short stop in someone's driveway to chat.

Dooryard = driveway.

tchrist

Oh yes, that does make sense.

KitFox

Usually you don't even get out of the car, unless you are running inside for a quick piss.

I imagine it is common in rural areas, and was particularly popular before phones.

tchrist

There are other versions of that. Something with whistle, I think. Maybe that is just for trains though.

KitFox

Like whistle stop? Hmm.

Maybe I should pose a phrase request.

David Wallace

2:06 AM

That's a cafe, isn't it?

tchrist

@KitFox No, you cannot ask for a request. :)

David Wallace

Like the train stops for a few minutes at a particular station, so there's a cafe next to the station that does all of its business in those few minutes.

KitFox

Yeah.

David Wallace

Then, when the train blows its whistle, everyone abandons their coffee and runs to get back on.

KitFox

@tchrist I suppose there is that.

Although I could ask.

David Wallace

2:07 AM

Yes you can. You will be executed tomorrow. "May I have a last request?"

tchrist

1. A small station or town at which trains do not stop unless requested by a signal given on a whistle.
2. One of a series of rapid, superficial visits.
3. Used attrib. to designate a journey with a lot of brief halts; spec. one by a campaigning politician that takes in many undistinguished places in this way. Also fig.

> Hence ˈwhistle-stop v., (a).trans., to travel through (a region) on a whistle-stop tour (rare); (b).intr., to make a whistle-stop tour; also ˈwhistle-stopping vbl. sb.

David Wallace

OK, I guess the definition I gave must be a regionalism. That's how we use "whistle stop" here in New Zealand.

tchrist

@KitFox I cannot see how I can ever get to 30 questions.

KitFox

I just wanted to get to five. But it is excruciating.

tchrist

Innit?

I almost asked about midwest today, but it sounds too peeving. There was a news article that called OK, LA, AL, MS midwestern states. People outside the midwest have queer ideas of what the midwest is.

KitFox

2:11 AM

Weird.

tchrist

You should have a whole slew of regionalisms you can ask about.

KitFox

I could see OK, maybe LA, but AL?

@tchrist I can't really think of any that are honest questions. I've wondered about the dooryard thing for a while.

tchrist

How can Louisiana be miswestern?

KitFox

Well. It would be a stretch, but I guess it is sort of mostly west of the Mississippi. And mid, well, who pays attention to that anyway?

tchrist

In our newspaper’s weather section, it always had a bit on “around the Midwest”, where is listed each of MN, MI, WI, IA, IL, and IN. No OK.

The midwest has not been the "middle" of the country in a long time.

Like how the Mideast is. . . um, what?

It really meant near west.

Kinda.

KitFox

2:14 AM

I wouldn't have counted Montana, Michigan, or Wisconsin as midwest.

tchrist

Did I list MT?

MN is Minnesota.

KitFox

Oh right. Minnesota. Still wouldn't have.

tchrist

KitFox

How is that mid?

tchrist

That is the U.S. Census Bureau’s definition.

KitFox

2:16 AM

shrugs

tchrist

You should not count OH according to people here, but it does have a Midwestern culture and accent.

KitFox

IL, IN, and OH should always go together.

tchrist

What I always thought of as the Midwest is the Upper Great Lakes region, plus Iowa.

KitFox

I can't believe I forgot the Christmas hat. Well, I was really busy, but still.

tchrist

I still think I like the Mochi had best.

Cerberus

2:19 AM

Is that really the infamous Midwest?

I thought it was in the western half of the country.

And not clustered in the north.

Johan Larsson

Yeah, I would also have expected a little mid and a little west

Cerberus

Like the states that are mainly square.

tchrist

You have to understand the history of the word for it to make sense.

@Cerberus The Midwest is part of the North, certainly.

Cerberus

I would have thought it to be the non-coastal part of the darkest area here.

tchrist

No, that is not what it means.

Cerberus

2:22 AM

@tchrist Apparently.

tchrist

That would be as screwy as the dummies who think that OK and AR and LA and MS and AL are in the Midwest. It is offensive to us Midwesterners to group us with those Southern states.

Also, the West was kinda related to anywhere that was a territory in the 19th century.

Cerberus

I will give you 10 points if you don't use the words offensive/offend/offended/offends/offending for a week.

5

tchrist

I don’t think of the Dakota strip as part of the Midwest. Those are Great Plains states.

Johan Larsson

the northwest is Canada right?

tchrist

How shall you do that?

The Northwest is WA and OR.

Cerberus

2:24 AM

@tchrist Wait, you're no Midwesterner, according to your definition? Now I am even more confused than I already was.

tchrist

@Cerberus Sure I am.

Cerberus

Bu CO is not red?

tchrist

You are where you were reared. I was reared in Wisconsin.

And am there now.

“red”?

Cerberus

Oh.

I see.

tchrist

Are you colorblind? I see only blue.

Cerberus

2:25 AM

Red on your map I meant.

But the "offensive" part, are you really serious about that?

tchrist

The “Pacific Northwest” is WA, OR, BC, and the AK panhandle.

@Cerberus Sure. The South is icky. Don’t you dare call us Southerners, nor them us.

Cerberus

Why do you care what people call you?

tchrist

They were traitors.

We were loyalists.

BIG DIFFERENCE

Cerberus

"They" means a couple of people and 150 years ago.

tchrist

Couple of people?

Cerberus

2:27 AM

Besides, why do you care what people call you?

tchrist

How long ago was the Spanish Netherlands, eh?

Cerberus

@tchrist Yes: the large majority were no doubt not involved in politics.

tchrist

The South has an utterly different culture from the Midwest.

Cerberus

@tchrist What do you mean?

tchrist

@Cerberus 850,000 people were killed in the Civil War. How can you pretend that didn’t happen?

Cerberus

2:29 AM

Slow down.

tchrist

EVERYONE was involved.

Cerberus

You're jumping to conclusions.

tchrist

You could not not be.

Cerberus

Do I call you names for what your government does?

tchrist

The South is culturally distinct from the Midwest.

So much so that the cultural cues are all off.

Cerberus

2:30 AM

Because I sure have an opinion on your government.

tchrist

They were traitors. 850,000 people were murdered in war.

And that was when we did not have very many people.

Cerberus

Why do you care what people call you?

tchrist

Ok, you silly Spaniard.

How ’bout them tortillas, eh?

Cerberus

Do you really think a single person in my country would remotely be offended by that?

tchrist

Pillaged any indigenous villages lately?

I mean, you guys are always doing that stuff.

Cerberus

2:33 AM

See above.

tchrist

Just because you don’t mind being grouped with a bunch a rednecked, slackjawed traitors doesn’t mean we shouldn’t be.

Cerberus

And do you honestly believe that someone who says that your state and some southern state are both part of the Midwest intends anything remotely related to "you are a traitor"?

tchrist

They are south of the Mason–Dixon line. Case closed.

Damned slavers.

Cerberus

@tchrist I am tempted to say "maybe your culture should change", but I won't, because I don't think you mean what you're saying.

tchrist

Bought and sold people as though they were property.

Cerberus

2:35 AM

We all did that.

As in, our ancestors, yours and mine.

Johan Larsson

@tchrist are you drunk or just trolling? :)

tchrist

These are the places that had fricking sodomy laws until 2003! That is the kind of culture we are talking about. Burning crosses and all.

If you don’t mind being classed with bigoted abusers, then I really question your moral position altogether!

Cerberus

@JohanLarsson Possibly both.

@tchrist How about questioning the way you draw conclusions far and wide from simple words?

Johan Larsson

@Cerberus I'm one of them

simchona

Guys, keep it classy.

KitFox

2:39 AM

@Cerberus Well if that ain't the pot calling the kettle...

And is this what happens when I go to dig up a question to try for the Necromancer hat?

Cerberus

@JohanLarsson Haha, I am guessing drunk! It's Christmas, after all.

@simchona Don't worry, this is good-natured banter.

@KitFox Excuse me?

Johan Larsson

@simchona what I wrote?

KitFox

pours eggnog

simchona

@JohanLarsson To all of you. Just reminding y'all not to let this get too out of hand

Cerberus

Hey Johan, do you have Second Christmas Day?

KitFox

2:40 AM

Boxing Day?

Cerberus

@simchona If you think this was close, then you should see our other discussions!

Johan Larsson

It is a red day so we don't work but nothing special really.

simchona

@Cerberus Oh goody.

Cerberus

A red day?

@JohanLarsson People don't have Christmas dinners of family gatherings?

Johan Larsson

Marked with red in the calendar, we call them red days in Sweden

Cerberus

2:42 AM

@KitFox Not entirely the same thing, I think.

Johan Larsson

@Cerberus that is mostly the night the 24th

Cerberus

Yeah that's Kerstavond.

KitFox

I'm off. Good night!

Johan Larsson

night fox

Cerberus

But people here also often have family gatherings on the 25th and on the 26th here.

Bye.

Johan Larsson

2:44 AM

they do of course but 24th is "the main event"

tchrist

> ‘Awake! Awake!’ he cried. ‘It is a red dawn. Strange things await us by the eaves of the forest. Good or evil, I do not know; but we are called. Awake!’

Cerberus

@JohanLarsson Maybe.

But I think in some countries family gatherings on the 26th are uncommon.

Here people usually do one family on first Christmas day, and another (in-laws) on second Christmas day, or vice versa.

Or they mix in Christmas Eve.

@tchrist Would you call eaves a metaphor there?

By the way, I'm reading Vance again. Wyst.

About the man-rivers of Uncibal.

I love Vance so much.

The bad parts are pretty bad, but the good parts are superb.

tchrist

@Cerberus No, certainly not.

> b. Of a wood: The edge, margin.

Cerberus

Okay.

So you think the eaves of a forest is among the oldest, primary uses of eave(s).

tchrist

It is sense 1b.

Cerberus

2:48 AM

Don't you hate Vance's girls?

tchrist

> OE. efes, fem. = OFris. ose, Flem. (Kilian) oose, OHG. obasa (MHG. obse, mod. dial.G. obsen) eaves, porch (:-WGer. *obis(w)a, *obas(w)a) = ONor. ups (Sw. dial. uffs), Goth. ubizwa porch; prob. f. same root as over. The final -s has been mistaken for the sign of the pl., and in mod. Eng. the word is commonly treated as pl., eave being occas. used as the sing. The forms ME. ovese, WSomerset office (Elworthy), point to an OE. form *ofes:-WGer. *obas(w)a.

@Cerberus Vance has girls?

898 O.E. Chron. an. 894 ― Þa foron hie··bi swa hwaþerre efes swa hit þonne fierdleas wæs.
C. 1325 Gloss. W. de Biblesw. in Wright Voc. 159 ― Desouz l’overayl, under the wode-side wode-hevese.
C. 1340 Gaw. & Gr. Knt. 1178 ― Þus laykez þis lorde by lynde wodez euez.

They need to add the Tolkien citation.

Johan Larsson

@Cerberus I don't really know the rules for such things

Cerberus

@tchrist Yeah I just looked it up. Perhaps I hesitated about its metaphoric status because it is now obsolete, according to the OED.

tchrist

Well, Tolkien used it that way.

Cerberus

@JohanLarsson Oh OK, but what most people around you do?

@tchrist Yes, so the archaic use is not metaphoric at all.

tchrist

2:51 AM

About 31 times, in fact.

Johan Larsson

@Cerberus chat :)

Cerberus

@tchrist Of course! The protagonist is always, and I mean always infatuated with some evil or semi-evil girl that is very annoying and shallow.

@JohanLarsson Noted.

tchrist

> By the afternoon they had reached the eaves of Mirkwood, and were resting almost beneath the great overhanging boughs of its outer trees.

> We have come to the eaves of the Golden Wood.

> Northwestward stalked the dark forest of Fangorn; still ten leagues away stood its shadowy eaves, and its further slopes faded into the distant blue.

Cerberus

We don't need 31 Tolkien quotations this time, thank you.

tchrist

I am used to it. I did not even know that the OED had decided it was obsolete. They should grep more closely.

Cerberus

2:54 AM

Kedidah, for example, is callous, superficial, foolish, and annoying. And she has zero redeeming qualities.

It is clear from page 1 that she's only using the protagonist, and even that she does in a disinterested manner.

tchrist

Well, somebody has to be the bad guy.

Cerberus

But she's not even that.