English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

During football matches, the Amsterdam supporters will yell "Jews! Jews!". And you can guess what the Rotterdammers will yell in reply—all in good humour.

@Robusto Euro-trash? Are those Greek bonds?

Robusto

12:33 AM

@Cerberus — I think we're all headed for a barter economy. Wish I knew how to raise chickens.

Cerberus

You can play music for people.

I'd toss you an egg or two.

No need for your own chickens.

Unless you're very particular about best-before dates.

Robusto

Who said anything about eggs? I would prefer a nice chicken-parm sandwich.

Cerberus

Tomatoes good too?

Robusto

Tomatoes are fine.

Cerberus

Then have one! throws

Robusto

12:41 AM

<ducks>

user19161

@Cerberus No.

FallenAngelEyes

@Cerberus De Joden, then? O_o

user19161

Why is the shit brix question getting downvotes? I find it very interesting.

Robusto

@JasperLoy — You mean the s*** brix question?

user19161

Same goes for the catsup and ketchup one.

user19161

12:47 AM

@Robusto Yes, you mean shit has to bowdlerized too now?

Robusto

@JasperLoy — You were here when the Clue Crew came aboard, weren't you?

user19161

@Robusto I don't know who is Clue Crew, but I did get suspended for 30 min from chat for saying that p***y is a cat and D**k is a neighbour.

Robusto

@JasperLoy — Whu?

user19161

And so I will bowdlerize this sentence.

user19161

@Robusto Ya, it happened about half a day ago, but no big deal. And I'm sure you know what the words are.

Cerberus

12:50 AM

@FallenAngelEyes Yup.

FallenAngelEyes

Huh, I was unaware of that

Robusto

@JasperLoy — Poopy and Desk?

FallenAngelEyes

Though I do not follow football at all

A failure in my inburgering, I know :P

user19161

@Robusto No you can't trick me into getting suspended again!

Cerberus

@FallenAngelEyes Listen carefully to what the Feyenoord supporters are yelling and you will no doubt be shocked, if Zwarte Piet already shocked you.

Robusto

12:51 AM

Hey, I was suspended for an hour for saying f*** a few times.

Cerberus

@FallenAngelEyes I don't care for football either, utterly boring.

FallenAngelEyes

Oh lord, I try not to get in-between football fans at all. They scare me.

user19161

@Robusto That's new, and comforting.

Cerberus

@FallenAngelEyes Me too.

FallenAngelEyes

Vuvuzelas need to die. :|

Cerberus

12:52 AM

@Robusto Seriously? When?

@FallenAngelEyes Oh, yes, those stupid things.

FallenAngelEyes

shudders

Robusto

I'm not the mild-mannered person you see here in chat. I'm really quite a vituperative rascal when pressed. And, to quote someone from this chat, "insane" ... Mwahahahaha!

Cerberus

@Robusto I don't believe it!

Robusto

Feb 18 at 19:18, by Robusto

Yeah, I wouldn't know. Some humorless toad got me banned.

Read backwards from there.

user19161

@Robusto Yes you are one guy I haven't figured out here yet.

Robusto

12:55 AM

@JasperLoy — Well, if you ever do figure me out, be sure and let me know.

FallenAngelEyes

@Robusto I just looked at your EL&U profile. I... I bow down to your rep. Holy crap.

Cerberus

Ah, OK.

@FallenAngelEyes But he is really a noob at heart!

user19161

@FallenAngelEyes They might suspend you too if you say crap too often.

Robusto

@FallenAngelEyes — My rep is indifferent to all bowing and scraping. It is just a meaningless number. I make fun of it all the time and it just lies there.

FallenAngelEyes

Our highest on Gaming is only 36k or so I think

Cerberus

12:57 AM

Hah we laugh at that.

I remember when Rob was still an infant at 7000 reps.

FallenAngelEyes

Hehe.

user19161

@Cerberus I remember when Rob was an infant in his diapers.

FallenAngelEyes

Rep levels are more spread out in Gaming than on some other sites I think because of how some people are really excellent in a certain game, but others may never have played it before.

Spare Oom

'Night folks.

FallenAngelEyes

We've got a large umbrella, so we have a high variance of experts.

user19161

12:58 AM

@FallenAngelEyes Or how some don't play games at all like me.

Cerberus

@JasperLoy You weren't even a concept by then.

simchona

Well this was a fail:

1

Q: What is a word that means "to become more and more off topic"? [Solved]

For example: Someone starts becoming vague and off-topic and a second person says "stop ___ing" because the first person was intentionally trying to railroad the conversation. If it helps, I think the word I'm looking for starts with a D and ends with "ing". [ The word I was looking for was "d...

single-word-requests

Cerberus

Night OOm!

user19161

@FallenAngelEyes Now they have experts for everything, even gaming? What about eating?

FallenAngelEyes

@JasperLoy Go to Cooking.SE!

user19161

1:00 AM

It's amazing how the question gets downvoted and the answer gets upvoted on the brix question, a bit unfair.

user19161

I give genesis a plus one.

Robusto

And ... in the "thanks for playing our little game" category ... read the last comment in this answer:

7

A: What does "to pick someone's cherry" mean?

Nobody "picks" anybody's cherry. Cherries are "popped" and cherry in this case refers to hymen. To "pop one's cherry" in a non-sexual way is to do a thing for the first time. Cherry-picking is something else altogether.

simchona

facepalm

user19161

@Robusto trig is gay, he said so himself.

simchona

I don't think this question will help anyone in the future. It's like "I'm thinking of a number...oh wait, it was Alabama"

Robusto

1:02 AM

@JasperLoy — Noted.

simchona

1

Q: What is a word that means "to become more and more off topic"? [Solved]

For example: Someone starts becoming vague and off-topic and a second person says "stop ___ing" because the first person was intentionally trying to railroad the conversation. If it helps, I think the word I'm looking for starts with a D and ends with "ing". [ The word I was looking for was "d...

single-word-requests

user19161

@simchona I've only seen a [closed], not a [solved]

simchona

@JasperLoy It's unfair -- I actually tried, and won't get upvoted because I'm not in her head

user19161

@simchona Plus one after reading. Don't cry. Maybe she doesn't really like girls you know.

simchona

@JasperLoy Thanks hon. Maybe. Is FF a guy?

user19161

1:06 AM

@simchona Seems to be from his tone, but only he knows.

user19161

@FallenAngelEyes You not sleeping yet?

FallenAngelEyes

@JasperLoy It's only 3am

Robusto

@JasperLoy — I'll give you 10 to 1 on guy.

user19161

But knowing how deceptive people can be, there's no way to be sure.

Robusto

@JasperLoy — You can tell just by the way someone talks in chat.

user19161

1:10 AM

eje211 is gay too. I figured out of course from this question.

user19161

5

Q: Future tense usage: "When you see it ..."

I wonder why the phrase is "When you see it you will shit brix," and not "When you will see it you will shit brix." Is the version with two will incorrect? What grammar rule says that you should not use will see in the above phrase?

future-tense

FallenAngelEyes

@Robusto I'd be interested to know what sort of cues you use to determine that

user19161

@Robusto But I've never seen FF here.

user19161

Sorry wrong question I posted.

Robusto

@JasperLoy — OK, not chat. In comment chat, so to speak.

user19161

1:11 AM

15

Q: Just how offensive are the terms "retarded" and "gay"?

My college-age son and his friends use the terms "retarded" and "gay" pretty much interchangeably to mean substandard, bad, lame (in the sense of ineffectual or weak) or just plain wrong. I've suggested that he might want to be careful about where he uses such language, but he clearly isn't worri...

speech offensive-language

Robusto

@FallenAngelEyes — Just the tone. It's hard to explain.

@JasperLoy — And?

user19161

@Robusto I just meant to say I know eje211 and trig are gay because they said so in their answers.

FallenAngelEyes

@Robusto Interesting. I'm always very interested in gender issues, such as stereotyping, perception, prescriptivist language usage, etc. so I was just wondering. :)

Cerberus

Is that what your research is going to be about?

Robusto

@JasperLoy — OK. I mean you can tell who is male and female, for the most part, by seeing how they talk in chat. For example, someone who comes here often and purports to be female is/was obviously male based on the things he talked about, and the great lengths to which he went to try to appear female. Real women don't have to prove that.

Cerberus

1:14 AM

I must confess that I can't tell in half the cases or more.

@Robusto Oh, who is that? I never pretended.

FallenAngelEyes

@Robusto "Real" women?

user19161

Of course any individual's perception is biased in the sense that he got info from the people he interacted with.

Robusto

@Cerberus — Well, I'm not saying I can't be fooled. But not often.

@FallenAngelEyes — Yes. Such creatures do exist. Or so I am told.

Cerberus

@Robusto You may be better at it.

Real woman != a man who is pretending.

FallenAngelEyes

@Robusto I wouldn't know what they would be. Hm.

user19161

1:16 AM

@Robusto I think I know who you are talking about but I shan't say.

FallenAngelEyes

@Cerberus Yes, but then I question what one's criteria for the definition of a "woman" is

Cerberus

@JasperLoy Tell me!

@FallenAngelEyes Someone born as a woman or someone who dresses like a woman in daily life. Those overlap for 99+ %. I don't Robusto was referring to the remaining 1 %.

user19161

@Cerberus I think better not. I don't want to offend anyone.

Cerberus

@JasperLoy OK I understand.

user19161

But nobody can offend me because I am just not offendable. I've gone through hell so I don't feel offended by the lesser things.

Robusto

1:19 AM

@FallenAngelEyes — There are human beings with XY chromosomes whom I would define as female, and some who have XX chromosomes whom I would define as male. But those are exceptions.

Cerberus

@JasperLoy An excellent attitude.

FallenAngelEyes

@Cerberus Ah, but then I must question you more! :) What does "dressing as a woman" mean then? Skirts? High heels? Does genetic sex define gender to you?

@Robusto I guess I don't think of them as "exceptions."

Cerberus

@FallenAngelEyes I really couldn't say. The exact location of the boundary may even be meaningless, because it's just a definition. But I think Robusto wasn't thinking of such complicated cases...

Robusto

@FallenAngelEyes — They are not the majority, certainly.

BTW, I don't really care how people wish to present themselves. If you're a guy who wants to pretend to be female in chat, hey, rock out with your c*** out. My only point is that in most cases I can suss out gender from dialogue. Given a large enough sampling of dialogue, that is.

FallenAngelEyes

@Robusto They aren't, but taking them into consideration when making generalizations about gender is something I usually try to stay aware of in my language usage and how I think about gendered society, personally. :)

Cerberus

1:23 AM

I don't have anyone with sex-change issues among my family or friends. Perhaps one or three among more distant acquaintances. So it must be fairly rare.

FallenAngelEyes

And aye, I'm not trying to offend you or define how you should use your language, I was just generally curious as to what kind of social cues you use/look for and what your idea of gender is under those definitions.

Cerberus

Does anyone know what the percentage of sex changes and transvestites is anyway?

FallenAngelEyes

@Cerberus It depends on your social circle. Off the top of my head, I'd say at least 50% of my friends are genderqueer in some form or another.

Cerberus

@FallenAngelEyes Genderqueer? What is that?

FallenAngelEyes

@Cerberus Transvestites are very different from people who identify as transgender or transsexual.

@Cerberus Non-heteronormative!

Cerberus

1:25 AM

You are using all technical terms that I don't know...

Robusto

Tip #1: Posting baby pix in chat: odds-on female.
Tip #2: Posting baby pix *of yourself* in chat: odds-on male.

Cerberus

@FallenAngelEyes I'm sure they are, but they would pose similar difficulties in identifying their "sex" in chat, or whatever it is.

simchona

Transvestites are individuals who dress as the opposite gender

Cerberus

@Robusto Is that #2 really true? Never noticed. Of course I wouldn't do either.

FallenAngelEyes

@Cerberus Actually most people who practice transvestism without being trans in other forms are usually very sure of their gender identity.

Robusto

1:27 AM

@Cerberus — Yes. Really-o truly-o.

Cerberus

@FallenAngelEyes Well, it is probably a matter of definition. I was thinking of this guy=>girl I know who dresses like a woman, with make-up and all, but used to be a man. No surgery or anything that I know of.

FallenAngelEyes

@Cerberus People who identify as genderqueer identify themselves usually outside the gender binary, the societal idea that there are only "male" and "female" to identify as.

@Cerberus I would say they are transgender then, not "just" a transvestite, likely.

user19161

Not many people post baby pics in chat though.

simchona

@Robusto By your logic, then, anyone who posts any baby pic is female

Cerberus

But what is sex anyway? It is basically just a linguistic thing perhaps, whether you want to be referred to as "he" or "she".

Robusto

1:29 AM

Tip #3: Talking about sex in mixed company: odds-on male.

Cerberus

I don't "feel" anything about my manhood. I am just who I am. If I were taught from a young age to call myself a woman, I still feel exactly the same, but call myself female.

FallenAngelEyes

@Cerberus I usually use "sex" to refer to physical sex and "gender" to refer to how one decides to identify and present themselves to society.

Cerberus

@Robusto Do gay men count to make a company of women mixed?

Robusto

Tip #4: Arguing a point to within an inch of its life, as if it were some kind of desperate game that had to be won: odds-on male.

FallenAngelEyes

That's how many people in the genderqueer community refer to those terms as well.

simchona

1:30 AM

@FallenAngelEyes It's like race v ethnicity

FallenAngelEyes

@simchona Right

Robusto

Tip #5: Making tip lists in chat: odds-on male.

simchona

@Robusto So, am I male or female?

Cerberus

@Robusto That one I agree on!

FallenAngelEyes

Is there a difference in Dutch, @Cerberus? From what I've looked up, there only seems to be "geslacht"

Robusto

1:31 AM

@simchona — I haven't spoken with you much, but I am getting an XX impression so far.

simchona

@Robusto Carry on, then

FallenAngelEyes

@simchona You are whatever you choose to identify as.

I have friends who identify as different genders on different days, so I'm all for flexibility. :)

Cerberus

@FallenAngelEyes Hmm... don't be offended, but is that an efficient use of language? Using words that are ordinarily synonymous to mean different things makes it very confusing for laymen. Why not say "physical sex" and "mental sex", or something like that? Much clearer.

user19161

@cerberus I won't ask what your underwear reads since you didn't want to say, but I've made a guess.

Robusto

Tip #6: Behaving as if rep score really means someone has beaten a game of some kind: odds-on male.

FallenAngelEyes

1:33 AM

@Cerberus As far as I know, that usage began in the 1950's and has become more and more popular.

simchona

@Robusto But I like earning rep...a lot...

Robusto

@Cerberus — If you don't have the mental part, the physical is just boring.

FallenAngelEyes

So they're not really "ordinarily synonymous" anymore, at least not as much as they used to be.

Robusto

@simchona — Well, but you don't go at it as if it were a desperate undertaking. Liking to win and by God having to win are different things.

Cerberus

@FallenAngelEyes Hmm I'm not sure. Even the word "geslacht" smacks of stuffiness and boredom. I think it would usually just be describes in other ways, like "boy or girl", etc.

FallenAngelEyes

1:35 AM

@Cerberus But some people don't identify as "boy" or "girl" outright.

I'll have to do more research on this and/or find some more genderqueer native Dutch speakers.

Robusto

Oh, and as to pretending to be a different gender in chat? It means nothing to me. Honesty is one of the better policies, but not the only one.

Cerberus

@Robusto Yes, beating people in games is male on average. But really, there are legions of girls who are equally competitive, and scores of non-competitive men.

FallenAngelEyes

@Cerberus Especially young girls in regards to social status. Vicious.

Cerberus

@Robusto Agreed!

Robusto

@Cerberus — Yes. We are not talking about edge cases, though. Those are simply harder to detect, not impossible.

Cerberus

1:36 AM

@FallenAngelEyes I was taught to use "sex" always, because "gender" sounded a bit stiff, puritan, except for grammatical gender.

FallenAngelEyes

Gotcha.

Robusto

@Cerberus — But sex sounds like, well ... sex.

FallenAngelEyes

In the circles I am in, the linguistic distinction is very clear.

Cerberus

@FallenAngelEyes Yes! They can be extremely competitive. It is said that men look at girls, but girls look at girls too.

user19161

@fallen I just realised your eyes are really eyes when I took a closer look. Previously I thought they were wings.

Cerberus

1:38 AM

@Robusto See? That is Puritan.

Robusto

@Cerberus — No, it's Humorist.

FallenAngelEyes

@JasperLoy They are eyes with little wings on the top, so you're right all around!

Cerberus

@Robusto A Puritan humorist.

user19161

@FallenAngelEyes >_>

FallenAngelEyes

@JasperLoy <_<

simchona

1:39 AM

^_^

Cerberus

It always amazed me how many people think they can change reality by just changing labels.

simchona

\/_\/

FallenAngelEyes

_

Robusto

@Cerberus — I am no Puritan. If you know nothing else about me, know that. For example, I screwed Hester Prynne and went around bragging about it — but I only gave her a C-, not an A. [Literary humor]

Cerberus

It only works to a very limited degree, and usually not at all when forced upon people.

FallenAngelEyes

1:39 AM

Aw, the smiley breaks in the parser.

Cerberus

@Robusto Thankfully I don't know who that is, and I was joking, of course, you humourless Puritan.

FallenAngelEyes

@Cerberus I'm not a huge fan of labels myself, but I feel that most people should have the right to label themselves as they see fit to rather than have someone else pigeonhole them.

Cerberus

@FallenAngelEyes Add ```.

Robusto

@Cerberus — You never read Nathaniel Hawthorne's The Scarlet Letter?

FallenAngelEyes

*_*

Ah ha!

Cerberus

1:41 AM

@FallenAngelEyes Yes, that is certainly better. On the other hand, people shouldn't care so much if they are labelled incorrectly; shrugging it off can be very wise. Not always, of course. But Jews often make the crudest Jew jokes, etc. etc.

user19161

@Cerberus Double etc is poor style. In fact using etc at all is poor style.

Cerberus

@Robusto Nope, is that about this girl in America in a village? I have heard about it.

simchona

@Cerberus I learned that "you people" originally referred to Jewish people in a derogatory manner

Cerberus

@JasperLoy But I like it!

simchona

@Cerberus Sure, let's say that

Robusto

1:42 AM

@Cerberus — What kind of an American are you, anyway?

FallenAngelEyes

@Cerberus The problem there is the light years big gap between logic and emotion. It's perhaps more logical not to care about how people think about you, but most of of us still have an emotional response towards negative labels being put upon us.

Which is, well, just human.

Cerberus

@simchona Which people? That may be so; but it is still true that the best Jew, Moroccan, gay, etc. jokes are invented by the objects of the jokes. I like that.

user19161

@FallenAngelEyes But you are not human, you are an angel!

Cerberus

@simchona Yeah I am not very knowledgeable...

simchona

@Cerberus No, the phrase "you people" to refer to a group of people

FallenAngelEyes

1:44 AM

@Cerberus This is true, but it can be different for some people to embrace empowerment when they're not in the privileged position to be able to do so.

Robusto

►

Cerberus

@FallenAngelEyes That is true; but I think it works well if you try to work on shrugging it off rather than trying eliminate the source.

FallenAngelEyes

@Cerberus But social change is good!

Cerberus

@simchona Oh! I see. Really? In English, I presume? In what context? Never heard of that.

@FallenAngelEyes What is empowerment?

Robusto

@FallenAngelEyes — Not if it results in a repressive, religious society!

FallenAngelEyes

1:46 AM

@Robusto Point!

simchona

@Cerberus I think so -- let me look it up

FallenAngelEyes

@Cerberus I'm not sure if you're asking for a definition or a philosophical discussion.

Cerberus

@FallenAngelEyes Social change can be good, and if it is more tolerance, I think it is always good. But changing language because it offends people often misses the point, I believe.

FallenAngelEyes

@Cerberus But prescriptivist language in everyday use does shape society and how people tend to think.

Cerberus

@FallenAngelEyes I really don't know what it means. I have heard it in the context of emancipation, I think, but I never quite got what it meant.

@FallenAngelEyes To a certain extent, yes. But I think it is often overrated; consider the euphemistic treadmill.

For example, I used to frown when people said "flikker dat in the vuilnisbak" (flikker = queer in a negative sense). But it is just something that is part of our language, and people don't mean anything by it.

FallenAngelEyes

1:50 AM

@Cerberus I meant it in the sociological sense, like feeling more confident and raising awareness of stigmatized groups and helping those groups gain a more equal place in society.

user19161

@sim Will you still be around when vacation ends?

FallenAngelEyes

@Cerberus I don't use "flikker op," personally. To me, it's like saying "That's so gay" in English when you mean something is bad/negative, and I don't really like the connected connotation.

Cerberus

Hmm then it sounds a bit complicated/broad...

Robusto

@FallenAngelEyes — I think people should be left alone to do what they want, so long as it is not harmful to others. I think they should be neither helped nor hindered.

simchona

@JasperLoy As in, when I go back to school?

user19161

1:51 AM

@simchona Ya.

simchona

@JasperLoy Should be, why?

Cerberus

@FallenAngelEyes Yeah, I can understand that. But it is quite common among both gays and straights to say "homo!" when someone does something stupid.

user19161

@simchona Nothing, just random thoughts. Since you mentioned you are on hols now.

Cerberus

@FallenAngelEyes I agree in so far that it may not be easy for those offended to see that it wasn't meant offensively. So a certain balance must be struck. But to always lay full responsibility with the "offender" goes a bit too far for my taste.

user19161

@Cerberus homo sapiens

Cerberus

1:54 AM

@JasperLoy That, too! But you know that isn't the same root, don't you?

user19161

@Cerberus I dunno, but now I do!

Cerberus

Homo = human in Latin

Homo- = same- in Greek.

Robusto

@Cerberus — And ... homo erectus? [pause for a laugh]

user19161

I see. The Greek and Latin expert speaks.

Cerberus

@Robusto hollow laugh

FallenAngelEyes

1:55 AM

@Cerberus What my point is is that the pervasive usage of those types of terms with negative connotations makes it so that there are a bunch of people saying things in ignorance of what they mean and what kind of impact they can have on others.

Robusto

@Cerberus — Ecce homo.

Cerberus

@FallenAngelEyes That is true. But there are countles other terms that do that. The black market. Short on cash. Throw like a girl.

FallenAngelEyes

@Cerberus I hate the term "throw like a girl" :P

It's that the word choice perpetuates stereotypes and ideas.

Cerberus

@FallenAngelEyes The old prejudices are part of our history, and the vestiges will be visible in our language and culture for ages to come. The important point is not to act according to those prejudices.

We cannot eradicate these vestiges, and we don't need to.

simchona

Oh @FallenAngel...you would have strongly disliked trg

He had very...strong misogynist ideals

Transcript for

English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…