English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

RegDwight

6:00 PM

(See how careful about giving away further secrets I am? Ain't that nice?)

Grace Note

(But I don't know European history, as it were)

F'x

Napoleon

Napoleon Bonaparte ( ; 15 August 1769 – 5 May 1821) was a French military and political leader during the latter stages of the French Revolution. As Napoleon I, he was Emperor of the French from 1804 to 1815. His legal reform, the Napoleonic code, has been a major influence on many civil law jurisdictions worldwide, but he is best remembered for his role in the wars led against France by a series of coalitions, the so-called Napoleonic Wars, during which he established hegemony over much of Europe and sought to spread revolutionary ideals. It was as a result of these wars, and h...

Kit

@Fx I was actually referring to Anathema Device, heroine of Good Omens.

RegDwight

32 mins ago, by RegDwight

2 days ago, by RegDwight

I'm not posting that link to the Wikipedia article on "Joke" again.

Matt Ellen

Ithought I knew the name forom somewhere

Grace Note

6:01 PM

@Fx He was an Emperor, but I don't much recall him being called a Tyrant. That said, I reiterate the parenthetical.

33 mins ago, by RegDwight

2 days ago, by RegDwight

I'm not posting that link to the Wikipedia article on "Joke" again.

MrHen

@MattEllen It's also just a generic plot point

RegDwight

@GraceNote I can call anyone a Tyrant.

F'x

@MattEllen Forom? It's not a very common name, though

MrHen

33 mins ago, by RegDwight

2 days ago, by RegDwight

I'm not posting that link to the Wikipedia article on "Joke" again.

I mean, everyone else is doing it

Abdulelah Al-Jeffery

I can talk here and in my university with (non-english) doctors fine but I lose this confidant when I take with any one I know that he is native !!!!

RegDwight

6:01 PM

Apr 15 at 10:11, by RegDwight

Don't make me go ABBA, etcpp.

Last warning, people.

Matt Ellen

@Fx I have hand spders to do my typing, they're some times inaccurate

F'x

@RegDwight last warnings are for wussies

►

Adel

@AbdulelahAlJeffery - "I lose this confidence"

F'x

there you go, no warning at all, I've gone all ABBA

Adel

ABBA? is that a band?

Abdulelah Al-Jeffery

6:03 PM

@Adel Thanx

Adel

jk i'll look it up

RegDwight

Mar 2 at 13:47, by Robusto

I will say this about ABBA, though. They are the best band out of Sweden whose name is a palindrome.

Adel

;) cool , btw Abdulelah confidant is a good word to know - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confidant

Jez

Is "I" a palindrome?

Kit

@Jez I Palindrome I

RegDwight

6:04 PM

@Jez You're a palindrome yes.

Kit

@RegDwight thwack

Grace Note

I don't think palindromes have the same clause that prime numbers do.

@GraceNote ?

@Kit 1

Oh, dear

6:05 PM

And can we make it a policy to slap people for using TL;DR?

nohat

I've just crawled out from under my rock

Kit

Hi @nohat.

RegDwight

Good morning, sunshine!

F'x

@nohat hi

simchona

@Kit But I just used that...

Kit

6:06 PM

@nohat Still blinking in the bright light of midnight?

Grace Note

@Kit Primes are "There are only 2 factors", and 1 only has a single factor, so it isn't a Prime, apparently.

Yo, @nohat!

nohat

I'm trying to figure out what all this discussion about recent "brouhaha" on the site is all about

Jez

@GraceNote I said "I", not "1"

nohat

can someone summarize?

simchona

@GraceNotes @Kit I remember reading (in Devil's Numbers?) that one is a primadonna number

Kit

6:06 PM

@simchona You were my inspiration.

Abdulelah Al-Jeffery

Is there a specific book or video series you recommend ???

RegDwight

@nohat You have three days worth of chat transcript to read. If you want, I'll just quote each message, in chronological order.

Grace Note

@Jez I said "Palindromes do not have the same clause that prime numbers do", implying that I should be a palindrome.

simchona

@Kit I'm not sure I want to be your inspiration then...

Kit

@simchona You're not the only one doing it, and I don't mean it meanly.

Grace Note

6:07 PM

@RegDwight Might consider setting up a new room just to contain it all.

Robusto

@nohat — I'm kinda shocked that you haven't noticed already.

Jez

@GraceNote I dont really understand that logic :-)

RegDwight

@GraceNote Seriously, I've been thinking about that.

Kit

@GraceNote I get it now. Thanks.

Grace Note

That way we don't have to have a big foup of it all in here in the middle here.

F'x

6:08 PM

yesterday, by JSBangs

it only became an issue because Jeff decreed that the guidelines should be interpreted in a different way than the community had been applying them up until now

simchona

@Kit Changed my answer so I'm not using it.

nohat

I have a lot going on in my personal life right now that has limited my free time

Grace Note

@Jez Palindromes are just "Words that have the same letter order when written backwards as with forwards". This has no exceptions or loopholes for single letters, which is unlike how prime numbers work.

Jez

ah

Kit

@simchona It's just that it implies that you lack confidence in your answer. Either make it worth reading all of it, or prune it so it's not so long.

simchona

6:09 PM

@Kit Point taken.

MrHen

@nohat No worries. @RegDwight: Are you setting something up or should I start summarizing?

RegDwight

@GraceNote Is there any way to sort the complete starred message list chronologically?

MrHen

@RegDwight That would actually be really nice...

RegDwight

@MrHen Go ahead.

nohat

I'm guessing this has something to do with this meta question about questions about jokes

Jez

6:10 PM

@RegDwight chat.stackexchange.com/rooms/info/95/english-language-and-usage/…

Grace Note

@RegDwight Not to my knowledge.

RegDwight

@nohat That's where it all started, yes.

Jeff hijacked that thread, closed stuff unilaterally, amended the FAQ at will.

When confronted with that, he left insulting comments.

When confronted with that, he left an even more insulting "apology".

Kosmo left.

nohat

This isn't the first time Jeff has come blazing onto the site, making radical changes without really understanding anything about language or how the site works

changing stuff based on wrong assumptions

MrHen

@RegDwight Yeah, that's the gist as I see it

Jez

►

MrHen

6:12 PM

After that was a whole bunch of drama in chat; a handful of others were considering leaving

RegDwight

At least one actually did.

nohat

i'm kind of glad i missed all that. i was not in any position to deal with that kind of drama

MrHen

And... to date I have see Dori, Rebecca, Grace Note, Shog9, MichaelMyers and at least one other person I am forgetting in chat trying to calm people down

RegDwight

@nohat Truth be told, nobody was. He caught everyone completely off-guard.

Jez

Jeff is like the beekeeper with a shotgun and an experimental bent.

2

MrHen

6:14 PM

@RegDwight The flare up was really when Jeff and Kosmonaut went at it.

Grace Note

@MrHen I've done decidedly less of the calming than I would hope I could've accomplished, but I came here more to discuss battle strategy in the intent of trying to keep everyone around.

nohat

@MrHen was that here in chat or on the site somewhere?

Kit

@MrHen yip yip

MrHen

(Not blaming Kosmonaut, just noting that it was still calm until that happened.)

@nohat Mostly in the meta thread on jokes

Grace Note

(Originally, at least. Right now, I'm here because this is a fun room.)

RegDwight

6:15 PM

@nohat Meta. The comments on the Joke thread. But Jeff has actually edited some of the insulting stuff out.

Robusto

@MrHen — The earliest inkling that something was wrong came when Jeff took a back-handed swipe at the moderation of this site in a comment to the "spurious flags" question on meta.

Kit

@GraceNote (Yay for us!)

MrHen

@GraceNote Sure. Things are actually doing well today.

Kit

@aedia Hullo, IPU!

MrHen

@Robusto Yeah, that was it. The first uh-oh moment didn't directly involve Kosmonaut; it was just Jeff on moderation in general

aedia

6:16 PM

@Kit Hi!

Robusto

@GraceNote — You came for the drama, but stay for the comedy. We get it.

Grace Note

@Robusto Less the drama, again.

Kit

@AbdulelahAlJeffery Are you still practicing? This room is good for practice. It's not always this busy and hard to follow.

Grace Note

And yes, I'm poor at the game.

nohat

I really would like to get Rebecca and/or Robert on the phone and talk to them privately

MrHen

6:17 PM

@nohat: The recent developments are that Jeff has posted a few things on current Meta threads

Post-Kosmonaut leaving

But nothing earthshattering

Grace Note

@nohat You should request it, then.

Robert's very approachable when he's around, I'm sure he'll be happy to talk on the phone.

MrHen

@nohat Rebecca has been in and out of chat since everything happened so it should be easy to get her attention

RegDwight

@nohat I can forward to you Kosmonaut's resignation email, if you wish. He specifically allowed me to do so.

MrHen

I have seen at least one comment from Robert on Meta

nohat

@RegDwight I'd like to see that

Kit

6:19 PM

I have a quick question. I'm suffering from semantic satiety. Is this right "Your password has been sent to the email that you provided to us."?

Grace Note

Robert's the head Community Coordinator, so he's probably the better choice. Rebecca's no slouch, but just in terms of who has access to who, he's the wiser choice for less report → report → report.

MrHen

(I assume that since nothing has been said about replacing Kosmonaut, no info is available on that yet?)

Grace Note

@Kit I would add a "have" before "provided", but I'm probably not the best person to suggest help.

MrHen

@Kit Looks good.

Matt Ellen

@kit looks fine

Kit

6:20 PM

@MrHen @GraceNote @MattEllen Thanks.

MrHen

"Your password has been emailed to the address you provided" is a more succinct way to say it

Robusto

@MrHen — Jeff said he was bringing someone off the bench. Sounded like the next runner up in votes from the last election.

Grace Note

@MrHen I'm under the pretense that Jeff will attempt (as has been attempted in all past resignations) to see if Kos is willing to return under any circumstance. Failing that, then it's pretty much beyond certain that you will either have a new set of elections or you'll get a new mod based on results from the last one.

MrHen

@Robusto; @GraceNote: Thanks.

nohat

@RegDwight (my e-mail address is in my profile)

MrHen

6:21 PM

I don't suppose there is an ETA on that?

RegDwight

@nohat check your inbox.

He only sent it to me, not to TPTB, because he was under no impression that they would listen or care.

Grace Note

@MrHen As it were, Kos is the only one who could know.

MrHen

@GraceNote That makes sense. Thanks :)

Grace Note

@RegDwight Should I ask what TPTB is, or am I better off not knowing?

Matt Ellen

the powers that be

nohat

6:23 PM

@RegDwight thanks, reading now

RegDwight

14

A: List of common abbreviations (NOAD, ESL, PIE...)

AAVE — African-American Vernacular English AE, AmE — American English AHD — American Heritage Dictionary BE, BrE — British English BNC — British National Corpus CGEL — Cambridge Grammar of the English Language COCA — Corpus of Contemporary American English COHA — Corpus of Historical American En...

Grace Note

Ah

MrHen

(Or a new sandwich? I think that would be a good name for a sandwich.)

RegDwight

@MrHen That answer is CW. Amend it.

Kit

@MrHen Mmm, sandwich.

What would it be though?

Grace Note

6:24 PM

@MrHen Mmm... Turkey Pork Tomato Brocolli...

RegDwight

The Pest Threaking Bandwich!

Grace Note

(Broccoli? I don't actually remember if it's 2 cs or 2 ls...)

MrHen

Toast Peanut butter Tomatoes ...

That sounds gross

nohat

Based on my previous interactions with Jeff, I think he is a hothead, and the best approach is to tell him what he wants to hear so he goes away, and then continue doing what we think is best.

Matt Ellen

Torridly Pounded Baked Tomato

RegDwight

6:25 PM

@MrHen So does "coke" and "pepsi".

MrHen

@nohat Heh, I guess the fact that I don't immediately disagree with that is telling.

RegDwight

@nohat That's kind of what JSBangs suggested, yes.

The thing is, he will only go away for so long.

MrHen

@RegDwight So no coke sandwich? :(

nohat

If, ultimately, he thinks our site is so crappy and useless, he will just shut it down.

Kit

Tapenade and Prosciutto on a *Bagle with Tea

RegDwight

6:26 PM

And we can only handle so many times of him returning.

MrHen

Oh, yeah, JSBangs had some family stuff to focus on

Robusto

TPTB = Too Proud To Beg

RegDwight

yesterday, by JSBangs

guys, did you ever listen to the old SO podcast? do you remember how every single episode Joel would say that they should do something smart, and Jeff would ignore him because he didn't think of it first? and then a few episodes later they would always do Joel's idea anyway. i think we should just recognize the fact that Jeff is stubborn and proud (like most devs, myself not excepted), and that it's impossible to directly convince him that he's wrong about anything.

Kit

@Robusto Ain't too proud to beg, sweet darlin' ♫

RegDwight

yesterday, by JSBangs

we'll have much better luck working with @Dori and @RebeccaChernoff to fix the problems with the community, and let them influence Jeff behind the scenes to see that his heavy-handedness is actually damaging the community

Matt Ellen

6:27 PM

@Robusto How is that a sandwich filling? ;-)

nohat

@RegDwight yep, exactly, exactly

Robusto

@MattEllen — Hey, if you won't eat FlufferNutter, what can I do?

RegDwight

yesterday, by JSBangs

@Robusto this. Jeff is actually less of an expert than he thinks that he is on this topic, and this causes him to underestimate the difficulty and the complexity of the questions. he's a linguistically naive native speaker, so for him it's all "duh, you just do it." but he is completely wrong

nohat

well, I nominate @JSBangs as K's replacement, then, if it comes to it

Robusto

The this JSBangs is referring to is "The idea of "grammatical correctness" is much deeper than people seem to think."

nohat

6:29 PM

he clearly has exactly the right attitude, approach, and insight

Michael Myers

@nohat Jeff mentioned that they were going to ask one of the people who lost in the election, but didn't say which one.

Grace Note

@nohat I'm optimistic enough that I can shed my understanding of the situation to hope that it won't come to it.

Michael Myers

meta.english.stackexchange.com/questions/1549/is-elu-succeeding/…

MrHen

Honestly, I'd love to have JSBangs as a mod anyway

Regardless of Kosmonaut's status

When do we get another election?

Michael Myers

I don't know if there's a standard time frame for a second election. Not many sites have gotten that far.

MrHen

6:31 PM

Ah, okay :)

I was just curious; I wasn't here for the first one so I don't know how they actually work

Grace Note

@MichaelMyers Only one site has, and that was out of necessity moreso than time passage.

MrHen

Are three mods normal for post-beta sites? (I assume yes.)

Grace Note

@MrHen That's the average, yes. It depends on the size and the volume of work.

Michael Myers

Yes. Programmers got a fourth, but they're... special.

MrHen

Mmk.

Robusto

6:33 PM

I hope we don't have to go through another election again. I hope Jeff can say the right words that will make Kos come back.

MrHen

@MichaelMyers Heh. :)

Grace Note

Some sites can survive on only 2 normally-active moderators, for example.

MrHen

Sure, that makes sense.

Grace Note

Even for the smallest and least eventful sites, though, we don't recommend having only a single moderator.

MrHen

Yeah, that also makes sense. 1 seems dangerous for many reasons (real life being primary)

Grace Note

6:34 PM

Strange as it may sound, Gaming is actually one of the "Only 2 normally-active is necessary".

MrHen

@GraceNote I'd imagine the gamer crowds are used to self-moderating

RegDwight

@MrHen english.stackexchange.com/election/1

MrHen

It would be an interesting study, at any rate

Grace Note

But I think that's largely due to the strength of our wonderful community, they handle a lot of stuff. Also, badp is a beast that was worthy of replacing Oak.

MrHen

@RegDwight Ah, thanks

Matt Ellen

6:35 PM

@MichaelMyers: Special we are, and special we'll stay! :D

RegDwight

@GraceNote Haha, does he still curse that much?

Grace Note

@RegDwight Oak didn't really curse

MrHen

@RegDwight: TIL your name :P

RegDwight

@GraceNote I mean badp, d'oh!

It was in his nomination.

Grace Note

@RegDwight Oh. Yeah. Sailor.

RegDwight

6:38 PM

@MrHen I think only Kosmo knows my full real name. And he won't give it away cause he just can't spell it using any keyboard he could possibly get his hands on.

Matt Ellen

Elton John!

Grace Note

@RegDwight You'll always be Dwig to me ♪

RegDwight

(Of course, he'll also won't give it away cause he's just awesome. I am merely hinting at the fact that kidnapping him is not an option.)

Grace Note

...as long as you don't go all drachole on me.

RegDwight

@MattEllen That's Sir Reginald Kenneth Dwight, Commander of the Order of the British Empire to you!

Grace Note

6:39 PM

@RegDwight Dwig ♪

psmears

@RegDwight Wow, you don't even know your own name? That's pretty paranoid...

RegDwight

@GraceNote I actually didn't mean to ping you.

MrHen

@psmears Haha

Matt Ellen

@RegDwight beg' pardon Sir

Grace Note

@RegDwight At least you didn't fire off a real arrow, Sir.

RegDwight

6:40 PM

@psmears Well, as I said, I did ask Kosmo to give it away, but...

Laterz.

CU.

Later, @Robusto ♪

@Reg I like you even better now.

Matt Ellen

adios @Robusto

Kit

6:41 PM

Like a tapenade and prosciutto bagel sandwich.

F'x

@Kit OK, I'll go for dinner then

RegDwight

Sounds reasonable.

I have some borshch waiting for me.

F'x

being a pragmatic person, and hating conflict, if I were to suggest a new approach to this, I would ask for a larger team of moderators, and trying heavy-handed moderation for some time

like, "if it feels back to a few moderators, it goes; if behaviour persists, user goes"

putting such a plan forward might be a way out

and it can be adjusted if it completely spoils the fun

things you cannot change, and all that…

RegDwight

@Fx Well, I've long lost track of who's up to date on what, so let me just say again that I have banned five users, for 14 to 365 days.

Grace Note

@Fx Depending on how things roll about as far as activity levels for the current team, this may very well be the end result.

Matt Ellen

6:45 PM

@Fx: remember we're not here for fun! only learning

Grace Note

Moreso the "larger team of moderators" portion.

The "heavy-handed" is more probably an interpretation of how the quantity of the new unit is string.

F'x

@RegDwight don't hear anything I could say (ever) as a criticism

you do great job

what I'm saying is as a way to minimize friction

RegDwight

@Fx Nah, that's not what I mean. I mean that the "user goes" part is ensured even if you only have me.

F'x

there are external constraints (hello Jeff), how best do we operate in the room given

moreover, the "heavy-handed moderation" could be in the deleting of questions/answers

Grace Note

That doesn't seem like a slack point in the current team.

F'x

6:48 PM

cause I know some of our more-or-less regulars can be very varying in quality and discipline

(I have endulged in quite bad answers, from time to time, ... I delete everything of mine that gets downvoted more than once)

Rebecca Chernoff

Adding another moderator is something the team has already acted on. Support for @RegDwight is coming. (:

F'x

@RebeccaChernoff I'm not discussing about support or something like that

what I meant to say (sorry if it's so unclear) is that, by having a larger crew, it can be easier to make tight decisions again and again and again

Grace Note

@RebeccaChernoff Ooh, the candidate has already accepted?

Rebecca Chernoff

@Fx We're talking about the same thing. I just suck at words. (:

Grace Note

That's good to hear.

F'x

6:50 PM

there is some specificity to this site (low barrier of entry as perceived by the users), why not go all the way?

I'm just saying it could be tried

Kit

@RebeccaChernoff Oh the woman with the sinister emoticons is back! ☺

F'x

I'm also saying I don't guarantee it will work, and if it does not, this should then be acknowledged

Grace Note

Well, that's certainly a direct approach taken...

Rebecca Chernoff

As Jeff mentioned, @RegDwight has handled over 80% of the flags on the site. This alarms us (and would on any site, we just need to be better about handling the situation when it comes up) because moderation shouldn't rest on the shoulders of one. We've seen mods burn out because of this.

F'x

@RebeccaChernoff OK. But that doesn't solve anything it self, right? You're saying "this prevents a future problem", not "this solves yesterday's"

nohat

6:53 PM

@RebeccaChernoff It seems like if that is a problem you are trying to address, then going on a wild rampage like that Jeff did is not really a very healthy way to approach it

Grace Note

@Fx Isn't that what you were gunning for with a larger crew?

Rebecca Chernoff

@Fx I haven't quite perfected time travel. (:

F'x

@GraceNote no, not for that reason (though it's good)

nohat

In fact, if that's the problem you are trying to address, why didn't someone just shoot me an e-mail saying "hey, can you try to address more of the moderation flags on the site"

RegDwight

@nohat I think the chronological order was the other way round. First Jeff, then they noticed the flag thingy.

Also, this:

6 hours ago, by RegDwight

@Jez Sometimes it sucks, yes. Not often, though. And.... um... to be completely honest, Jeff's got the number wrong. Perhaps he's just looking at the last month or something, or perhaps he's just comparing us three mods and ignoring the SE employees. Anyhow, if we look at the all-time flag stats, I'm at 37%.

F'x

6:55 PM

@RebeccaChernoff seriously though, yesterday's problem does impact the future unless something is done; it doesn't magically stay confined to the past

RegDwight

Which is not to say that I am not on the brink of burning out.

Grace Note

@RegDwight You do need a break

(You never did take that hour)

nohat

In any case the recent UI improvements to flag handling has made it much more comprehensible for me to manage

F'x

@RegDwight and whether you are or are not, can we please all leave this aside?

nohat

so I am trying to address more of them (have been for a couple days now), so @Reg please feel free to take a break

Rebecca Chernoff

6:57 PM

sorry, brb

RegDwight

@nohat I am heading for Italy in a month or so.

F'x

the question is: should the scope be changed? and the preamble to that question is: do we actually get to decide that?

Kit

0

Q: Regions to which the term "Asian" refers

I have always had view the term "Asian", when pertaining to cultures, primarily refers to East and SE Asian cultures. Recently I have been told that this is "wrong", particularly that it also includes Indian and other cultures located on/around the Indian subcontinent. For reference, I am a nativ...