English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Robusto

01:29

@Kosmonaut, @drachenstern, @waiwai933: I hope there's going to be a swimsuit competition.

drachenstern

@Robusto HA!

Robusto

The lurker delurks!

drachenstern

I try

I'm also attempting to read some commentary in the teacher's lounge and help my wife rewrite her sister's 3000 level paper for college and watch House and fix dinner and was considering starting a simple database

Robusto

What do you teach?

drachenstern

oh no, sorry. It's a room on chat.se

it's for the moderators to discuss moderation

that's entirely redundant sounding isn't it?

Robusto

01:37

Ah. Well, you might be discussing moderation in the sense of temperance.

drachenstern

Indeed.

So to answer the question you actually asked in the other way: I taught remedial math lectures and led many many study groups on computer science topics. I led mentoring groups in study skills and test anxiety.

I want to teach CS at a collegiate level after about 10 years of industry experience (at a minimum, which also means an MSc in CS most likely)

Robusto

13:33

Yoo-hoo, anybody home?

RegDwight

Me is.

Robusto

That's "me am" ...

So ... what if we only get three candidates for moderator?

RegDwight

I think we are quite likely to get more.

Still waiting for @nohat's nomination.

I do hope he will run.

Robusto

Yeah. Would be nice to keep two linguistics pros on the board.

I just hope we get enough candidates that I don't feel guilty about not running.

RegDwight

Well, how long has it been open? Twelve hours or something? 6½ days to go.

Robusto

13:43

Practically speaking, however, the board is pretty dead on the weekend, so it would have to happen in the next three or four days.

RegDwight

That's... a very valid concern.

Robusto

And how many candidates are really going to pass the most important test:

RegDwight

We should put up something attractive on weekends.

Robusto

12 hours ago, by Robusto

@Kosmonaut, @drachenstern, @waiwai933: I hope there's going to be a swimsuit competition.

RegDwight

Hahahaha. Yes, already read that. Still, hahahaha.

Robusto

13:44

So far no one has had the guts to post swimsuit pics.

I'm still waiting ...

RegDwight

We don't want you to commit suicide, remember?

Robusto

Oh. Good point.

This binary logic thing is so unforgiving. Come down on the wrong side once and you're done dealin'.

RegDwight

Also, perhaps they have posted the pics, just not here. Check /b.

Robusto

Nah, they won't be posted. Once it's on teh internetz it's a permanent record.

RegDwight

I thought 4chan deletes everything after an hour?

Robusto

13:49

No ... it's just that the average 4chan user can't remember anything longer than 60 minutes.

RegDwight

Just noticed how your comment about Kosmonaut, drachenstern and waiwai933 in swimsuits comes right after my comment that we should put up something attractive on weekends.

I'm a bit slow today.

Need more coke. Or Coke, for that matter. Brb.

Robusto

I'm dealing with Subversion issues today. I hate svn. We used Mercurial in my last job and all was sweetness and light. Now I have to use svn and it gets out of synch practically every day. Momma told me there'd be days like this.

1

Q: From ClearCase to Mercurial and now to Subversion. Should I be worried?

When I started my current job, I spent a year in ClearCase hell. Everything was kind of like Mordor in winter, only without the laughs. Then we started using Mercurial. Within about a day and a half the clouds moved away, the sun shone, birds started singing — or were those angels? I asked if thi...

RegDwight

I have clicked the upvote arrow thrice.

Robusto

:)

RegDwight

14:05

So you hated Vault? Never tried out that one, but I used to read Eric Sink's blog quite regularly, and he always seemed a smart fella.

Robusto

Someone would always leave on vacation with locked files.

Then you'd have to wait for an admin to get in and unlock them, and blah blah. Pain in the hinder.

thefreedictionary.com/hind

RegDwight

Um, yes?

Robusto

Since you may be struggling with hinder look at the second sense.

RegDwight

Hintern in German.

Robusto

It's an upper-Midwestern term for rear end.

Now almost always used sarcastically.

RegDwight

14:09

The second sense is actually "A female red deer."

Robusto

I meant the first sense, second variation.

RegDwight

The female red deer is not called Hintern in German.

Robusto

hind => hinder

RegDwight

Yes, yes, I'm still following.

Robusto

pronounced like minder

or finder

RegDwight

14:11

Yes, yes, there's pronunciation on that page, too.

Robusto

Sorry, I keep forgetting I'm talking to "the Arch-Polyglot"

RegDwight

Архиполиглот?

Robusto

Da.

RegDwight

Wo?

Robusto

Asoko.

RegDwight

14:14

Grazie.

Robusto

Bitte.

Wasn't it Otto von Bismarck who remarked that a knowledge of foreign languages was an excellent talent for a headwaiter?

RegDwight

Nothing on Wikiquote. en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Otto_von_Bismarck

But I like this one: "Your map of Africa is really quite nice. But my map of Africa lies in Europe. Here is Russia, and here... is France, and we're in the middle — that's my map of Africa."

Robusto

I'm sure it was in a print publication that I encountered that quote. Can't remember where, atm.

Kosmonaut

Hey @RegDwight, I'm glad you're running for a mod position.

RegDwight

Why, thank you.

Kosmonaut

14:18

I feel like you're a mod already.

RegDwight

I had to pull a 180°.

It's still kind of a pity to deprive the community of a regular 3k and 10k user.

Kosmonaut

You had some good points about why you wouldn't necessarily want to be a mod, but I think overall the good outweighs the bad.

RegDwight

Here's hoping that we'll get more 10k users soon.

At 3377 registered users who can upvote, that shouldn't take too long.

The recent dump clearly shows that there's more rep being handed out.

Stack Overflow Blog: Vote Early, Vote Often

Posted by Jeff Atwood on October 19th, 2010

Have you ever wondered why the vote buttons and score are so prominent on every Stack Exchange question?

Putting voting front and center is very much intentional; it is how …

It’s only through voting that a class of editors, closers, and moderators can emerge to help run and govern the site. Voting is how site leadership forms. That’s why the reputation leagues show a breakdown of reputation spectrums.

Does your site have a healthy middle class of users with vote up and down, and edit tag privileges? Does it have a healthy governing class of users with edit, close, and moderation privileges? All of this requires sufficient reputation, which in turn requires users to exercise their right to vote. …

2099 Supporters, 45 Suffrages. Looks promising.

Kosmonaut

How often do you hit your vote limit?

RegDwight

Umm, not that often, I think... I don't always pay attention. But 1813 votes, 187 days, you do the math.

Not anywhere close to 30 votes per day.

Then again, it's not like I'm upvoting stuff blindly!

Kosmonaut

14:27

Yeah, I had to make a real effort to get it.

RegDwight

Well, when I registered, there were already lots of upvote-worthy questions and answers, so I had to catch up.

Robusto

I find it hard to hit my vote limit. I may be too parsimonious, or too picky.

But glad you threw your hat into the ring, @RegDwight.

RegDwight

Man, where's that question on meta...

Can't find it...

Robusto

To me it seems votes on questions follow a distinct pattern: lots of votes for what I consider to be rather dumb or banal questions, few votes on really interesting ones.

RegDwight

Ah! Here:

2

A: English Language and Usage slowing down

Bruno makes a few good points, to which I will add another one. Rep is generated by voting. As of this writing, there have been three huge waves of votes: Private Beta. I haven't participated in it, so I have to speculate to some degree, but it seems reasonable to me to believe that the first ...

Kosmonaut

14:31

We've definitely been increasing in overall activity over the past few months

RegDwight

@Robusto but that is the case on pretty much all sites of the network. Dumb questions are easy to understand, thus easy to upvote. I mean, I wouldn't upvote stuff I don't understand, either!

@Kosmonaut: yeah, that post looks very outdated by now.

Robusto

@RegDwight So, there's pretty much nothing you wouldn't upvote, @RegDwight?

RegDwight

Four months do make a difference.

Err, I never said that, @Robusto.

I'm trying to get the joke, but it totally flies over my head.

Robusto

Just funnin' ya.

RegDwight

Need even more coke. And Coke. Brb.

drachenstern

14:34

@RegDwight lol

Kosmonaut

Yes, 4 months ago there was no Robusto, and now he has around 37k the last I checked.

Robusto

Actually, 3 months ago.

drachenstern

So somebody asked me last night in chat.MSO about a tweak to allow the bar at the top of the page to stay stuck on the top of the page as you scroll up and down, does that seem of interest to anyone else?

Robusto

And 14k. You are embarrassing me.

drachenstern

I'm trying to figure out how much more effort to put into this thing :\

RegDwight

14:35

37k per day, @Kosmonaut, 37k per day.

The dump doesn't lie, @Robusto.

Kosmonaut

Mind = blown?

RegDwight

Yeah, mine just has been by us not having coke.

Have to go with Fanta, where's the fun in that?

Kosmonaut

Those Fanta commercials look really fun actually.

Robusto

Hey, @Kosmonaut, you are interested in central-Pennsylvania dialectical oddities, yes? A colleague of mine was telling me how old-timers in the Pittsburgh area use "yins" as 2nd person plural, and that such people are even called "yins".

Kosmonaut

►

@Robusto: I'm interested in all American English dialectal oddities

I have heard about that... I think it was written as y'uns as a contraction of you ones

(Of course there is no standard way to write it)

RegDwight

14:37

We don't get no nice women, we get fat Hawaiian guys. And this:

►

Kosmonaut

The hell?

I have never heard a person say yins/y'uns in the wild, but I would be giddy if I ever did.

RegDwight

And here's the second one:

►

Robusto

@Kosmonaut: That's what I surmised in a comment somewhere on ESE lately.

Can't find it now though.

Ah, here ...

0

A: What is the possessive of "you guys"?

"You guys" is very informal, so... I'd just say "Hey, you guys, your bikes just got run over by a steamroller". And then turn around and run like hell in case they want to kill the messenger. ;-) Seriously, I wouldn't even try to find possessive, since "You guys" is just a form of address. Wha...

Kosmonaut

@Robusto: On Sunday, my wife and I were on the train, and the conductor used youse.

It is fairly rare, at least around my part of NY, so when I hear it, it is so fun.

Robusto

Is it Brooklynese? I remember hearing it in Chicago as well.

Kosmonaut

14:42

It's like I'm in an old movie!

Robusto

Well, FWIW, I threw my support behind @Kosmonaut and @RegDwight ... now I have one more vote to play with.

All you other candidates listening? Time to be nice to @Robusto!

RegDwight

@drachen: which bar are we talking about?

The red buttons?

drachenstern

The one that has the user information, the search box, the links to meta, and the notification

RegDwight

Ah, on the main site...

drachenstern

I think the user really just wants the notification to travel with down the page

Robusto

14:44

Oh, yes, I think it can be very easily done.

Just take everything on out to Highway 61.

Kosmonaut

@Robusto: I think even some Irish speakers do youse

RegDwight

Hm. I think some users just can't live without seeing their rep all the time...

drachenstern

I spent about 4 hours on part of it last night. I have to do a bit of JS to move things around

Also not sure if it will work with the live update scripts that someone else wrote for monitoring the rep, but it should

Robusto

@drachenstern: You're trying to mess with it in GreaseMonkey?

You have way too much time on your hands.

drachenstern

@Robusto nah, userscript

@Robusto I am a programmer. We tinker. (I also ack your 10k on SO)

Robusto

14:46

We tinker when we're getting paid.

I'm at that point in my career.

drachenstern

lol, I see this. I get there every so often

Robusto

"No man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money." Samuel Johnson

Which I would amend ever so slightly: "No man but a blockhead ever wrote [code], except for money."

drachenstern

I counter with the 10,000 hour rule. (looking up a reference)

Outliers (book)

Outliers: The Story of Success is a non-fiction book written by Malcolm Gladwell and published by Little, Brown and Company on November 18, 2008. In Outliers, Gladwell examines the factors that contribute to high levels of success. To support his thesis, he examines the causes of why the majority of Canadian ice hockey players are born in the first few months of the calendar year, how Microsoft co-founder Bill Gates achieved his extreme wealth, and how two people with exceptional intelligence, Christopher Langan and J. Robert Oppenheimer, end up with such vastly different fortunes. Throug...

Robusto

I know, nobody gets to be an expert until they put in 10k hours into a skill.

amazon.com/Proofiness-Dark-Arts-Mathematical-Deception/dp/…

drachenstern

I'm still not 100% sold on that one, but I'm like 95% sold on it

So I'm playing with my 10k hours ;)

Robusto

14:52

I countered your Outliers with my Proofiness.

drachenstern

Shall I invoke truthiness then? ;)

Robusto

That's the pun involved.

RegDwight

@Robusto Which is the really scary point of the Groundhog Day.

Robusto

I got that one for my b'day. Very good read.

drachenstern

But I ack your original comment and note that there's probably an additional dozen or so authors that have made or reiter'd the same comments. (aside: note that devs read ack and iter as complete concepts... interesting that, yes?)

@RegDwight did you mean to add the word "movie"?

Robusto

14:53

BTW, I am way over the 10K hours mark in my current profession.

RegDwight

Time to learn some Arabic!

Robusto

That's only 5 years of full-time work.

Don't want to learn Arabic. [pouts]

Kosmonaut

Don't learn Arabic... you'll never survive.

RegDwight

Then learn Belorussian.

It's like Russian, except you spell everything however you like.

Robusto

I drink White Russians ... does that count?

Kosmonaut

14:55

Actually, it does.

RegDwight

I drink those too, I'm afraid it doesn't!

Also, Kosmonaut did survive Arabic. Or am I talking to a ghost?

drachenstern

@Robusto yeah, depending on how you look at it I'm either well over or not even close. Are we talking all writing code and trying to be a better programmer or are we focused on C#/JS/webstuff alone? Ya?

Robusto

There is no such thing as an insular discipline in programming.

Kosmonaut

Yeah, but I didn't learn Arabic, @RegDwight... I only studied it :)

RegDwight

Hahaha. Point taken.

Robusto

14:57

There are no jobs that only use, say, Fortran anymore.

RegDwight

I think my father still programs in Fortran.

Robusto

Someone has to keep those Bank of America computers running, I suppose.

RegDwight

And I'm looking at a book titled "Programming in Turbo Pascal 5.5" right now as we speak.

drachenstern

ok, back to lurking

Kosmonaut

mind := blown

wait

RegDwight

14:59

Actually, it's titled "Программирование в среде Турбо Паскаль (версия 5.5)".

So it's more like крыша := съехала

Robusto

If you're a front-end developer, you need to know all flavors of HTML, CSS, Javascript, ASP, JSP, Flash, Flex, Java, C#, Perl, SQL ... the list goes on. Plus jQuery, Dojo, Prototype, and any other framework someone thrusts on you. And you have to make all this shit work together in any browser on any platform.

RegDwight

I must say that I'm quite successful at not using jQuery.

Robusto

I like it, but it has its drawbacks.

Kosmonaut

انفجرت := الدماغ

Robusto

@Kosmonaut: That's easy for you to say.

RegDwight

15:03

That did take its time...

And I don't even know if he's saying something like kutubu := kataba or whatever.

Kosmonaut

exploded := brain

RegDwight

Actually, @Robusto, that's easy for him to write. He would be saying something entirely different. )))

Robusto

Perfectionist: =P

Kosmonaut

Actually, @RegDwight, that illustrates what's nasty about Arabic... those two would look almost identical

كتب vs كتبة

RegDwight

I must say that I really like this quote out of context:

Feb 9 at 15:44, by Kosmonaut

The written language is not the spoken language anywhere.

It's very philosophical.

Kosmonaut

15:06

Well, that's true everywhere actually!

RegDwight

Eine Binsenweisheit.

Robusto

True. I liken it to music. The notes in the score are not the music. If you play the notes, you're playing poor approximations of music. Unless you can play the music beyond the page, you're not making real music.

RegDwight

That's what always fascinated me about becoming a conductor.

Robusto

Pfft. Conductor. Get up there and wave your arms. The real work is being done by the orchestra.

Just kidding. I have utmost respect for good conductors.

RegDwight

I was just in the middle of writing "Every idiot can wave his hands while being ignored by the orchestra. The real work is something else."

Kosmonaut

15:09

I knew they were just waving their arms randomly!

RegDwight

Do you always have to spoil the fun for me, @Robusto!!!???

Robusto

I try, @RegDwight, I try.

When I was in the Civic Orchestra we used to have sectional rehearsals conducted by the principal flutist, a very, shall we say, prissy, self-absorbed individual. But he had a baton, which he would wave in circles. At one point I asked him, "When you make a complete circle, does that represent one beat or one measure?"

RegDwight

So what did he respond?

Robusto

He told me: "I consider that a very impertinent question."

RegDwight

That's you in a nutshell.

Robusto

15:12

He punished me, though.

RegDwight

With the baton?

Robusto

The very next rehearsal he made me take the alto flute. This was a piece that called for the alto flute to play lots of harmonics.

Now, as you know, the flute is not a transposing instrument. And harmonics are not something can be fingered, they have to be achieved by adjustment of the embouchere.

But when you have an alto flute, they sound a fourth lower.

So it was maddening trying to hit the right pitches because they didn't sound right.

And he was all over me like a bum on a baloney sandwich whenever I screwed up, which was a lot.

RegDwight

I like the "as you know" part. Reminds me of this:

15

A: Does "needless to say" convey to the reader that he is ignorant?

It could be construed that way, but it depends on what is said after it. If I said: Needless to say, two plus two is four you wouldn't find it condescending, because generally it is needless to say that two plus two is four. If I said: Needless to say, cribellate spiders have no need f...

Robusto

So ... did I learn my lesson and become more meek and submissive?

RegDwight

Also, baton is a great false friend, BTW. In Russian, it means "loaf of white bread". A baguette, basically.

Robusto

15:15

Nah. I speak truth to power. Always have, always will.

That's why I got it on with Jeff Atwood in meta. I can't help it. Something just makes me want to stick a pin in people who are using their power to bully others.

RegDwight

Wait, what?

Robusto

And I meant "as you know" literally, because you studied conducting.

RegDwight

I don't think I would ever coerce someone into playing a different instrument out of spite.

Then again, never tried.

Might be fun.

Kosmonaut

@RegDwight: It goes without saying that that question is subjective and argumentative.

Robusto

As a flutist you have to play all flutes. There are no alto-flute specialists.

There are piccolo specialists, but they have to play all flutes as well.

Kosmonaut

15:19

@Robusto: I thought it was flautist. Do people in the biz generally prefer flutist?

RegDwight

Yeah, yeah, I know, you need to know alto-flute, zampoña, JavaScript, ASP...

Robusto

As James Galways says, "Depends on how much I'm getting paid."

I say flutist because flautist sounds pretentious.

All of my colleagues felt the same, pretty much.

You would be more likely to hear "flute player" and then "flutist" and then, rarely, "flautist."

I think "flautist" comes up most in conversations like this one.

Kosmonaut

Followed much further behind by "flaut player" and "whistle stick blower"

RegDwight

Hey yo, Robusto, I think your help is needed on this one:

1

Q: Is there a word to describe a highly desirable cursed treasure?

Is there a single word to describe an object or idea that is so desirable that everyone wants to attain it but once they have it they are immediately cursed? The idea is often used in literature--some examples: In Lord of the Rings, the 'one ring' is a perfect example of this. In Guy de Maupas...

single-word-requests literary-techniques

Robusto

Yeah, I saw that one, @RegDwight.

I thought of "poetic justice," but I'm sure that won't satisfy.

RegDwight

15:25

I'm trying to think of a single word, but I can't focus right now, MacGuffin just won't stop interfering.

Robusto

@Kosmonaut: Actually, in an orchestra, the players are referred to synecdochically. You speak of the "principal flute" of the CSO, for example, meaning the person who plays that instrument and occupies on that position.

Kosmonaut

Yes, that is true.

Robusto

Actually, that's probably metonymy, not synecdoche.

Kosmonaut

Well, that goes without saying, @Robusto

Kidding of course

RegDwight

Still trying to understand that comment about Jeff.

Kosmonaut

15:30

I actually would have considered synecdoche and metonymy to be the same thing, with metonymy being the term I would use in linguistic discussions. Now I see that there is a slight difference

Robusto

Yes, metonymy refers to a substitution of one thing for another.

But it's a fine line.

RegDwight

Wikipedias in different languages tell different things.

Robusto

@RegDwight: Here is the exchange:

7

Q: Why are comment lists abridged in the middle?

In longish lists of comments the list gets abridged and a "more comments" link shows up at the end, kind of like an ellipsis. Normally, one would expect that such a list would be trimmed at the end, but on English.SE (and possibly on other SE sites) the elisions can occur anywhere in the list. F...

bug feature-request status-bydesign

You'll have to expand the comment list, ironically enough.

RegDwight

Ha! Never followed on that one, let me have a look...

Robusto

Oh wait, you won't. Meta has full lists.

Kosmonaut

15:34

Oh, I figured you were talking about when Jeff got rid of a tag so suddenly.

RegDwight

Geez... that's a thread... Now let me check out MSO...

Robusto

That one got closed and may already be in the oubliette.

Kosmonaut

Is anyone else frustrated by the fact that numbering (1., 2., 3.) can't be done in an answer if there is anything intervening between list items?

Robusto

@Kosmonaut: Yes.

Kosmonaut

It provides no benefit at all — the questions and answers are small enough that it is not hard to keep track of numbering order.

But there is no way not to have it auto-number things.

I usually write 1) to get around it

But that is ugly

RegDwight

15:41

Hmm. Back from MSO. Not sure what to say.

But @Kosmonaut: you can always use HTML formatting.

And there are all kinds of workarounds like not leaving empty lines in strategic places.

Kosmonaut

But why do we have to work around it?

Is there anyone that says, "it may be annoying for you, but it saves me boatloads of time!"

RegDwight

I'm looking through related posts on MSO, can't find the one I have in mind.

But do you have a link to a specific question?

drachenstern

@Kosmonaut it's a limitation of markdown.

Robusto

@RegDwight: You were the first to comment on that question in MSO. Surprised you didn't recall it.

RegDwight

As I said, never followed up on that one. I do forget things sometimes.

Robusto

15:48

Lies!

RegDwight

Well, I kind of do remember that answer by Shog9.

I think I just thought, let me wait what other answers get posted, and left, and then forgot about it.

Robusto

16:02

Unexpected conversation stopper.

Everyone clammed up when the audience showed up.

RegDwight

Yeah, I just looked at the watch and was like, I don't even know like what I was.

Our company is getting a rebranding and I have to re-paint every single logo ever on every single site we have ever touched.

Robusto

tick ... tick ... tick ...

RegDwight

And so far I have re-painted, like, one.

Or make that ¼.

Robusto

Yeah. Sucks how work interferes with chat.

RegDwight

I still remember when Reddit first got comments...

drachenstern

16:06

@Robusto indeed doesn't it?

RegDwight

My productivity went down from -100% to integer overflow.

And now this.

At least Robusto is compiling. I don't have no cheap excuses.

drachenstern

My cheap excuse is that I haven't taken my meds yet for today (which I really need to at some point)

RegDwight

I must make that excuse my own. I mean, we still don't have coke! Only Zero...

Robusto

16:27

Zero ... didn't the Arabs invent the concept of Zero? I don't think they were imagining the soft drinks and other crimes that would be perpetrated by introduction of that concept.

RegDwight

Wasn't it the Persians?

Ah well, kind of...

0 (number)

{| class="infobox nowraplinks" style="width: 20em;" |- ! colspan="2" style="text-align:center; font:10em verdana; background:#ccc;"| 0 |- | colspan="2" | |- | Cardinal | 0, zero, "oh" (), nought, naught, nil. |- | Ordinal || 0th, zeroth, noughth |- | Factorization || 0 |- | Divisors || all numbers |- | Arabic || style="font-size:150%" | ٠,0 |- | Bengali || style="font-size:150%" | ০ |- | Devanāgarī || style="font-size:150%" | ० |- | Chinese || 〇，零 |- | Japanese numeral || 〇，零 |- | Khmer || ០ |- | Thai || ๐ |- | Binary || 0 |- | Octal || 0 |- | Duodecimal || 0 |- | Hexadecimal || 0 |...

'In 976 the Persian encyclopedist Muhammad ibn Ahmad al-Khwarizmi, in his "Keys of the Sciences", remarked that if, in a calculation, no number appears in the place of tens, a little circle should be used "to keep the rows". This circle the Arabs called صفر ṣifr, "empty". That was the earliest mention of the name ṣifr that eventually became zero.'

Damn you, Robusto, now I'm reading Wikipedia instead of working.

Robusto

Funny, I thought your job was related to Wikipedia somehow.

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English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…