R. Yosef Ibn Kaspi

00:03

I love him too. He's a great storyteller, pashtan to the nth degree, and I knew nothing about his philosophical views (other than דברה תורה בלשון בני אדם applying to halachic realities as well, famously brought by Slifkin in his hyrax discussion)

He's not open to Iyov never living, but he's fine saying akeidas yitzchak never happened?

That seems strange

Alex

Ah, Slifkin got some flack for citing Ibn Kaspi as a "rishon". He responded that Ibn Kaspi is in the Artscroll book "The Rishonim".

@רבותמחשבות It is a bit strange.

רבות מחשבות

@Alex ya, kornreich attacked him over that point

Alex

His issue with saying Iyov never lived is that the passuk explicitly says איש היה בארץ עוץ.

רבות מחשבות

@Alex (and many others, although Ibn Caspi is not really a traditionally accepted rishon...)

Alex

So if that could be a mashal, so could ויהי בימי אחשורוש.

Or the whole Noach story.

רבות מחשבות

00:06

@Alex or so could akeidas yitzchak apparently...

Alex

Well Akeidas Yitzchak did occur.

Just in a dream/vision.

And he explains that we can only allegorize such things when philosophically compelled to do so.

רבות מחשבות

hmm. I have to go now, but I'll be back later

Alex

Like in stories containing angels and the like.

By the way, one of Ramban's critiques of Rambam was precisely that if Rambam says that the beginning of Parshas Vayeira occurred in a vision, you could say that the whole thing occurred in a vision.

Okay, I probably also have more to say, so I'll either continue now without you, or come back later as well .

@רבותמחשבות That reminds me there are a bunch of places in his commentary where he tells stories about his own life.

@Alex Here's the reference:

ואלו השנים חומשים ר"ל בראשית ואלה שמות הם יותר נכבדים מן השאר אמנם חומש ויקרא הוא היותר חלוש מכולם

Alex

01:13

An example of how he takes "pashtanut" (if that's a word) to the extreme:

When the Torah says something two times or in two ways, Chazal and various commentators often interpret something based on the additional time.

While there are other rishonim who also assign no meaning to such redundancies, Ibn Kaspi goes further:

ואם תאמר מדוע יאמר שתי לשונות שדי באחד התשובה כי אלו הם הטענות מי שלא ידע המקרא ולא הלשון וכלל הטוענים כמו זה בנים סכלים המה ולא נבונים

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02:05

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Alex

02:50

In reference to this approach, Nechama Leibowitz wrote (as cited by R. Basil Herring; I don't have the original) Kaspi is the extreme opponent of every precise observation... mocking every question of a superfluity or omission in Scripture

Ibn Kaspi also follows Rambam on the idea that sacrifices are a concession to man. But he then kind of takes it further and applies it to prayer as well:

וה"ה בתפילה ואם הוא דבר נכבד מן הזבח כמו שרמז המורה כ"ש בעשותינו סנין היכלות ובית המקדש ובתי כנסיות ר"ל שזה אחר הזבח דבר בלתי מחויב על דרך האמת

Alex

03:10

By the way, regarding Iyov, elsewhere he kind of implies that it is possible to say that Iyov did not exist:

ואע"פ שיוכל לומר בגוף איוב וריעיו כי לא היו ולא נבראו לא נוכל לומר כן באברהם יצחק ויעקב ובניהם כי על כל פנים היו לנו אבות קודמות כי לא צמחנו מעפר

But my guess is that he just means that it is theoretically possible, but not that the text can actually mean that.

Although shortly thereafter he does kind of imply that it's actually okay to say that Iyov never existed.

רבות מחשבות

17:51

@Alex judaism.stackexchange.com/a/7318/16354, and comments there.

Alex

18:15

@רבותמחשבות Yeah. By the way, if you want a good introduction to Ibn Kaspi, R. Basil Herring has a 134 page introduction in his translation of Gevia Kessef. He might be the biggest expert on Ibn Kaspi (I think it was his doctorate). His footnotes throughout the translation demonstrate a grasp of a tremendous amount of Ibn Kaspi's writings, and he often notes how one place can be used (or is necessary) to understand another place.

It's also somewhat ironic that nowadays we know that Ralbag was wrong about the stars.

רבות מחשבות

@Alex link?

Alex

I'll check, but I don't think it's available online. I had to buy a physical copy, back in the day (quite expensive).

רבות מחשבות

@Alex :(

BTW, a friend pointed out a couple of other quotes:

According to R. Joseph Ibn Caspi (Mishneh Kesef [Pressburg, 1905], vol. 1, p. 36), the reason the Torah forbids inflicting pain on animals is "because we humans are very close to them and we both have one father"! (seforim.blogspot.com/2009/09/…)

Cont: This outlook is surprising enough (and very un-Maimonidean), but then he continues with the following incredible statement: "We and the vegetables, such as the cabbage and the horseradish, are brothers, with one father"!

See also here: seforim.blogspot.com/2010/04/…

Alex

It's not surprising that Shapiro likes him.

רבות מחשבות

I have no idea if he likes him or not, just that he was quite astounded with his comments there.

Alex

18:25

Well he quotes him often enough, and it's right up his alley.

רבות מחשבות

(The same friend also supplied various sources discussing some of the same sentiments that Ibn Caspi has, that are found in other rishonim), here they are:

This reminds me of the introduction to Sefer Agguda (not sure if this should read "Agur") that basically says that he is writing this short halacha sefer to free up the reader's time so he can learn science:

וזאת היתה הסבה הראשונה אשר עוררתני בראותי התלמיד החשוב הנזכר שולח ידיו בפרי עץ הדעת טוב ורע. הם המצות המעשיות המפורשות בתלמוד. גם ישים בכליו מחכמות העמוקות כמו חכמת הטבע ומה שאחריו וכל ההקדמות הצריכות להם. והזמן אשר היא יקר במציאות לא יספוק לו לעמוד על אלו הדרושים כי כצל ימינו עלי ארץ. עם רוב התלאות הנמצאות בגלות אשר קצר המצע מהשתרע. אמרתי אקומה נא ואאזור כגבר חלצי ואתן צמידים על ידיו ורביד הזהב על צוארו במוהר ומתן. ואכתוב לו רובי תורה שבע"פ בדברים אשר יפלו בהם הספקות והמחלוקת בין החכמים עם כל הדעות הנמצאים בחבורים אשר הם חשובים בעיני חכמי הדור. ומזולתם לא חשתי כי הם בטלים ברוב בנין וברוב מנין

Similarly see Moreh Necuchim 3:54 that the ultimate purpose is intellectual perfection which is clarified to mean basically understanding philosophy.

In Milchamos Hashem Rabbenu Avraham also criticizes those who focus on talmud instead of the more important philosophy. His son R. Ovadya also emphasizes that philosophy is the most important and that study of halacha is essential inasmuch as it prepares you for it.

Regarding non-Jews knowing Torah better than Jews, R. Dr. Jose Faur writes that Isaac Newton was the second biggest talmid chacham in England, second only to R. David Nieto (I can send you an article about Newton and his Torah study if you are interested).

His conclusion: Hope some of that was interesting. I always find it interesting that ideas that are supposedly radical are actually stated or implied by much more traditional sources, as seems to be the case here.

I picked and chose some of what he wrote, but hope you may find it interesting also...

Alex

Thanks. Yeah there are a lot of supposedly radical ideas that have some support in traditinal authorities.

The question is what happens when you put together all the radical ideas into one new cohesive unit.

In my Ralbag post I wrote: Note that while while each of the "deviant" views below might have other rishonim who subscribe to it as well, the factor that makes Ralbag the "radical thinker" is that he held of all of these "deviant" views.

רבות מחשבות

@Alex Absolutely.

Alex

Or as someone (probably famous) supposedly said: Every gaon has his meshugas, but the guy who gathers everyone's meshugas together is a meshuga.

(Which I guess might make me the meshuga.)

רבות מחשבות

@Alex I wouldn't be too worried. At the very least, you will be part of a very large chaburah of respected meshugaim :)

Alex

18:38

Indeed.

רבות מחשבות

@Alex one of the things I enjoy so much about this site is corresponding with like-minded meshugaim. Thanks for sharing!

Alex

You're welcome. I enjoy it too.

This is the book I was referring to:

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