Discussion with yoel, DhoweedYaAgov, Shmuel Brin and Double AA

DhoweedYaAgov

23:07

Sholem Aleicham

how is it going

Al Ummat مجاهد

oh wait, that's hebrew :P

yoel

@AlUmmatمجاهد it's the same thing though :)

DhoweedYaAgov

should i quote a hadeeth?

as samu aleikum

Al Ummat مجاهد

@DhoweedYaAgov Wa Alaikum

DhoweedYaAgov

:P

you know arabic?

Al Ummat مجاهد

23:08

@DhoweedYaAgov do you want to?

@yoel oh ok :)

@DhoweedYaAgov yes

DhoweedYaAgov

i just did: as samu aleikum

yoel

@DhoweedYaAgov Dovid, Aleichem Sholem

;)

DhoweedYaAgov

not asalamu aleikum

Al Ummat مجاهد

@DhoweedYaAgov their both basically the same

yoel

@DhoweedYaAgov btw is "YaAgov" יעקב?

DhoweedYaAgov

23:15

yea

yoel

is that like Temani transliteration?

DhoweedYaAgov

the aA is an ayin

ye

yoel

cool

DhoweedYaAgov

unless you want me to wright Y3gov

yoel

heh

follow your heart...

DhoweedYaAgov

23:16

i follow my brain over my heart

yoel

you need both, bro

DhoweedYaAgov

rambam said brain>heart

yoel

Well, follow your rav...

DhoweedYaAgov

my rov is RaMbaM

yoel

So you're good then. :)

DhoweedYaAgov

23:17

boruch hashem

yoel

Amen

DhoweedYaAgov

where you from

yoel

chutz laaretz R"L

northern california

DhoweedYaAgov

ah

yoel

you?

DhoweedYaAgov

23:18

bk

yoel

is there a big temani population there?

DhoweedYaAgov

im not teimoni

and no there isnt

yoel

oh... sorry, didn't mean to make assumptions

but you pronounce like temanim

and follow the rambam?

DhoweedYaAgov

most of the teimonim here are not so educated

and those who are don't follow their teimonim minhogeem

yoel

well, dor daim isn't the only minhag temani...

DhoweedYaAgov

23:20

they are either satmar-ized or sepharad-ized

dor daim are baladi

the other are shami

now a days there are no baladi anymore

just a few by name who remember their parents and grandparents, but they themselves don't know anything

yoel

so... how come you hold like temanim? how were you raised?

DhoweedYaAgov

i don't hold like the teimonim

i hold like RaMbaM

yoel

so... how come you hold like rambam? how were you raised?

DhoweedYaAgov

it has nothing to do with how you were raised

yoel

oh, so it's okay then that the temanim are satmerized?

DhoweedYaAgov

23:24

nope

because satmar are not RaMbaM

yoel

but if it doesn't matter how they were raised, what's the problem?

DhoweedYaAgov

problem is that they are wrong with regards to judaism

yoel

:P

nice achdus bro

give an example

DhoweedYaAgov

kabboloh

aka zohar

pilpul

and other none sense

yoel

deut?

DhoweedYaAgov

23:27

no his friend

yoel

okay, well he knows what i think and i know what he thinks

DhoweedYaAgov

well then there is no point of starting the entire conversation all over again

yoel

nope

DhoweedYaAgov

ill stick with my rambam and you still with your w/e you have :p

yoel

B"H I have practically every sage from today back to Moshe Rabbenu

as you say, you have rambam

and aristotle, i guess

DhoweedYaAgov

23:29

but you dont have Mosha Rabbeinu's teachings

yoel

Well, I do, and you do too.

DhoweedYaAgov

are you saying RaMbaM didn't have rabbonim dating generations back to Mosha Rabbeinu?

ok

yoel

i am definitely saying that certain opinions of the rambam's were totally a daas yachid

and not based on our mesorah

DhoweedYaAgov

Just because a person an date his teacher's teacher's and so on to Mosha Rabbeinu, it has nothing to do with the Mosha Rabbeinu's teachings

what is "our mesorah"

who are we?

yoel

it's definitely not greek philosophy, i can tell you that much

DhoweedYaAgov

23:30

it has nothing to do with greek philosophy

using philosophy to enhance your mind doesn't mean anything

to mesorah

it doesn't break away i mean

it only enhance

yoel

well, follow your brain... but greek philosophy is assur

DhoweedYaAgov

the ideas of their philosophy are ossur not their methodology of learning about the world

RaMbaM himself writes that aristotle is an apikorus

not to mentino apikorus was a greek philosopher...

where did you think the word came from in the gemoroh?

yoel

heh

Double AA

@yoel That's circular. According to the Rambam, Chazal used the wisdom of the time and so did he. So it's in the Mesora. Not using wisdom of the time is out of the Mesora.

yoel

i know

DhoweedYaAgov

23:33

thank you double aa

yoel

@DoubleAA sure, but most other rishonim argue on rambam, so he's mostly a daas yachid

DhoweedYaAgov

rif agrees in many things

lol

Double AA

@yoel I don't even think that's true. But in any event it's circular to call him not based in the Mesora, especially considering how much of future halacha is based on him.

yoel

@DoubleAA i only meant in regards to his "philosophical" teachings

obviously Mishneh Torah is one thing

moreh nevuchim is another

Double AA

@yoel And that's what I meant by circular

DhoweedYaAgov

23:35

his philosophical teachings are seen in the mishne toroh

its not 2 different things

its one person one mind

he doesn't set aside one thing when writing another

Double AA

@DhoweedYaAgov I agree. Splitting them would be near impossible to do.

yoel

@DhoweedYaAgov Rebbe Nachman of Breslev zy'a says that the Rambam is a tzadik who made mistakes. Just because certain ideas were mistaken it doesn't invalidate the rest of them.

obviously we're not going to agree on this

Shmuel Brin

@DoubleAA Though I find it strange, why are there people (not Teimanim who have a mesora) that rule like the Rambam in everything and there aren't people that rule like, say, the Tur (or Rif, or Mordechai) in everything?

DhoweedYaAgov

listen my "rov" is a belzer einikel and a breslover chosid

he told me everything i need to know what reb nachman said bout rambam

Double AA

@ShmuelBrin IIUC it has to do with his writing an entire work encompassing everything.

DhoweedYaAgov

23:37

and i can tell you reb nachman is wrong

yoel

@DhoweedYaAgov He's definitely not, but like I said, we're not going to agree

DhoweedYaAgov

ok

Double AA

@yoel I'm not sure how you are in a position to judge. Have you read more nevuchim?

Shmuel Brin

@DoubleAA How does that change anything. 99% of Nogeya halachos are in the Tur/Mordechai/Rif, etc

yoel

@DoubleAA nope, I am relying on the Rebbe, who also said it's assur (for a Breslever) to read it.

DhoweedYaAgov

23:38

@shm

:/

Double AA

@ShmuelBrin Eh. Probably more like 80% in any one book.

yoel

I'm not judging - Rebbe Nachman isn't either, he's assessing. No judgements are passed.

DhoweedYaAgov

@ShmuelBrin supposedly "all of klal yisroayl" took upon themselves the shulchon oruch

and dropped their mesorahs for it

Double AA

@ShmuelBrin But also, the Rambam was held as the highest in a sense by the Shulchan Aruch

Shmuel Brin

@DhoweedYaAgov My question is why do people go back to the Rambam. Who said that his mesora is better than say, Tosfos or Rashi?

Double AA

23:39

@ShmuelBrin And the fact that temanim have an active mesora does help, ie it's easier to imagine switchiing from ashkenaz to sefardi than to switch to your own made up collection of halachot

Shmuel Brin

@DoubleAA I thought that it was a three way vote - Rambam, Rif and Rosh.

DhoweedYaAgov

Reb Karo wrote that those communites who had mesorah to hold like rosh and rambam who is the highest posek and much bigger than he is (his words) should hold like that

not only mesorah but especially if they had mesorah

Double AA

@ShmuelBrin That's what it was allegedly, but most of the times the rule breaks it's in favor of the rambam, and plus there are whole seifim that are lifted straight out of the Rambam.

DhoweedYaAgov

and if the community who follows S'A is the majority, it should not compel the minority communites to follow it

Also Tosofth and Rashi are basically in the same boat

Shmuel Brin

@DhoweedYaAgov I understand why the Teimanim hold like the Rambam (like Chabad holds like the Shu"a Harav even though the Mishnah Brurah/Aruch Hashulchan came later). My question is on those Ashkenazim/Sefardim who switch

DhoweedYaAgov

23:42

And I am telling you im not going to hold by tosofoth

because sechel beats mesorah

Shmuel Brin

@DhoweedYaAgov in that case you should hold like tosfos, as he gives sevaras for halachas (in contrast to the Rambam)

yoel

@DhoweedYaAgov what is even your basis for this idea

DhoweedYaAgov

on the contrary tosofoth is not on the level of rambam regarding paskening holochoth

Shmuel Brin

@DhoweedYaAgov why not?

DhoweedYaAgov

tosofoth were influenced by the christians in europe

rambam was not

tosofoth used christian pilpul methodology to get things straight, which in the outcome of these holochoth go against the gemoroh

Shmuel Brin

23:45

@DhoweedYaAgov you can claim that he was influenced by muslims, and the Tanayim were influenced by Greeks, and Moshe Rabbeinu was influenced by pagans.

2

DhoweedYaAgov

good

Shmuel Brin

@DhoweedYaAgov The Gemara uses pilpul.

2

DhoweedYaAgov

right but they made the holochoth and we cant change them

we must follow them

tosofoth on the other hand we don't

Shmuel Brin

@DhoweedYaAgov So maybe Tosfos was influenced by the Gemara and not by the Christians?

DhoweedYaAgov

if they go opposite gemoroh that is wrong

yoel

23:47

@DhoweedYaAgov are you saying you would change the gemara if you could?

DhoweedYaAgov

no we can see it was christians because it wasnt only pilpul which they used from them

yes the gemoroh needs changing

but we cant change it because there is no sanhadreen

yoel

wow

Shmuel Brin

@DhoweedYaAgov and how do you know the Rambam didn't use pilpul. He just didn't write it. Maybe the sefer that we have is like the Piskei Tosfos.

DhoweedYaAgov

because rabbeinu avarohom ban harambam says that the french rabbis who use pilpul are wasting their time

Double AA

@yoel That's not neccesarily a bad thing, provvided you don't actually do so.

DhoweedYaAgov

23:48

pilpul is a waste of time he said it is not the way of toroh

Double AA

@ShmuelBrin We're probably playing sematics here with that word.

DhoweedYaAgov

there is nothing wrong to change the gemoroh

yoel

@DoubleAA are you saying that you agree that the gemara needs changing?

DhoweedYaAgov

we just dont have the ability

Double AA

@ShmuelBrin You can. But he doesn't.

@yoel I don't think it's kefira to say so. You don't think Sanhedrin should come mevatel yom tov sheni?

DhoweedYaAgov

23:50

many rabbonim have stated that the gemoroh is wrong in many things for example science and holochoth based on science

yoel

@DoubleAA I don't think I'm on a level to say whether or not yom tov sheni should be mevatel

Shmuel Brin

@DoubleAA So that goes against the idea that "The Rambam was the true Mesora from Moshe Rabbeinu". People used pilpul (which I define as 'There are two texts that argue each other. Let's find a way for them not to contradict each other) going back to Moshe.

Double AA

@yoel I'm not deciding either. But I'm certainly open to the possiblity.

@ShmuelBrin No one really had texts after moshe rabbeinu

DhoweedYaAgov

ramchals rov wrote an entire sefer regarding the gemoroh and the holochoth based on science and why we should change them

because rabbonim in that time were arguing if they should follow those holochoth since they are not true anymore

Double AA

@ShmuelBrin it could be though that he was tru mesora until the gemara or something like that. as in, passing on what they intended.

Shmuel Brin

23:52

@DoubleAA no, but you had tannayim.

Double AA

@ShmuelBrin So long as you view the Bavli as binding in and of itself, that's as far back a mesora on psak as you need.

DhoweedYaAgov

^

Double AA

(and we can argue about that judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/13058/… )

DhoweedYaAgov

rambam writes that reb hillel and reb shammai both agreed on holochoth using the same methology

once their students came into play, they were not as smart in that methology, making their psaks not on the same level as reb hillel and reb shammai

and that is why their students disagreed with eachother

causing machloketh

Double AA

@DhoweedYaAgov We have exactly 3 machlokot between the two of them recordd

Shmuel Brin

23:54

@DhoweedYaAgov So what do you do if there are stiros in the Rambam?

DhoweedYaAgov

and he says HaShem didn't make us so that we should fix the problem

we should just follow

Double AA

got to run

yoel

@DoubleAA but anyway, @DhoweedYaAgov isn't saying that certain things need updating, he's saying Chazal were wrong c"v. I don't think I'd call that kefira in a technical sense but it's uncomfortably close.

Shmuel Brin

@DoubleAA 4 (if you count their teachers) or a few more if you count where one later retracted.

DhoweedYaAgov

this idea can apply to us today, however today rabbonim dont have the authority as the gemoroh therefore it doesnt apply

there are stirot in rambam if you have a faulty text like the vilna edition or the venice edition

but if you use the teimani edition by mori kafih

you wont have such a big problem

that is why kesef mishnah and raavad had problems with rambam, and couldnt understand how he got ot a conclusion

Shmuel Brin

23:56

@DhoweedYaAgov no stiras?

DhoweedYaAgov

because of their faulty texts

there are problems like in the gemorah

scientific problems

Shmuel Brin

@DhoweedYaAgov and in the Rambam

DhoweedYaAgov

the same problem the gemoroh has regarding killing lice on shabboth applies to rambam

both gemoroh and rambam agree that animals and insects can come out of the body

or ground

and rambam sites aristotle for this because aristotle lived in the same time as the tannoim i think

and everyone back the believed that animals and plants can sprout from the body or ground

and rambam said that you would have to be an idiot not to believe it

well i am not an idiot and i dont believe it

because science proves its not so

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Discussion with yoel, DhoweedYaAgov, …