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12:11 AM
@JoeObbish yeah but most likely they can use it or they didn't read about how it works
 
@SeanGallardy milliOns of haPpy app develOPers
I can't believe Sean thought the room would agree with a positive statement about SQL Server
this room is too spicy for Sean
like cinnamon
 
LOL
alright, goodnight, still feeling crappy and sick
 
12:41 AM
@SeanGallardy FEEL BETTER!
I can't believe I fell 15 shy of 200
You're all to blame
Voting ring is faulty
 
@ErikDarling I abstained today
 
I didn't consent to that
 
 
2 hours later…
3:11 AM
@ErikDarling it's such a drag to be so close yet so far. I've had an un-upvote kick me below 200, which is also quite nice.
 
 
8 hours later…
10:47 AM
@ErikDarling Thanks, I'm starting on the up swing now I believe. :D
@MaxVernon whatever happened to that hilarous filesystems are the exact some as databases thread?
 
@SeanGallardy self-deleted dba.stackexchange.com/q/241130
here, and the copy on SO
 
11:49 AM
ahem
it seems xml is my only friend
 
xml is nobodies friend
 
json is a pretty cool guy though
 
if query plans are ever stored in json i'll get into it
 
you could store them as json if you were a complete mad man
 
11:53 AM
looks like a virus
 
that's half the fun of the internet
2
 
 
1 hour later…
1:12 PM
I can't seem to find sys.dm_hadr_automatic_seeding on the MS docs site. Weird.
 
it's references on some docs pages
 
Oh yeah. Weird that it doesn't have it's own page in the AG DMV section.
 
after all you've seen, is it still weird?
 
o_O
 
1:38 PM
@ErikDarling Fair point haha.
 
 
1 hour later…
2:39 PM
Thanks, @josh - much appreciated
 
@ErikDarling I'll be your friend
 
are you sure my blog posts are good enough for that?
 
@MaxVernon 👍
 
@ErikDarling of course. I read little else
 
i can't figure out if that's good or bad
 
2:54 PM
me either, but we are where we are
 
@ErikDarling I think it's good…maybe
 
3:09 PM
> New option for indexes - OPTIMIZE_FOR_SEQUENTIAL_KEY
> Turns on an optimization within the database engine that helps improve throughput for high-concurrency inserts into the index. This option is intended for indexes that are prone to last-page insert contention, typically seen with indexes that have a sequential key such as an identity column, sequence, or date/time column.
 
if we were friends you would have seen me show that new column in sys.indexes yesterday
hmpf
 
I read every single tweet
It wasn't in the docs yesterday
 
i hear it's a popular feature with people who think clr doesn't scale
 
Sounds like some kind of ruse or trick. A sgam, even.
 
How are you pronouncing that so that "an" SGAM isn't correct?
 
3:14 PM
Like scam.
 
😵
 
A feeble attempt at a pun around contention.
 
crikey
 
Where's Forrest when you need him.
 
stop pining
 
3:19 PM
@JoshDarnell Has that ever happened?
 
Haha savage as.
 
that joke was a sgam
 
doubling down
not a good sign
 
access to gallery rooms can be such a transient thing
 
Hey if telling bad jokes wasn't acceptable then these chat rooms would be a wasteland
 
3:23 PM
@ErikDarling Does that optimize for sequential thing strike you as a super-useful addition?
 
Seems like "static data masking" has been a real roller coaster.
 
I ask because you have been somewhat critical of the apparent prioritisation of new features
@JoshDarnell 💀
 
@PaulWhite haven't seen it in action yet
 
@ErikDarling Me either. I mean conceptually.
 
3:26 PM
on the one hand, i like that it seems to be ground ceded by hekaton
 
that was my first reaction too
 
@PaulWhite That docs page makes it sound really badass. Bummer.
 
@JoshDarnell Yes it was a shame the implementation was completely stupid
 
> We have decided that our current prototype does not meet our customer’s expectations. We will therefore not carry this capability forward. We will update you on our plans if we have a replacement candidate.
 
It's actually because the documentation wasn't confusing enough
 
3:28 PM
The second sentence can be safely ignored I think.
 
@PaulWhite How about the third?
 
Oh sorry I meant the third.
@ErikDarling yes
 
I thought so, but wanted to be sure haha.
 
3:29 PM
> but it may also help with indexes that have hot spots in other areas of the B-Tree index structure.
so it uh
probably beats hash partitioning
 
Honestly it's the first I've heard of this idea, beyond a mysterious feature flag in 2.5 onward called BtreeInsertFlowControl
 
oh is that what that xe is?
 
I presume so, but I don't know for sure
 
it seems like it should be on by default
 
It might even be still behind a trace flag
 
3:31 PM
how many reasons do you have for believing that?
 
Only one: someone ran a perf test with that option on and off, found no difference
 
@ErikDarling 4199
I wonder what behaviour it actually modifies
 
@PaulWhite that seems like very low number
 
@ErikDarling early days
No symbols for 3.1 yet
Perhaps there won't be any
idk
 
keep an eye on arvind
anyway
unless there's some wacky side effects, i don't get why it isn't the default
who the hell even knows if they have last page contention
or when they have it
 
3:36 PM
Good idea for a blog post that
 
@ErikDarling presumably there is an overhead
 
not until that feature is active
@PaulWhite tnstaaff
 
what
 
there's no such thing as a free feature
 
3:38 PM
i was thinking about something else
dammit
 
so funny it has a typo
 
Is there a deleted answer on this question? I can't quite see it.
I wonder why they deleted. That's probably the problem.
 
@PaulWhite OLTP gets all of the love as usual
 
OltP
 
profound
 
3:41 PM
not sure how I missed that one
@JoshDarnell go to the gym and get more rep
 
@JoeObbish no u
I have more rep here than on SO now. Am I no longer a develOPer?
 
dream on, newb
 
I'm going to make a guess that's wrong and say that the mechanism for OPTIMIZE_FOR_SEQUENTIAL_KEY reuses code written to reduce PFS contention in user databases
 
is there a way to turn it on yet?
 
CREATE INDEX doesn't work?
 
3:45 PM
13 mins ago, by Paul White
Only one: someone ran a perf test with that option on and off, found no difference
 
was it a credible someone? otherwise that means nothing
 
@PaulWhite mod abuse!
 
well paul cited them
 
I got a 96 core server that's great for testing latch OPportunities for improvement
 
@JoshDarnell take it up with the management
@JoeObbish yes
@Forrest I'm only guessing that it's not on by default. It might be, just people (person) tested it wrong.
 
3:47 PM
oh I see, I didn't read the transcript carefully enough
@Lamak don't speak his name
 
@Lamak Not here, no, I don't think so.
 
I'm tempted to download 3.1 to play with it
 
@JoeObbish I didn't
@PaulWhite this room is too well behaved
 
If it is behind a trace flag, I would guess it is in the 10200-10215 range.
 
if someone writes the workload for me I'll test it
otherwise I don't care because OltP
 
3:49 PM
is this a case where (when symbols come out) you expect that debugging would show it checking for the trace flag?
 
@Lamak @PaulWhite edit the name out!
 
I don't give away all my secrets for free
@ErikDarling how's that
Also, who is Lamech?
 
@PaulWhite censorhip!....or something
 
@PaulWhite anime Lamak operating a giant robot
 
Apologies for my french
 
3:51 PM
@George.Palacios This room is family-friendly
 
Shall I flag it?
 
@Lamak We do not invoke the sh*g
 
no, never flag chat messages
 
@JoeObbish D= why not
 
@PaulWhite that's better
 
3:52 PM
@George.Palacios brings in outside attention to the room
 
@George.Palacios because then the sh*g comes
 
Ahh I see. Fair enough
 
in any case
sounds like a BIG transaction
 
2 messages moved to Trash
 
maybe he thought ADR was on
 
3:53 PM
for u
 
Strong transaction.
 
Did I miss someone explaining the Lamech thing?
 
@PaulWhite yes
 
then I shall go read the transcript
 
it was four minutes ago
 
3:55 PM
was unhelpful
 
sometimes the truth is unhelpful
 
@Lamak What's with the new name @Lamech
 
shows as L A M A K for me
 
Name completion is really confused at this point
@JoeObbish Blame caching
 
maybe he lost a bet about which features would be enterprise or not
 
3:56 PM
don't be a dork
 
OPTIMIZE_FOR_SEQUENTIAL_KEY sounds Enterprisy to me
 
Enterprisy™
SQL Server Enterprisy™
Why aren't you heading the MS Marketing team?
 
I keep it too real to be in marketing
 
Welp. That P1 has finished. I can't imagine the guy is going to have a fun morning tomorrow
 
P1?
 
3:58 PM
The swearing I was doing earlier
 
What's a P1?
 
Oh sorry. Priority1
IE the sky is falling
 
Jesus that must save a lot of keyboard replacements
 
Guy running a SELECT * brought down a customer facing website
So unlucky
 
Because it took a shared lock?
 
4:00 PM
He opened a tran explicitly, ran the SELECT, a query came to try and update a row that was locked (yeah shared), ensue huge blocking chain
then left the orffice
 
Sounds like a lack of RCSI problem
 
... I was going to correct that spelling but I think it's better
Yeah I'm trying to push the vendor to let me enable RCSI
They're worried about behavioural changes
 
17 hours ago, by Erik Darling
@SeanGallardy no because rcsi should be the default 😉
 
as a vendor I wouldn't let my customers enable RCSI either
 
4:01 PM
@JoeObbish Are you evil?
 
concerns about RCSI were a concern a decade ago
 
vendors confirmed the worst
2
 
@George.Palacios legacy
 
hah
@PaulWhite Yeah this is what I keep telling them. We just need to put it through our testing environments
 
also some people think that RCSI is unreasonable for a data warehouse. I don't personally
 
4:03 PM
but there's an ... undue amount of pushback
so I'm having to play the long game
This may help my case to be fair
 
@JoshDarnell congrats!
@ErikDarling meh
 
10k is much more exciting than 25k
 
I had to answer a question about replication to get there, so I feel a little dirty.
 
4:04 PM
> a little dirty
Josh is now half a trusted user
Everyone adjust their expectations
 
how many downvotes do I get per day? 40?
 
@JoeObbish this is when joe decides to stop abstaining
jaded joe strikes again
 
@ErikDarling what's with the @?
 
@JoshDarnell Congrats Josh!
 
are you looking for a FIGHT?
 
4:06 PM
i'm making sure people know the reason for your black eye
 
@Forrest Thanks!
 
Congrats
 
@ErikDarling I lived my life as @SeanGallardy would for one hour
 
The only question now is, who are the moderator tools
2
 
then got too hurt to continue
 
4:07 PM
@George.Palacios Preesh
 
@PaulWhite most of them are rusted shut these days
 
10k is a good milestone
the next one is like... a long way off
 
@JoeObbish pay no attention to the people behind the curtain
 
there is no next good milestone
@PaulWhite you with a few puppets on your hands?
 
@JoeObbish I meant the next milestone to be fair. But good point
 
4:10 PM
the other moderators do a lot of good work, just more behind the scenes
 
@JoeObbish Speaking in different voices
 
@George.Palacios 20k is quite a big one
 
@PaulWhite Why? Did he screw up already?
@PaulWhite which puppet does the best work? left hand or right hand?
 
@JoeObbish No, it's one of the few privilege pages actually worth reading
 
huh, you don't say
 
4:12 PM
Joe has the 🔥🔥🔥 today.
 
pretty sure I didn't read it
 
What a surprise
 
maybe I should be put on probation
@ErikDarling should do a video about it
maybe that will start a renaissance of OPs trying to get to 10k
a new golden era on DBA SE
 
@PaulWhite Will do 👍
 
@JoeObbish I'm talking about Jack, Cole, and Aaron.
 
4:15 PM
there's already one
 
is the third puppet in a family friendly location?
 
@JoeObbish what's this puppet thing about?
Oh you're making some sort of joke about Muppets?
 
I don't think my 2 cents is valuable here, but publicly it looks some moderators generate work for other moderators
always found that to be odd
I just think you could use more help
 
We share the workload pretty well. Some people are naturally more suited to some aspects than others.
Also the amount of spare time people have varies.
 
@PaulWhite I'm confused
 
4:19 PM
Aaron's earned a bit of leeway after earning 157k.
 
i have lots of free time
but i'm dumb and untrustworthy
 
@Lamak Your name was rendering as Lamech for a while.
@ErikDarling says the trusted user
 
weird, haven't made any changes...must be the giant robot I bought
 
must be
maybe Taryn did a SELECT * somewhere
 
@PaulWhite i'm working on that
 
4:28 PM
I'm busy drawing a graph to see how long it will take Josh to overtake Erik and Joe
 
Does it look like a sideways eight?
 
@PaulWhite what did I do?
 
a SELECT * somewhere?
 
@Taryn weak joke, not worth explaining
 
not me, I don't write the sql
 
4:33 PM
that's the problem then
 
I just take down the servers
 
sounds like a DAG problem
 
it was an AG problem that's for sure
I blame Sean for not fixing it
 
to be fair, maintaining indexes is a relatively new task for SQL Server
 
Someone fix Sean's everything so that he can fix all the AG problems.
 
4:42 PM
@JoeObbish In which way were you me, there's so many ;)
@Taryn Have you tried turning it off and on 3x?
 
@SeanGallardy actually I did it 4x
 
Overachiever detected
 
maybe it was the extra time that was the problem
 
5:33 PM
4
Q: Why is our query suddenly returning rows it should not (using READPAST and UPDLOCK options)?

brian beuningWe have a job table that looks like this CREATE TABLE [dbo].[Clearing]( [Skey] [decimal](19, 0) IDENTITY(1,1) NOT NULL, [BsAcctId] [int] NULL, [Status] [varchar](20) NULL, CONSTRAINT [csPk_Clearing] PRIMARY KEY CLUSTERED ( [Skey] ASC ) ) with a covering index like this CREA...

> Update 4 - Our worker processes maintain a db connection pool. ODBC does not tell us when a fail over happens, so connections to an old primary stay in the pool until we try to use them and they fail. We suspect after we failover DB1 -> DB2 -> DB1, then old connections to DB1 might not fail like they should.
That doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
 
close as too localized
 
Seems reasonable.
 
6:04 PM
only one close vote
feeling lonely
 
@ErikDarling I'm deliberating
 
not even a "sounds like an odbc problem"
 
Sorry, I was just kidding about closing it. I think it's a decent question about making assumptions when using READPAST and UPDLOCK. Even if the specific issue the OP is having was due to {made-up ODBC problem}.
 
you mean it got good answers
that don't answer the question
and might be better served as a new q&a
<mod voice>
 
deduct 100 rep from Josh
 
6:09 PM
28
 
128
 
madison judge is harsh
 
@ErikDarling That hits me right in the privilege.
Nice mod voice btw. I'd vote for you.
It seems to me that the question is asking "why might I get the same row in multiple sessions when using select...with(updlock, readpast)?" and the answers are pointing out reasons that might happen.
Maybe not every reason that might happen, given the OPs update.
 
op is asking why it's happening to them
> After the second fail over and all the worker processes get new connections to the new primary, the query starts failing in the sense that multiple processes start getting the same jobs.
that's been there from the beginning
 
The answers still seem relevant to me with that context. They are attempts to answer the question. They might not be right for this specific OP (thus no checkmark), but they could be helpful to future visitors dealing with queue problems.
Maybe I'm biased because I answered.
Perhaps Joe can arbitrate once he finishes deliberating.
@ErikDarling Did you get any responses to "What Are Your Weirdest Waits?" I was surprised I didn't see any blog comments.
 
6:29 PM
none
1 comment with basic waits
 
Weird.
Maybe wait stats are a meme.
 
shrug
 
I looked on one of my clients and they have a weird Hekaton wait as the top one. But it didn't seem like it would be all that interesting.
The "weird" part is that the numbers don't make any sense.
Both of those waits coincide with AG failovers.
Oh I guess they total up to "uptime" or something similar.
 
6:45 PM
It's funny that 1 50-hour wait is recorded.
I feel like most of the other sleep-type waits go down in, like, 5 minute intervals or something.
 
It does look good but one of my requirements is to avoid triggers at all cost, i should have added this. ill update main post — Jackal 3 mins ago
op is the worst
 
7:00 PM
OP tricks another victim
 
7:25 PM
is OPs trying to trickses us?
 
lahOud, Pam
Suspicious.
 
i'd call the police
 
7:41 PM
I answered that question asking if a dropped column is a meta-data-only operation here - is that answer fairly accurate/detailed enough?
 
an operation can be fully logged but still efficiently logged
iirc TRUNCATE TABLE is fully logged
 
did you look at is_anti_matter in system_internals_partition_columns?
2
 
@Lamak thanks for having my back
 
7:48 PM
sure...not that it's a good thing around here :)
 
That article is by the wrong Paul
 
@JoeObbish yah, it's fully logged but the entire table data is not logged. Unless I misunderstand what you mean.
 
@ErikDarling Paul Wrong sounds like a real person
 
@ErikDarling lol
 
That's the anti matter version of Paul White
 
7:51 PM
@MaxVernon It looks good to me. Might want to incorporate that nifty link @Lamak just provided.
> When a query subsequently references that table, it skips the bytes stored in each page for that column, as if the column no longer exists.
I'm sort of interested in how that works.
 
@JoshDarnell I don't think that's directly related. Deferred drop (in the context of writing to the log) is not what's happening here.
the data pages for the table are not touched at all.
there is literally nothing to log except the metadata
@JoshDarnell yah, I imagine Paul will provide a far more detailed answer than mine.
The real Paul I mean. Not the anti-matter-Paul.
 
@MaxVernon "fully logged" as I understand it just means that the same bytes are logged with simple recovery model or full recovery model
there's some confusion out there in the community about what it means
 
@JoeObbish yah, I agree. a TRUNCATE TABLE is simply logging the page numbers that have been effectively deleted. Rollback would simply undo the delete operation by marking the pages as allocated instead of unallocated.
 
@MaxVernon grumble grumble something about your hat alright fine whatever
 
@MaxVernon the way the question was asked hints at a misconception
 
7:57 PM
@JoeObbish ooooooh I get you. Let me re-read it. :-)
@George.Palacios and I had a quick conversation in The Heap about it, so I probably didn't read the question in as much detail I should have.
 
> Paul Randal says:
August 20, 2016 at 5:14 PM
Yup – it's really confusing to many people. What they should say is that the individual rows are not deleted, so they are not logged.
 
@Lamak aye, that's a much better way of putting it
 
that was a comment in response to someone quoting this:
 
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