English Language Learners - 2015-04-16 (page 1 of 3)

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12:47 AM

Hi all, does anybody know any memorable/good quotes about words ?

For e.g. I remember this one by Dumbledore (or J.K. Rowling of Harry Potter fame)

"J.K. Rowling
“Words are, in my not-so-humble opinion, our most inexhaustible source of magic. Capable of both inflicting injury, and remedying it.” " - Dumbledore to Harry Potter when they meet for the last time.

6 hours later…

6:40 AM

Can you tell us why you are asking, @shi?

Sometimes it helps people answer questions more helpfully if we share the reason we are asking.

What experience did you have that led you to think about this?

Here is an example of why I am asking:

The first thing that came into my mind after reading your question was one of my favorite quotes: "Talking about art is like dancing about architecture."

--Laurie Anderson

That's a quote about language. But is it a quote about words? Well, we can say yes or no.

@JimReynolds Hehe your message timed out too? I thought I was the only one with slow internet.

Hullo BTW!

6:56 AM

It always does that and drives me fckng nuts.

And hillo!

Go comment something here:

146

Q: About your f***ing website

Presented for your enjoyment-slash-amusement. Email received by team@stackoverflow.com from Name Jesus Christ Almighty, what a f***ing mess of a website. I'm trying to post a question. Just the one, you know, f***ing question. So I sign up for an ID and I'm sent an email that doesn't real...

discussion fun email

Haha. I am feeling stressed the past couple of hours!

I am even angry at people who ask questions which, in my opinion, do not contain enough information to help people know how to answer in a helpful way.

@JimReynolds And I'm even angry at people who are even angry and odd angry about people who are angry.

0.0

Oh. Oddly enough, people who are angry about my odd anger make me feel peaceful and balanced. Balanced: you could even say even.

o.o

7:29 AM

@JimReynolds it's because I want to write a blog post about how words are important and then go into history of some technical words, so have quotable quotes is good there.

1 hour later…

Anonymous

8:51 AM

This "noun adjunct" term is popular on ELL and ELU

Anonymous

I like "attributive noun" much better, personally

Anonymous

I still wonder where exactly the noun adjunct term comes from and where it's commonly used

Anonymous

I mean, it's a transparent compound (though not a very good one)

Anonymous

But in my experience linguists use the "attributive noun" term much more often

@snailboat I wonder if it's from Wikipedia. :-)

Good morning @snailboat!

9:02 AM

Hi!

Hi!

Anonymous

Hello!

ELL status: 15,098 questions

Hee

Anonymous

The problem is "noun adjunct" is clearly a term for an adjunct that is a noun

Anonymous

Which is not necessarily the same thing as a noun functioning attributively

9:18 AM

An attributive noun can be thought of as a layperson's adjunct, I suppose.

I mean, in a loose sense of "adjunct".

1

Q: The difference between 'robe' and 'cloak'

I'm learning new words from Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality and I don't get the difference between 'robe' and 'cloak'. The dictionary does not explain it clear to me. Here is some sample sentence from the book. robe: One of Malkin's two assistants was examining the white-haired...

I knew it! I knew it that I'm gonna see some pictures this evening!

Oh, that question reminds me of a word which I've never used for such a long, long time: tunic

Anonymous

Tunic makes me think of fantasy

I think I first found it in Ultima. ;-)

---it--- that

Chat formatting is weird!

2

Q: What is the difference between 'finished' and 'completed'?

What is the difference between 'finished' and 'completed', as both words gives the same meaning? Ex 1: He finished his homework. Ex 2: He completed his homework. And also how or where to use these words? Dictionary Reference: Completed: Finish making or doing. Finished: B...

meaning difference

I guess the most obvious difference can be observed in the contrast of "You complete me" and "You finish me".

Hi!

Hi again!

Should we use "with" after fight or not? Like an example I fight with him or I fight him?

9:29 AM

I think they sound pretty much the same, and perhaps it's more common to say "I had a fight with him".

Okay.

"I fight with him" can be ambiguous.

Yes.

Anonymous

Let's see. Wikipedia's noun adjunct page is based on SIL's glossary, which cites sources from 1954 and 1972, both of which are old dictionaries of linguistics

Ahh

9:31 AM

Like he fought with Kurdish force against ISIS.

So noun adjunct is an older term?

Does it make sense?

Makes sense. (I mean, grammatically!)

Anonymous

Could well be. Maybe it's outdated?

But it's still used by our ELL/ELU fellows.

9:32 AM

Okay

Anonymous

I guess if I want to solve the riddle I'll have to do it at a library! :-)

I wish I could be more helpful!

I am done. Thanks.

Anonymous

Fight with can mean "fight alongside" or "fight against" depending on context. With has both meanings

I agree.

I understand that.

Have a great time.

See you later.

9:34 AM

Later!

I don't think I heard the term adjunct until I showed up here.

o.o

Good evening, @Jim!

I guess an attributive noun is office in office building.

Hello, schmello!

nods

Anonymous

Although it doesn't make sense to do so, it's not unusual for dictionaries to list nouns used attributively as though they were adjectives. Unfortunately, this practice misled some of the other answerers. See Geoffrey Pullum's Lexical Categorization in English Dictionaries and Traditional Grammars for some discussion. — snailboat 10 hours ago

9:40 AM

Adjunct makes me think of War and Peace.

curious

Anonymous

I don't say "noun adjunct" when I mean "noun used attributively" personally, but just about everyone else on that Q&A seems to. I'm the odd one out!

Anonymous

At least, I feel that way. :-)

Anonymous

"Adjunct" is a useful term

Anonymous

The way it's used in CGEL, though, it doesn't apply to attributive nouns

9:44 AM

I don't doubt that it is.

Anonymous

So here we have the same term used two different ways with no discussion of what it means

To linguists and grammar enthusiasts, anyway.

Anonymous

That makes the term less useful…

It seems there was a military rank. Adjunct-lieutenant?

2

Something like that. I will try to look, since I'm now curious.

Anonymous

Making up military ranks sounds like fun

9:50 AM

Carry on, fabricator-major!

Anonymous

Yes, sir! How's life in the fictional military treating you, Vice Cadet-at-Arms Reynolds?

The food is garbage!

Anonymous

Someone needs to promote it!

Except in the Impressario-chief's officer tent.

Anonymous

Ah, they can make do with Lieutenant Crunch

9:55 AM

1

Q: 'I couldn't get up at 4:00 tomorrow.' is this sentence wrong?

Today, I(non native speaker) read a question on a Q&A in my nation. The question is 'what is difference between A and B?' A. I can't get up at 4:00 tomorrow. B. I couldn't get up at 4:00 tomorrow. everybody(we are non native speaker) said 'could' is the past form of 'can' so you can't use "coul...

I know the answer sorta answers the question, and yet I don't think it answers the crucial point of the question.

"Every one in my class condemned me that my choice 'I couldn't get up at 4:00 tomorrow' was wrong wrong. Is it really wrong?"

10:11 AM

23

A: Why "unequal" but "inequality"?

The prefixes in- and un- both have the effect of negating the meaning of the word. The prefix in- comes from Latin and almost exclusively applies to words borrowed from Latin, which in many cases were borrowed from Latin with the in- prefix already attached. The prefix un-, on the other hand, is ...

Hey, linguists indeed have a term for a phenomenon I've observed (and refer to it as "giant lotuses in a pond")! It's "blocking"!

There's no way I could condemn a sentence at 4am. I just couldn't.

@JimReynolds :D

Anonymous

Yeah, "blocking" is a useful term

Anonymous

For, as Jim Reynolds wouldn't put it, linguists and morphology enthusiasts

:D

Anonymous

10:15 AM

Derivational affixes do tend to have fairly arbitrary requirements, and some are more productive than others

Anonymous

But it's true that in this case we already have inequal in the lexicon

Anonymous

Pretend I successfully typed inequality

Anonymous

I can't edit it right now

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Have you considered writing an answer about complete?

Eh? Um... no.

There are two answers already!

Anonymous

10:21 AM

I think your example leads to the key insight

Oh, it's three now!

Anonymous

Sure, and they're fine answers, but you could write a better one

Go, Dam, Go!

Okay, I'll consider it. I'd better read the three answers a bit more carefully. :-)

I think I could write a short supplementary answer. :-)

10:37 AM

Chapter III. On returning from the review, Kutuzov took the Austrian general into his private room and, calling his adjutant, asked for some papers relating to the ...
www.online-literature.com/tolstoy/war_and_peace/31/

11:04 AM

adjutant!

Sounds like a page in the medieval time!

11:45 AM

0

Q: Is newest a right word?

Hi i am sorry if you feel my question is silly. My native language is not english. My question is 'Latest video' or 'Newest video' which one is right one? I have seen sentences like 'Newest questions in this activity' in stackoverflow.com. So just wondering which one is the right one.

Anyone want to answer his question?

(I've already posted my comment, so I think I'm gonna pass.)

@DavidWallace that's okay! As a doctor, I know that gaining weight does not happen without getting fats in your body but as I said, I won't get into it! And, I'm pretty sure the OP is asking in terms of someone getting bulky! :) — Maulik V Jan 21 at 10:29

o_O

I was trying to find the dup question of ell.stackexchange.com/questions/47369/….

Oh, the other one was one closed! ell.stackexchange.com/q/54090/3281

12:09 PM

0

Q: Using the verb 'Supply' in a sentence

Do the following sentences in each pair mean the same? These foods supply the body with necessary vitamins and minerals. These foods supply necessary vitamins and minerals to the body. They are supplying Lebanon with arms. They are supplying arms to Lebanon.

sentence-structure verb-usage

Also, does anyone want to answer this question?

(Lots of comments are in there already!)

Hullo!

> They are supplying Lebanon with arms.
They are supplying arms to Lebanon.

Gosh!

Everything gets political. I'm disgusted.

I looked it up on the OP's behalf. Here is what I found in a dictionary: latest (adj.) most recent, or newest. Should we conclude that they are always interchangeable? (Because I don't think so, though I think they are both okay in the OP's example.) — Damkerng T. 39 mins ago

Hehe! They're just example sentences!

I wonder if I made someone mad again!

@Dam even if they are interchangeable, latest video is way more common than newest video.

@DamkerngT. I'm mad. Really mad.

Eh, I thought it was about "latest questions".

Oh, yes. I glanced through the OP's examples too quick!

I'm REALLY mad.

12:19 PM

Agree about (?)newest video.

@MARamezani Hee

I'm REALLY REALLY mad!

No seriously, I'm mad.

lol

And passionate about science.

Be careful, you could turn into a mad scientist some day!

Wait, is it already too late?

@DamkerngT. BWAHAHAHAHAHHHA.

You were toooooooo late!

12:21 PM

sobbing...

trying to pet MAR... but it's too late...

user image

However, there are no test tubes with something boiling in them around me.

Oh, I heard that we have micro-test tubes instead nowadays.

@DamkerngT. Nah. I'm not hiding anything.

(I always wonder why they need that much of blood just to test something about someone.)

@DamkerngT. To make themselves look horrifying?

12:24 PM

Hahaha!

38

A: France is not within 30 miles of London

This confusion is almost certainly caused by one poet's account of a specific vantage point from which he could see both London and France. I don't remember the specific location in question, but in one of the author's other works, he devotes a number of lines to a similar sounding locale in clo...

!?!

You better read it.

Or I...

user image

That's the future today. (Can you see the picture?)

> sle.sharp.co.uk/sharp/apps/sle-web/research/health_medical/…

@DamkerngT. Yes. It's a robot toy.

12:27 PM

It's a blood testing device.

@DamkerngT. A blood testing device robot toy?

lol -- It's real!

@DamkerngT. It's a real blood testing device robot toy?

But that's just an image.

I think they are still in the prototyping phase.

But that doesn't mean that it doesn't work.

@DamkerngT. Aha. So it's a real blood testing device robot toy prototype. They overcomplicate things.

12:31 PM

giving up; in an exasperating voice... Indeed.

A giving up, exasperating real blood testing device robot toy prototype?

lol

Btw, can you reach this website: bdec.dyndns.org

I can, but the webpage is unavailable.

Oh, no "It works" thingy?

What is this? A DNS checker or something? What does it do?

12:36 PM

I tried to set up another site, just in case we might want it.

@DamkerngT. Well, Chrome said the webpage is not available. Maybe my DNS provider hates me.

@DamkerngT. Wait. It's your site?

How about bdec.dyndns.org:5280/web/jwchat/index.html?

Yes.

@DamkerngT. Welcome to JWchat!

A-ha!

So it works. :-)

Yes. And it's not censored. 0.0

12:40 PM

What do you mean?

(I've just set it up, it's probably not very secured.)

@DamkerngT. To access Jim's recommended chat, I needed to use a virtual server. That could be why Chrome was acting weird.

Ahh

Oh, you mean it's not censored as in you can reach it.

What the? Native binding?

What is that?

It's just a mode to reach to the real chat engine.

So I shouldn't touch it?

12:42 PM

JWChat is a web interface I used for internal chats, which I haven't used it for a long while.

I guess both Native Binding and Polling should work.

But maybe I need to create a user for you first.

@DamkerngT. Yeah, maybe. But not now.

Okay!

I'm off to a class.

BYE!

See you later!

1 hour later…

2:03 PM

@JonHanna I don't agree that "whose each" is grammatical. How about "the man whose the dog bit me" or "the man whose each dog bit me" or "the man whose a dog bit me" or "the man whose every dog bit me" or if we're going to allow rampant multiple central determiners "the man whose every his dog bit me"? — Araucaria yesterday

When being pushed to a limit (in considering whether an unfamiliar sentence is grammatical or not), anyone can break, I think.

Just to be clear, I think Jon Hanna's "The set whose each pair of elements..." sounds fine and should be grammatical.

Each is different from the, imho.

@Man_From_India Hello!

I've seen you posted a new answer to that question!

Note to self: check that sentence later. In any case, I didn't see MFI posting, or post the post.

Hi @DamkerngT.

Hi!

Oh yes I just posted some comments and an answer there

By the way, I think the OP's sentence isn't good, but not because of "whose each".

Hmmm Fumble Finger has already mentioned every is better there for reaason unknown

but he supported his claim with google search

2:10 PM

nods -- But I like Jon Hanna's rephrasing better.

@DamkerngT. I also think so

wait

If hannah wrote this The set whose each pair of elements...

I think this is not correct

The problem is actually in the OP's example itself. It would be clearer if he gave an example of such a set.

Oh what am I doing...Hanna is right...sorry for wrong comment above :-)

> Each pair of elements of this set has this characteristic: ...

Ah, I got the connection program with SE chat rooms a few minutes ago!

One problem with the set whose each pair of elements (or each pair of elements of this set for that matter) is that elements in a set aren't normally thought of in pairs.

It's like as if I'm saying "Each block of this matrix is ..."; unless "block" is well-defined, what I'm saying will mean nothing.

A = {1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6}

I was kicked out :-) by the way I forgot to mention you that today also I am raining fine :D

2:22 PM

How many pair of elements do we have in set A?

@Man_From_India Me too. -- I'm glad you're raining fine!

@DamkerngT. True. You explained properly. I am not sure, but OP might have some reason to consider it in pair. Well you are right that this is a bad example. I now see the reason.

On the other hand, I think "each pair of words in this list" is much clearer.

true

So, based on Jon Hanna's rephrasing, I think the OP could've wanted to mean: The list whose each pair of words is ...

I am afraid that the highest voted answer there is wrong. It claimed in the first sentence it is grammatically wrong

2:25 PM

nods -- I think that answer is paradoxical. I mean it is in conflict with itself!

@DamkerngT. yes I was writing gibberish that time about hanna's sentence.Yes I agree his rephrasing is far better.

> The short answer, I'm afraid, is 'no'. Whose each is not grammatically correct.
[...]
To alleviate any confusion, there is nothing grammatically incorrect about The set of elements whose pair is...

o_O

yes :-)

Oh, I see! It's whose pair is, not whose each pair is in the other alternative.

Reading text on screen makes me overlook a lot of things!

I still think that okay the answerer is of that opinion. It's a debatable matter whether it is accepted or not, like many other thing in language. but this answer is worst. I have not read it fully, but had read up to a considerable extent.

0

A: Is the construction "whose each" correct?

I would object first to the example's placement of the word "each", and the explanation for why I would do is quite simple. "Whose" is a possessive pronoun, and the sentence must clearly convey to whom or what the pronoun refers. Here is your example sentence: The set of elements whose each p...

Even my answer there is not that good as well.

2:29 PM

I don't think your answer is wrong, but I think your example doesn't match the OP's example very well.

Yes true.

> "But you will notice that the center of this world system is New York State, with whose each and every city, town and place the rest of the world is to be brought into contact. [...]" -- Telephone Review - Volume 8 - Page 132 books.google.co.th/books?id=OCgoAAAAYAAJ

> "... colleges we could select at least one Eleven whose each and every member would be a teetotaler ..." The Decay of Bulldogism: "secret" Chapters in Yale ... - Page 101 books.google.co.th/books?id=Tn9YAAAAYAAJ George Frederick Gundelfinger - 193

> "Leading the field by a substantial margin is the United States whose each and every citizen is consuming and using something like 1,500 gallons of water daily." Man and water: a history of hydro-technology - Page 204 books.google.co.th/books?id=UeFRAAAAMAAJ Norman Alfred Fisher Smith - 1975

Three is enough, I think. :-)

Oh, I should've fixed .co.th to .com. Sorry!

Yes it is. It clearly shows that construction is well accepted.

@DamkerngT. That's no problem :-)

But you know I am really concerned about that answer I linked to in my previous comment. Do you think that is a correct answer?

You mean the one with highest number of votes?

No no

wait

2:34 PM

Whatever happened to @CopperKettle?

this one

0

A: Is the construction "whose each" correct?

I would object first to the example's placement of the word "each", and the explanation for why I would do is quite simple. "Whose" is a possessive pronoun, and the sentence must clearly convey to whom or what the pronoun refers. Here is your example sentence: The set of elements whose each p...

@pazzo He started using a time-control app about a month ago. :-)

@pazzo Hello...I haven't seen him for quite some days

:-) yes true :-)

So, I think he wants to control the amount of time spent on ELL. That's all.

@Man_From_India reading...

okay :-)

2:37 PM

And on the Internet overall, perhaps... Anyway I thought Copperkettle was a female....

Says the one whose each nickname is in a different language

@Man_From_India I read that answer quickly; I think it's sort of okay. The answer discusses an example, then shows that it's not good, and go on to the next one, etc. I don't like the last rephrasing anyway. It's a bit cumbersome.

@pazzo Ah, I remember that he told us he's male. :-)

No matter what folks say, and what examples they can dig up whose each sounds terribly unnatural to me

@pazzo But what happened today that made you wonder about CopperKettle?

@DamkerngT. Nothing today, just now getting round to asking... ;)

I see. ;-)

I think whose every and whose each and every would sound better than whose each.

2:42 PM

his each whose rephrasing is totally wrong

(I tried to think of a weird list, and then explain it. I found that my first choice was whose every.)

at least in that sentence that answerer quoted

@Man_From_India They said "Restructuring the sentence like this makes it almost grammatically correct, ...". So it's sort of ambiguous about what they were thinking. I think they meant it wasn't really correct.

that is a choice I thought. FF couldn't explain why one is preferred over the other. But google search result does show people's preference about every in that construction

I concur in everything except your preference for "every". We can't know without context; but it is easy to imagine that the author might have had reasons for preferring each pair of which to every pair of which, and that would carry over to the version with adjectival each. — StoneyB Feb 14 '13 at 0:47

nods

2:45 PM

@DamkerngT. Yes I have seen that. But before that he tried to judge how whose each refers to its antecedent. And there I think he made some mistake.

Probably. I didn't read that post very carefully! :-)

But I'm sure I won't vote that one up.

:-) no problem. I am waiting for Araucaria's answer. Clearly he has some problems with that construction

let's see which reason he comes up with

nods

his answers are solid

so I am looking forward to it

Almost always indeed.

2:49 PM

I haven't slogged through all the answers. Hsd anyone mentioned each of whose?

@pazzo Apparently not! Only each of which.

true

going to make some tea... BBL

Well, whose with inanimate objects has prolific usage...

see u damke :-)

@pazzo yes indeed....that is a myth that it can't be used with inanimate objects.

1 hour later…

3:57 PM

I'm back! (Oh no)

@Dam are you there?

4:11 PM

Oh HULLO @Catija! Sorry. Didn't see you there.

4:25 PM

@MARamezani Back!

You forgot oh no.

:D

I'm starving.

Okay, so is anyone ready to pull that thing off?

I mean the chat.

Dunno. I set it up just in case. Maybe we don't really need it.

Whatever, It was Jimbie's invaluable and sensible idea.

4:28 PM

:-)

2

Q: “Newest” vs. “Latest”

In a case like “latest video” or “newest video”, which one is right? I have seen “newest” used on stackoverflow.com: According to the online dictionaries I checked, “latest” = “most recent” and “newest” = “of recent origin, production, purchase, etc.” So just wondering which one is the right...

meaning word-difference superlative

Funny how no one answered this.

I think they know you asked for someone to answer.

lol

Oh wait. It has an answer so tiny I couldn't see it.

0

Q: A synonym for this idiomatic expression 'on the way'?

On their way Home / on the way home, they raped her. Is there a synonym for 'on the way." I don't want to use an idiomatic expression, I have looked for possible synonyms but in vain.

synonyms alternatives single-word-request

> On their way Home / on the way home, they raped her.

O.O

I'm not the only one with a dirty mind.

A strange example sentence.

It even gets more interesting when the answerer has to repeat that at least once.

4:35 PM

She must have been raining on her way back home :D

I think the OP mistook "on the way" with maybe "alone the lines".

Hah!

(-_-)"

where is Jim today?

@Man_From_India Hullo! How are you raining?

@Man_From_India Eating ~~something~~ someone.

@DamkerngT. along

@MARamezani Sorry for the typo!

@DamkerngT. No. Your apology isn't accepted. Send me a grand, and then we talk.

4:38 PM

:D

Will it be raining? I'm a bit scared.

@DamkerngT. The grand?

Oh I have stopped just now....I am tired of raining...I have been raining continuously for the last couple of days...all roads are already water logged...the city is already on the verge of flooding...people getting angry...they lined outside my house...violence in their eyes...i got afraid..and stopped raining :-(

@Man_From_India Why is this in the form of breaking news?

@Man_From_India Aww... but the rain is important for farmers!

A man is raining...this is no less than a breaking news :D

4:39 PM

@Man_From_India BTW, news doesn't get a, I think.

@DamkerngT. all their crops have drowned..they are armed with their shining harvesting tools ready to snap at me :'(

:D

story teller...can i do good in news media? what u think?

@Man_From_India Now you're raining again?

no stopped it...MAR please shine bright(ly), so that water dries quickly...

4:42 PM

@Man_From_India How does an acid shine? Oh okay, I'll give it a shot.

Burns farmers Ooooooooops.

Argh!

I don't get why that "horrorest" question has gotten so much attention... it seems really simple.

I am sending people outside my house to ur house....All are armed with their shinning weapons...remember...

@Catija Sigh Simple questions get attention.

@Catija I can't remember how many times I've skipped that questions.

4:44 PM

@Man_From_India Pffffffffffffffffffft. I'll disintegrate their weapons.

But why does it take 9 different points of view?

@Catija The TV's broken.

Sometimes SE attracts weird things.

@DamkerngT. Like me.

Like us!

(-_-)"

4:45 PM

Like the worlllldddddddd...! Goes out singing

Maybe it's a kind of question that makes people feel like they want to share.

by the way @Catija which question we are talking about?

The 'horrorest' question.

@Man_From_India Horrorest or the scariest?

ohh i see

4:47 PM

I think it's like those questions of Code Golf and Puzzle stacks. They invoke something in people, a bit of a challenge, perhaps.

Recently Chemistry's dull. There are either textbook erratum Qs or homework Qs.

To me and MAR, Jim is the horrorest :D

:D

@MARamezani You can try asking: Why is water made of H and O?

I guess you will get either a lot of answers or a lot of downvotes. :P

@Man_From_India To you. Not to me. To me, he's just another psychic dangerous children-eating murderer with attitudes and extra chocolate.

@DamkerngT. That should be on Cognitive Science.

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