English Language Learners

F.E.

12:00 AM

@DamkerngT. Yes, the "Huddleston and Pullum" we . . .

Maybe a Pullum student could ask Pullum about that 2002 "we"?! . . .

Anonymous

@F.E. Yes, though, keep in mind that Huddleston is the only author listed for that chapter

Anonymous

And remember that it was Huddleston's grammar, before Pullum joined the project

Anonymous

journals.cambridge.org/action/…

Damkerng T.

> From: http://ell.stackexchange.com/a/26481/3281
The way *finish* is being used in "Finish X soon" is as a transitive verb, i.e. one that requires an object.
*To do* is an infinitive. It will not be interpreted as an object.

I think phrasing it as "an object" is better than phrasing it as "a noun".

F.E.

@snailboat I think Pullum was working on it, part-time or more, for like six years or so--with Huddleston. I'd think it very unusual if one of the two major authors would have a position that disagreed with the "we" decision. Hmm, maybe a Pullum student could ask Pullum about that? . . . (I know there are some (former) Pullum students on this site, well, strongly suspect it.)

Damkerng T.

12:10 AM

> Everyone wanted to go.

Is to go an object?

F.E.

@DamkerngT. I haven't caught up with the last one!

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. It's an infinitival clause, and a complement of the verb wanted

Damkerng T.

@snailboat Ah, I like that explanation!

But then it puts the argument in that answer irrelevant. (If we can want to go, why not finish to do it soon?)

Anonymous

Because complements are licensed by their heads, and finish doesn't license a to-infinitival complement.

Damkerng T.

nods -- That makes sense, though I'm not sure how well most learners can understand it.

Simplifying the concepts and still being able to keep them technically correct at the same time is hard.

Anonymous

12:18 AM

Well, you could dumb it down. "You have to remember whether you say verb TO X or verb X-ing. It depends on the verb. Want to do but finish doing"

Anonymous

People don't like that explanation much, though. They usually want a general rule for when to say one or the other, without having to learn which verbs license which types of complements.

Damkerng T.

Frankly, I think that is probably the way we should go on ELL. Though I know that most learners don't like it. (Huh? Do I really have to remember each of them case by case?)

nods

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. There are patterns in complementation, but it's lexical

Anonymous

So it's not wholly predictable.

Damkerng T.

There are? (I didn't know that we have them!)

Is there a link to some places that I can find these patterns?

Anonymous

12:22 AM

Uh :-)

Anonymous

The only patterns I can point out off the top of my head are in Japanese.

Damkerng T.

lol

Anonymous

Have you read about the Great Complement Shift?

Damkerng T.

No. I think I haven't read about it before.

> The GCS is characterized by variation and change in a number of patterns of sentential complementation, especially the spread of to -ing complements at the expense of to infinitives.

Oh, sounds very interesting!

Anonymous

It's a term from Rohdenburg 2006, The role of functional constraints in the evolution of the English complementation system

Anonymous

12:27 AM

Anyway, that's a starting point for you. There are attempts at semantic characterizations

Damkerng T.

nods -- Thanks for the pointer!

F.E.

1

Q: Why to use “was”?

I was married to a beautiful girl. I married to a beautiful girl. I was connected to the internet. I connected to the internet. Why do we use was in the first sentence?

grammar

That's a good one! :) But the wrong question was asked. OP should ask: "#2 is ungrammatical, but #4 is grammatical. Why?"

Damkerng T.

Even I married a beautiful girl. still sounds weird to me.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. That sounds fine to me.

Damkerng T.

Ah, I see.

F.E.

12:34 AM

@DamkerngT. Don't put yourself down! I'm sure you're a handsome robot! There's a beautiful girl out there for you! :D

Damkerng T.

I think I'm not very used to this marry (v.) and married (adj.).

F.E.

@DamkerngT. Er, what adjective "married"?

Damkerng T.

Is married in I'm married. an adjective?

Anonymous

It's probably listed as a participial adjective, derived from the verb form.

Anonymous

> I'm married [by a priest].

Anonymous

12:36 AM

Hmm…

Anonymous

> Married life is tough.

Anonymous

Hrm…

Damkerng T.

I think of it in I'm married as an adjective.

F.E.

@snailboat Except that many past-participles can realize attributive modifier function in noun phrases. :)

Anonymous

Sometimes words really are derived, though:

Anonymous

12:38 AM

> Our life together as young naval marrieds was to begin in Alexandria.

F.E.

@snailboat Though, it might take me a while to come up with a passive (or perfect) interpretation for that one . . .

Damkerng T.

Hah! marrieds!

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. S'from the OED, a cite from 1972

F.E.

I think those "marry/married" examples have caused many, many debates on grammar forums . . . for many rainy days . . .

Anonymous

It can be ambiguous whether a thing shaped like a verb form is actually still a verb form or is a derived adjective. Sometimes it's not ambiguous.

F.E.

12:40 AM

Er, then the verb form ain't a verb form no more . :)

I like to use "shape" . . .

Anonymous

Fine, I'll edit, Mr. Picky.

F.E.

But then everyone asks "Huh?"

And then I have to use "appearance" . . .

Anonymous

> 1. It was broken deliberately, out of spite. [past participle form of verb]

Anonymous

> 2. It didn't look broken to me. [past-participial adjective]

Anonymous

> 3. It was broken. [ambiguous]

Anonymous

12:42 AM

(CGEL p.79)

F.E.

Wait, do you have a soft-copy of CGEL?

Anonymous

I typed it up then pasted one line at a time

Anonymous

I'm used to doing that, because formatting doesn't work right on multi-line messages

Damkerng T.

Snails can type really fast. :)

Tigers have good eyes and ears. :)

F.E.

With what, your single "foot"?

Anonymous

12:43 AM

See, I even bolded :-)

F.E.

So you got electronic files?

Anonymous

I just said I typed it up

F.E.

But that was only a few seconds?

Anonymous

Let's see. How long did it take me?

F.E.

What do you use for that "excerpt" LHS marker?

Damkerng T.

12:44 AM

What are robots good at, or good for? Umm...

Anonymous

You type >

F.E.

Oh, obvious. :(

Anonymous

Hey, it did take me less than a minute. Both messages say 17:41

Damkerng T.

mopping the floor, mopping the floor, la di dah, la di dah...

Anonymous

Yay, me! But no, I typed it into an xterm, and then copied and pasted each line in here.

F.E.

12:46 AM

Oh! Oh! Oh! I got me a comment of ERROR on page 79. :)

Tigers type slow, so it might be a while for me to type the two lines of CGEL in here . . .

Anonymous

Which refers forward to Chapter 16, where we find:

Anonymous

> They were married. [ambiguous]

Anonymous

> Compare They were married last week in London (verbal) and Hardly anyone knew that they were married - that they had been for over ten years (adjectival).

Damkerng T.

I'm glad that CGEL clearly says it's ambiguous.

Anonymous

Well, their example has were. With am one interpretation is more strongly favored :-)

F.E.

12:50 AM

@snailboat That's because of that understood adjunct: "for over ten years" . . .

> CGEL page 79: … if the word in question can be modified by very or too it must be an adjective, not a verb, but if it can't be so modified it could be either.

I guess one could argue over the meaning of "can", as it is being used there . . .

"He was/got frightened" -- that CGEL page 79 statement seems to be saying that it must be using an adjective there. :(

Which, of course, is not true.

Damkerng T.

trying to figure out why this ell.stackexchange.com/q/26413/3281 was made a community wiki question...

Anonymous

> He was frightened [by the Atlas moth, which decided for some reason that his face was a good place to land].

Damkerng T.

@snailboat Argh! A very scary scene!

F.E.

@snailboat Because of the adjunct, . . . But tigers don't get frightened by no moth!

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. I like moths.

Damkerng T.

12:59 AM

Atlas moths are so huge!

F.E.

Snails eat moths?

Anonymous

I've never seen a moth that large in person. Though my grandfather was a lepidopterist

Anonymous

@F.E. Too scaly.

F.E.

Moths are scaly? . . . Well, I guess if you're the size of a snail, maybe so . . .

To a tiger, moths are like dry snow flakes.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. The kanji for moth: 蛾 with the semantic 虫 "bug" on the left and the phonetic 我 ga on the right, possibly indicating their halberd-like antennae semantically

F.E.

1:01 AM

Summer snowflakes.

Damkerng T.

@F.E. But... but... they're huge!

@snailboat That ga looks like the Chinese letter for I.

Anonymous

Lepidoptera are lepido- "scale" ptera "wings"

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Yes, 我 GA, ware is "I" but literally is a pictograph of a halberd 戈 with tassels

Anonymous

Also 吾

Damkerng T.

Ahh... 我 is the only one I know. (In Chinese)

Anonymous

1:04 AM

我 is wo \/ and 吾 is wu /

Anonymous

In Mandarin

Anonymous

I'm too lazy to type diacritics. Sorry :-)

Damkerng T.

Oh! In Mandarin too!

Anonymous

But Japanese preserves the older g sound in both, in Middle Chinese a velar nasal, I think

Anonymous

[ŋ]

Damkerng T.

1:05 AM

nods

Anonymous

Does Thai have a borrowed Sino-Thai 我?

Damkerng T.

Oh, I love you in Cantonese sounds really funny. (They think that themselves, too.)

@snailboat Not this one.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Because of the initial velar nasal?

Damkerng T.

@snailboat Oh, actually, we have one. Though it's not very common nowadays, I think.

@snailboat nods -- And the tones too. All three syllables are in low tones. :)

Anonymous

Cantonese is more conservative in that way than Mandarin

Anonymous

1:07 AM

In terms of sound change.

Anonymous

Oh, I don't know the proper Cantonese tones for that phrase

Anonymous

Although one of my good friends is a native speaker of Cantonese, I barely know any at all

Anonymous

Still, I can fake a little bit of knowledge by thinking about cognates and sound changes :-)

Damkerng T.

cantonesepod.com/pods/2008/06/30/…

Anonymous

Someone called me an expert on Japanese today! I had to disabuse them of the notion. I'm no expert!

Anonymous

1:11 AM

I just enjoy talking about language, and sometimes that fools people into thinking I know what I'm talking about :-)

Damkerng T.

That sound clip sounds a little different from what I've heard, but close enough. :)

Sometimes I think there is a lost in translation between the asker and answerers in ELL questions.

Yet, the asker usually subsides.

(Probably subside is not the right word. Maybe yield or concede or simply accept the answers.)

Of course, this varies from one asker to another. Some askers are really on the opposite end of the spectrum.

I answered this: ell.stackexchange.com/a/26450/3281, because it was (and still is) clear to me that BobRodes' answer is misleading, enough that the OP had to ask another question: ell.stackexchange.com/questions/26437/break-a-cup-of-his-own.

Anonymous

Bob Rodes is an English teacher, I think

Anonymous

His profile doesn't say so, but I think he said so once

Damkerng T.

I don't think his answer is absolutely wrong, but it's quite misleading.

Anonymous

Hmm…

Damkerng T.

1:24 AM

Then in the other question: user3709296's answer (also Esoteric Screen Name's comment) interpreted case #1 in the question differently from what the OP meant, I think.

It's quite clear to me that all of our three answerers were misled by the contexts.

Anonymous

I don't think took his gamble is a valid paraphrase of took a gamble of his own

Damkerng T.

Usually not, I think.

But approximately, I think it's good enough.

Frankly, I couldn't understand this sentence the first time I read it:

> Detroit took a gamble on Scott Green a year after the Tigers' third-round draft pick took a gamble of his own.

Not until I knew this:

> To understand this question, it's probably important to know that both Detroit and Tigers refer to the same team in Major League Baseball. Also, Tigers' third-round draft pick refers to Scott Green himself.

Anonymous

The sentence does seem to imply that, although I wasn't aware of either fact

Anonymous

I think maybe of his own could be paraphrased himself here

Damkerng T.

Oh, that sounds good too! I think it's even better than what we have in answers.

Anonymous

1:34 AM

I'm not sure how to analyze a X of Y's own

Anonymous

I feel like the indefinite article there is important

Anonymous

Compare: a home of your own and your home

Anonymous

"Hey, how would you like a home of your very own?"

Anonymous

??"Hey, how would you like your home?"

Damkerng T.

> In other words, saying "he took a gamble of his own" is a kind of emphasis. It will give an impression similar to saying "he took a gamble, and that gamble was his, and no one else's".

I analyzed it that way.

It might not be the best way to explain it, but I hope it's good enough.

Anonymous

1:39 AM

Although it's phrased like it's possessive, I feel like semantically it's emphasizing the actor (contrasting it with the other risk-taker in the sentence)

Damkerng T.

In the Detroit context, yes, I believe so.

I think we can also understand it literally as Detroit's gamble vs. his gamble (last year).

Avinash Raj

I had completed BTech IT without getting even a single arrear.
I have completed BTech IT without any history of arrears.

which one is correct?

How do i modify the above sentence? Please help me.

Damkerng T.

Which tense do you want to use?

Btw, welcome to ELL chat room!

Also, without any arrears is enough, in my opinion.

Anonymous

Why not just I completed?

Avinash Raj

1:54 AM

I completed my degree course on 2013

@DamkerngT. we already talked in this room.

Damkerng T.

Oh! Please forgive me. My memory doesn't work well sometimes.

Avinash Raj

So the correct sentence would be

I completed BTech IT course without any arrears.

Damkerng T.

That sounds good to me.

Avinash Raj

@DamkerngT. it sounds like, at that time of studying i got some arrears and at the completion of my course i cleared all.

isn't it?

Damkerng T.

That's possible but unlikely, in my opinion.

Hmm...

If you want to emphasize it a little more, how about this:

> I completed BTech IT course without a single record of arrears of any kinds.

Anonymous

2:00 AM

It sounds like you had no arrears. (Arrears? Does that mean being late on your homework or something?)

Damkerng T.

Though I think it's not a good idea to emphasize anything undesirable, even though it's about what you hadn't done.

Like, "I didn't smoke."

Reading that will evoke the idea of "smoking", unavoidably.

Avinash Raj

i'm trying to wrote it on CV.

only 20% of college students would completed his course without getting even an single arrear.

Damkerng T.

Ahh

Avinash Raj

I would help to differentiate me from others.

Damkerng T.

Then probably you should add that to your CV.

(Otherwise, the reader might wonder why you have to bring it up.)

Avinash Raj

2:05 AM

@snailboat I got arrear in physics means i failed to get the minimum pass mark on that subject.

He have to clear that arrear in the next semester.

not compulsory.

Damkerng T.

Hmm... I think arrears means something else.

Anonymous

Ahh

Damkerng T.

I probably write this instead: without failing any classes

Avinash Raj

He get the degree certificate only when he cleared all the subjects studied from (1st year to final year).

cleared means getting passed.

Indian Educational system. I donno about the educational system in other countries.

Damkerng T.

Probably similar, but with different terms. Arrears made me think of something like I broke some test tubes in a lab, and I still haven't paid the institute back the damages I had done.

Avinash Raj

2:12 AM

@DamkerngT. lol

Damkerng T.

That was what I thought, really. :)

Avinash Raj

I completed my BTech Degree course without any history of arrears.

this i'm going to write.

Damkerng T.

That sounds fine to me too, assuming that the reader knows what your arrears means.

Avinash Raj

yep. He knows.

Damkerng T.

:D

Avinash Raj

2:16 AM

oh i missed two easy questions on SO.

Damkerng T.

It's strange that I don't see any current moderators running for 2014 ELU election.

Is there any rule or something that doesn't allow them?

Avinash Raj

where to attach my photo oc CV? on the top-right or top-left?

Damkerng T.

I guess either is fine.

If they didn't specify its position, my default is top-right.

Avinash Raj

2:33 AM

They didn't.

But i put my mail-id, and address on the top right.

Damkerng T.

Top-left is also fine.

Avinash Raj

What are the informations to be filled in passport details?

passport number then?

Damkerng T.

I think at least the number, date issued, and expired.

Oh, and the authority (who issued it) too. (which should include the country of origin)

Avinash Raj

Did i have to include place of issue?

Damkerng T.

I think you should, though if the authority's name makes it obvious, perhaps you might not need to repeat it.

Usually, it should be something like Ministry of Foreign Affairs, XYZ. (where XYZ is the country's name)

Avinash Raj

2:42 AM

Ministry of Foreign Affairs, India.

but it isn't mentioned in the page which contains my photo.

Damkerng T.

I guess. What is the official name of the ministry in India? (I think you should be able to see it in the passport.)

Avinash Raj

Place of Birth necessary?

Damkerng T.

I think it's a good idea to include it.

Wait, is this CV domestic or international? (I guess it's the latter.)

Avinash Raj

international.

Damkerng T.

nods -- Then, I think you should include such information.

Avinash Raj

3:14 AM

@DamkerngT. @snailboat Thanks :-) see you later.

Damkerng T.

You're welcome. Good luck with the CV!

Oh, @Fantasier is here.

Fantasier

I am :)

Damkerng T.

I think the sound in เซ็นทั่น is not a schwa.

I bet that that vowel is similar to the one in หมอฟัน. :)

Fantasier

I mean, she didn't say it เซ็นทั่น. Well, in her mind it's เซ็นทั่น

She spoke the word quickly, so I probably heard the schwa... or not :P

Damkerng T.

Also, phonemically, we don't have the schwa sound, but that doesn't mean that some of our particular utterances can be something close to a schwa.

Like sometimes, our ร can be like a ด, or a ล can be like a flap-t or even a /d/ in English.

Oh, having three keyboard layouts is not very fun. :D

Fantasier

3:20 AM

I have two. When I wanna type Japanese I just go to lexilogos.com/keyboard/japanese.php

Hmm

Damkerng T.

Oh, that's a good tip. Thanks!

ありがとうございます！

(It's the 10th day on Japanese for me.)

Fantasier

I haven't learnt a proper response to a thank yet :P (If there's one, that is)

Or maybe I have, but I quickly forgot after I learnt it.

Damkerng T.

:D

Ahh... I dropped a not again. I meant to say "that doesn't mean that some of our particular utterances can't be something close to a schwa."

Fantasier

Yeah, I noticed.

Damkerng T.

I guess that many of vowels in our utterances could be consider a schwa phonetically, but perhaps not phycholinguistically, and imo, not phonemically.

Fantasier

3:35 AM

Hmm, yeah, certainly not phonemically.

Damkerng T.

*psychoacoustically

F.E.

5:58 AM

. . . burp . . . yawn . . . (rolls over onto other side, falls back to sleep)

Anonymous

6:19 AM

@Fantasier I type Japanese too often and in too many programs to use a website for it :-)

Damkerng T.

7:53 AM

I think this is a good answer without the last example. I would upvote this answer if it were edited out. — Damkerng T. 41 secs ago

Anonymous

The last example isn't even correct.

Damkerng T.

Probably a typo, or a false plural form. :)

Damkerng T.

10:16 AM

@J.R for your edit - Cannot I say, "I have a doubt" if the doubt is only about meeting someone out of my knowledge? No doubts? — Maulik V 2 hours ago

Anonymous

Can't I say or Can I not say

Damkerng T.

Wait, I think I've never started a question with cannot before. (It's always can't.) I probably need to check my grammar books.

You finished your answer even before I could finish my explanation!

Anonymous

Haha.

Anonymous

Think of it this way:

Anonymous

Contraction to can't takes place before inversion, never after. Merging to cannot takes place after, so inversion blocks it, because it separates can from not

Anonymous

10:20 AM

Can't and cannot both form from can + not when the two words are next to each other. But they form at different points in the sentence formation process.

Damkerng T.

nods -- Instinctively, it sounded really odd to me trying to read that comment of Maulik's.

Anonymous

"I can not" → "I can't" → "Can't I?"
"I can not" → "Can I not" → (*cannot merging is blocked because inversion has already taken place, and "can" and "not" are no longer next to each other)

Anonymous

It seems to be a common ELL error.

Anonymous

Note, however, that can and not can end up next to each other in the final sentence if that sentence has a Heavy NP Shift

Damkerng T.

nods

I haven't seen that comment until I saw that a doubt question.

Anonymous

10:24 AM

In these cases, inversion takes place, but the subject is displaced to the right of not after inversion

Damkerng T.

Which made me think... It's probably weird to say, "Please, hurry, I need two waters!"

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Countifying water is usual only in a few situations, such as when ordering at a restaurant

Anonymous

"Yes, and I'd like two waters, please. Thank you!"

Damkerng T.

nods

@snailboat trying to think of an example...

Anonymous

Although it's possible in other situations where you'd like to count containers of water: "Yeah, I brought three waters (= 'bottles of water'), so we can each hydrate on the trail"

Anonymous

10:27 AM

@DamkerngT. It's characteristic of formal style.

Anonymous

I can't recall an example off the top of my head.

Anonymous

Not something you'd say in ordinary English, but in a formal speech when you have a particularly long subject and you're making a rhetorical point

Anonymous

Haha, I found an example in heavy metal:

Anonymous

►

Anonymous

Lyrics begin around 1:10

Anonymous

10:36 AM

Not a fan of death metal voice, though.

Anonymous

Well, it's not the most inspired song I've ever heard.

Damkerng T.

Is that grammatical? :)

Also, it's quite difficult for me to understand what he sang.

> Can not a man of modern day find truth in what he'd learned?

I think.

Anonymous

I took it as a heavy NP shift:
> [A man of modern day] can not find truth in what he's learned　(declarative)
> Can [A man of modern day] not find truth in what he's learned　(SAI → interrogative)
> Can not [a man of modern day] find truth in what he's learned　(heavy NP shift)

Anonymous

I can't hear the 's, but the lyrics say it's there.

Anonymous

Overall I can understand 95% of the death metal voice in this song

Anonymous

10:43 AM

But it's not easy

Anonymous

And I can't quite hear 100% of it, even after reading the lyrics

Damkerng T.

I had to repeat the first line several times.

Anonymous

It's okay. There are bands I'd much rather listen to.

Anonymous

I'm going to listen to Babymetal again. All my friends hate Babymetal so far. :-)

Anonymous

►

Anonymous

10:45 AM

The song is ぎみちょこ in hiragana

Nico

@snailboat You can always listen to Mick Jagger for a "finer" example of pronunciation:

►

Anonymous

@Nico Hah

Nico

Sorry for barging in. Couldn't help it!

Anonymous

Don't apologize! Barge! :-)

Damkerng T.

Hahaha! I thought Babymetal were an English band.

Anonymous

10:46 AM

@DamkerngT. Nope! :-)

Damkerng T.

Umm... I think they're cute in a weird way. :)

Anonymous

Me too.

Anonymous

I like their little act

Anonymous

Hey, you could use Japanese music to get used to hearing sounds :-)

Damkerng T.

Oh, that heart gesture is very popular!

Anonymous

10:47 AM

Possibly not BABYMETAL.

Damkerng T.

I think Babymetal could become an earworm easily!

Anonymous

Oh, I've listened to it a lot.

Anonymous

This song is ぎみちょこ　= "gimme choco"

Anonymous

The lyrics are very simple

Damkerng T.

Better not let it repeat too many times. :)

Anonymous

10:49 AM

rocklyric.jp/lyric.php?sid=146951/…

Damkerng T.

ぱぱぱ　ぱぱぱ　ぱぱぱ　ぱぱぱぱぱ！

Anonymous

You should be able to read most of it now, except for マダ　(= まだ), チョコレート (can you recognize this yet?)

Anonymous

> でもね　ちょっとWeight　ちょっと最近　心配なんです　　　　　＝
> でもね　ちょっとWeight　ちょっとさいきん　しんぱいなんです

Damkerng T.

Not yet. But I can tell that it looks very familiar!

Anonymous

超 = ちょう "super" (a slang prefix)

Anonymous

10:50 AM

ちょう is a slang intensifier

Anonymous

The song is about the existential conflict between wanting to be given chocolate, and yet, not wanting to become fat from eating lots of chocolate. Poetry!

Damkerng T.

@Nico Compared to the other song (All That Remains), this one can be my easy listening easily. :)

Hello, @Nico!

Nico

Hi

I wouldn't say Jagger has the Queen's diction though. :p

Anonymous

Who does? Apart from the Quen

Damkerng T.

:D

Anonymous

10:55 AM