English Language Learners

5:43 AM

- I did a search and there are indeed instances of being being omitted in headlinese!

Anonymous

@CopperKettle I was writing this comment: It's not standard, but it works in a headline: google.co.jp/search?q=%22after+hit+by+truck%22&tbm=nws

Anonymous

But I was too slow! Darned phone

(0:

I scrapped my answer before being hit by further comments

Anonymous

Yes, all forms of be can be omitted in headlines

Anonymous

More or less

5:44 AM

nods - now I know

Anonymous

Headlines are fairly conventionalized, though some headline writers (particularly in the UK) are spectacularly bad at it

I know. Some headlines at BBC are hard to decipher

Anonymous

languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=9616

"noun pile", a good term

Anonymous

But Americans are trying to give them a run for their money :-)

5:47 AM

(0:

56 000 results for "dies after being hit" vs 3000 for "dies after hit" in Google News

but zero results in Ngram

Anonymous

Does Google Books include newspapers?

probably no

I'm not sure

Q: What is the difference between "How do I know?" and "How would I know?"

6:31 AM

1

I am unable to understand the meaning and correct usage of the above two sentences. Can anyone please explain their differences in meaning and usage?

speech

A mindboggling question

Anonymous

Without context, both are polysemous

Anonymous

That makes answering hard

nods

Generally speaking, I would say that would is "conditional"

If, say, asked by a learner in real life

Anonymous

I wouldn't venture to answer this question without context

Anonymous

"You, my friend, are a millionaire! How do/would I know? Simple! You've got a million dollars in cash pinned to your hat!"

6:41 AM

would is a more "polite" way to ask

Anonymous

Because it's more indirect, I assume

"He paid $100 to the agent." - to the agent is omissible: "He paid $100"

Anonymous

"How much did he pay?" "He paid $100"

So it must be an adjunct..

Anonymous

Actually, most verbs are flexible to some extent when it comes to what they must take as complementation

Anonymous

6:43 AM

Pullum writes that verbs that have truly obligatory objects are extremely rare

Anonymous

In the errata for CGEL, he writes that the short list they give is, in fact, too long... :-)

Anonymous

lel.ed.ac.uk/~gpullum/cgelerrata.html

Anonymous

So you should probably be prepared for some flexibility there, but in this case...

Anonymous

"Can I pay by credit card?" "Sure, you can pay however you like."

Anonymous

"Crime doesn't pay."

Anonymous

6:46 AM

"You won't be allowed to enter unless you pay."

Anonymous

"I'll make you pay!"

Wikipedia says somethign about "optional arguments"..

Adjunct (grammar)

In linguistics, an adjunct is an optional, or structurally dispensable, part of a sentence, clause, or phrase that, if removed or discarded, will not otherwise affect the remainder of the sentence. Example: In the sentence "John helped Bill in Central Park ", the phrase in Central Park is an adjunct. A more detailed definition of the adjunct emphasizes its attribute as a modifying form, word, or phrase that depends on another form, word, or phrase, being an element of clause structure with adverbial function. An adjunct is not an argument (nor is it a predicative expression), and an argument is...

Anonymous

It's easy to come up with examples with no complements

Anonymous

@CopperKettle In Japanese, all arguments are optional :-)

In Russian, there are also sentences consisting of a verb only (0:

Anonymous

6:48 AM

Whether something is obligatory is one test to indicate complement-hood. (Or argument-hood. Whatever.)

"Приплыли" (we/they have arrived by ship)

Anonymous

We can come up with at least four tests.

Anonymous

First, let's see what Wikipedia says...

Anonymous

→ en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adjunct_%28grammar%29#Other_diagnostics

Anonymous

From the page you linked me to

Anonymous

6:53 AM

This page is helpful but is missing the key idea that complements are licensed by their heads

Anonymous

Turn to page 219 for CGEL's account

nods - thank you!

Anonymous

I was in the other room making tea and I no longer remember how our discussion started!

Anonymous

So let me know if I've failed to respond to anything important :-)

No, you've missed nothing of importance! (0:

... or should it be you missed..

Anonymous

6:58 AM

I thought your original sentence sounded fine

Anonymous

The simple past would also be possible

Anonymous

Alternatively, you could move the negation: "No, you didn't miss anything important!" :-)

"negation over the head"

(0:

Anonymous

Did you end up un-deleting your answer about headlinese?

No, I remodeled it a little

Anonymous

7:00 AM

I haven't had a chance to look yet

A: "Man dies after hit by truck" - or "Man dies after BEING hit by truck" - the difference?

2

I was surprised to learn that both sentences would look acceptable in a newspaper headline (thanks to Snailboat's comment below), so I remodeled my answer a little: Man dies after being hit by truck. The word "being" helps create the Passive Voice: A truck hit a man. (active voice) ->...

It could also mean 'success', as in the music business. Man dies after hit by alt-rock indie band, 'truck'. Band reported to be making a killing. — Damien H 27 mins ago

(speaking of noun piling)

Anonymous

That's funny! But impossible

Anonymous

Headlines are written, not spoken, and their ambiguity is only possible in speech

(0:

I've got to unplug for some work. (0:

Bye!

Anonymous

See you later!

Anonymous

7:05 AM

Actually, if the HEADLINE WERE IN ALL CAPITALS, the ambiguity would be possible

Anonymous

Because proper nouns would no longer be distinguished

Hi everyone

10:19 AM

@snailboat An apostrophe-s could help! Madonna's Addicted to Sweat Dance Plugs Toronto Condos: Mortgages

Amazing story

2

10:31 AM

@infinitesimal Very interesting! I've looked at his Wikipedia page. Will now read the article.

Enjoy my friend :-)

Q: "Did you see (have you seen) what they did to our city (have/had done to our city)?": sequence of tenses

11:14 AM

> Just call it what it is, 'chocolate pudding'. Anyone who knows what it is, will know, and anyone who doesn't, won't— whatever the name.
http://ell.stackexchange.com/a/49191/3281

That makes sense!

1

I've got five similar sentences that I'd like you guys to check. Below each one I'll write my take on the meaning. Please, tell me if they all are correct and if my understanding of them is correct as well. Did you see what they did to our city? The most basic question, this one is 10...

tense questions tense-agreement

> 1. Did you see what they did to our city?
2. Did you see what they had done to our city?
3. Did you see what they have done to our city?
4. Have you seen what they have done to our city?
5. Have you seen what they did to our city?

°_°

I'm sure all of them are fine (even #3, the one the OP is much concerned about).

Which one is correct?

All of them.

A ha

11:25 AM

However, that doesn't make each of them always correct all the time.

They will give us the papers to start the exam

Papers, as in "pieces of paper"?

We r about to start

Ahh

It's paper, not papers.

Yes the pieces of paper

Paper?

11:27 AM

Yes. The paper you're thinking of is uncountable.

lo!

Everyone will get one piece of paper

nods

Ok

Like piece of advice

Yes!

Bye gotta go

11:29 AM

Good luck!

@DamkerngT. Though I'm quite sure they're all fine. I don't know how to explain to the OP why they are fine and when they are fine. I'd better leave that for others.

A: How to use the phrase through the "eyes of"?

11:48 AM

0

Based on the OP's clarification in a comment, the OP is asking if Set-top through the eyes of a chip vendor - Broadcom is good as the title of a topic, with another alternative: Understanding of set-top through the eyes of a chip vendor - Broadcom. Short answer: Yes, through the eyes is good as ...

I think this could even be better:

> Set-top boxes: through the eyes of a chip vender, Broadcom

But I think the colon is not absolutely needed. (I didn't mention it in my answer.)

Don't just call it a 'chocolate pudding' or people will think of baked deserts like this! — curiousdannii 2 hours ago

Interesting!

12:06 PM

> ell.stackexchange.com/q/49221/3281

Hmm... One hour passed. Not even a comment!

It looks like it's Asian English. I think this is the best way to translate them (even though dictionaries would define positive as "completely certain): "I'm positive" = "I think 'yes'."; "I'm negative" = "I think 'no'." — Damkerng T. 1 min ago

Proudly presented: Asian English!

12:40 PM

Do you say "The report doesn't have to be ready by Friday" too ? — Murat 41 mins ago

Interesting. My gut feeling says, yes.

@DamkerngT. I was just thinking about in what situation this can be used. Yes I think there are numerous situation where we can use this sentence.

For example if you are dealing with two task, and the other task has got immediate and urgent priority, your boss might say

> This report doesn't have to be ready by Friday, but make sure you utilize all your time to finish off the presentation.

Yes. That's possible.

I think Murat's focus is only on by and until, though.

Ohh I am sorry I haven't checked that qiestion :-)

Apparently, J.R. already mentioned (at least implied) that "The report doesn't have to be ready until Friday" is good.

So, it's fair that Murat will wonder if "The report doesn't have to be ready by Friday" is okay, too.

seems good too

12:45 PM

Yes. I think it's because the negation.

here in my view I prefer by over until

Me too. I think I like by a little better, but until doesn't really sound wrong.

(It would sound wrong in positive sentences, though. Like, "You have to finish this report until Friday.")

Grammatically no question of incorrectness :-)

:-)

@DamkerngT. too weird :-)

A: "Did you see (have you seen) what they did to our city (have/had done to our city)?": sequence of tenses

12:48 PM

Hehe!

0

Did you see what they did to our city? OK. Did you see what they had done to our city [before they pulled out]? OK. But requires some additional temporal context. Did you see what they have done to our city? OK. Have you seen what they have done to our ci...

I hesitate to upvote it. I mean, it's definitely correct, but ...

(feel free to fill in the ellipses after but.)

:-)

> Unlikely to come from the mouth of an AmE speaker because the repetition of pres-perf is clunky and a bit jarring time-wise..

> Have you seen what they have done to our city?

Apparently, he doesn't like two past perfects put beside one another.

That is what TRomano wrote

nods

This is questionable. I mean this objection

12:59 PM

That reminds me of a phrase StoneyB usually uses for the fear of two -ing verbs, one after another.

> He was trying swimming for the first time.

Some people just avoid that the best they can.

I see..TRomano wrote it's not something a native speaker is gonna say.

Ah, found it.

> [...] the horror aequi principle: hearers and readers don't like immediately consecutive uses of the same construction in different roles.

> ell.stackexchange.com/questions/44078/…

@Man_From_India Yes.

Not exactly the same as the case of TRomano's judgement in his answer, but that's what I was reminded of.

yes that is interesting discussion. Let me read that till the end

This is interesting also

That doubl-ing constraint applies to only a small set of verbs. That's a grammatical constraint. But there is also a matter of "sound", when often a double -ing sequence can sound awkward or not so pleasant (even though it might be grammatically acceptable), and the given answer posts in your thread have addressed that issue. :) — F.E. Dec 27 '14 at 18:57

nods

brb

2:29 PM

Poetry quote of the day.

"Altogether elsewhere, vast
Herds of reindeer move across
Miles and miles of golden moss,
Silently and very fast."

2:41 PM

@CopperKettle A heaven on earth!

Q: placement and displacement of the adverbs such as "first"

An interesting question

0

First off, I have no idea and haven't got any context as to the following problem. I am wondering what is the difference semantically between the followings? For instance: First I do something, then... I do something first, then... Any comment would be appreciated

Indeed.

;-)

2:56 PM

@DamkerngT. Yes, a beautiful poem, especially the two last stanzas..

That day I was trying Hopkins God's Grandeur

Not my cup of tea I guess :-)

@Man_From_India Try some simpler stuff, like "Glory be to God for dappled things"

Some of his poems are prohibitively hard to read

ahh then I should try that

There's a subjunctive in the first line (0:

(since we're in a grammar chat)

:-) true

3:01 PM

Pied Beauty

His most breathtaking poem is The Windhover

Q: "She noticed the change of (in?) her son" - choosing the right preposition

What do you think about this?

1

Am I right to say such like this: She noticed the change of her son. Is it different from the sentence: she noticed the change in her son?

prepositions

"Change of her son"... something fishy in it. I would expect "Change of her son's" (some change that her son implemented)

I wanted to answer, but I am highly unsure how to read this of

I interpret it this way

change of her son sound something like this. Say there are two person named A and B, both are of her son's age. "A" is her son. If you say change of her son, it might mean now "B" is her son :-) (It might not be the exact idea, but I guess you got it) Change in her son is something like that. Her son was angry, and now he calmed down. That is change in her son. — Man_From_India 15 mins ago

Yes, I've read it, but I'm not sure that we can describe the fact or replacement of a son as "change of her son". I'd wait for @snailboat to state her opinion.

"change" is also "small amount of money" and "a change of clothes"

yes that is also possible

3:07 PM

but they probably would work only with the possessive "s" after "son"

@Man_From_India Nice. That reminds me of Changeling. (Angelina Jolie was in it.)

I need an opinion about my comment, if i see it is wrong, I should delete it

@DamkerngT. A good movie!

Yeah!

ha ha...i don't know..I have to see it then :-)

3:08 PM

"change of her son" brings up only 7 results in Google Books

4:36 PM

"..And almost everyone when age,
Disease, or sorrows strike him,
Inclines to think there is a God,
Or something very like Him."

(from "There is no God")

Interesting that it's not ages.

@DamkerngT. It's a noun age, an "old age"

So, "And a boy when man" is okay, too, I guess.

When someone is stricken by age, he inclines to think there is a God.

Oh, maybe it's "when age, disease, or sorrows strike".

Hmm...

4:42 PM

@DamkerngT. a boy when man?

That needs a little bending for me.

"when age, disease, or sorrows strike him" seems like a good choice, but "age" strikes? Hmm...

[almost everyone] inclines [to think there is a God] when disease, age, or sorrows strike him

seems perfect to me

Day after day alone in a room of the house of a daughter-in-law stricken with age and gray.

bartleby.com/84/204.html

nods

Apparently, in English, age can strike us.

Oh, the same poet wrote a poem which Churchill quotes in his "World War Two"

And not by eastern windows only,
When daylight comes, comes in the light,
In front the sun climbs slow, how slowly,
But westward, look, the land is bright.

this poem

But I don't understand it offhand. It's cryptic.

Literally, it's straightforward, I think.

Maybe it's other verses you referred to.

4:52 PM

I need to re-read a poem sometimes to understand.

I've just stumbled upon it. In the audiobook I did not understand it at all.

Oh, it's about a battle. "The main" is the main force.

Must be during a World War.

No, the author died in 1861.

When was the WW One?

WWI - from 1914 to 1918 or 1919

Ahh... That was long before WWI!

4:56 PM

The ending is always hard to remember because fighting in Russia continued until 1922.

Oh, this makes me wonder what that fliers means, then.

fliers - the retreating enemy soldiers

Ahh

I also stumbled upon it, it took some minutes to sink in (0:

@CopperKettle I still can't find it in dictionaries, though.

4:57 PM

@DamkerngT. because it's a poetic metaphor

Could be.

Your comrades chase even now the fliers

- I doubt they chase some birds or butterflies (0:

It could be bills.

bills?

Yes, like handbiills.

At first, I thought it meant either pilots and planes.

4:59 PM

No, no. It would be some hippie battle, with soldiers chasing handbills (0:

Of a propaganda of the other side?

I don't know. :-)

(0:

I think fliers could be filled with false hopes.

The battle is drawn from the perspective of a soldier who thinks his side might be losing. He sees smoke and death around him.

But it could as well be those who flee, as you said.

5:01 PM

But beyond this smoke..

" It may be, in yon smoke concealed,
Your comrades chase e'en now the fliers,
And, but for you, possess the field."

That's what I wonder, too. What kind of smoke?

"yon" means "that" smoke. "yon" means "far away", it's a pronoun like "that"

only it indicates things farther than "that"

Still, what kind of smoke, I wonder.

What kind of smoke? In 1861 there was no smokeless powder.

Battlefields were covered in smoke.

It was hard to see.

That's why they used tight ranks, loud commands, drums, fifers and harsh drilling.

nods

Did they have tanks already?

5:05 PM

In 1861? Damkerng, are you joking?

I just wonder. :-)

Well, they had heavy cavalry, you could call them tanks. (0:

So, it was all done with swords, canons, and the cavalries.

And rifles.

Oh, rifles already?

Interesing!

5:07 PM

(0:

1861 is perhaps too remote for me to visualize a battle scene properly.

why? Haven't you seen the numerous movies about the Civil War? Like "Gone with the wind"?

I can't pinpoint the period.

Gettysburg (1993 film)

Gettysburg is a 1993 epic war film written and directed by Ronald F. Maxwell, adapted from the novel The Killer Angels by Michael Shaara, about the Battle of Gettysburg during the American Civil War. The film starred Tom Berenger, Jeff Daniels, and Martin Sheen with Randy Edelman composing the score. == Synopsis == The film follows the plot line of Killer Angels. The focus on the first day is on John Buford, who selects the battlefield. The focus on the second day is Joshua Chamberlain's defense of Little Round Top. The focus on the following evening is on preparation for and the executio...

This depicts the period superbly.

So, I could easily mix up something from the 1900s with something in the 1800s or the 1700s.

nods

5:11 PM

@DamkerngT. I remember a history lesson at school when a girl who sat by a table next to me was asked to reply, and in her reply she said that "Napoleon phoned Alexander I from Moscow in autumn 1812 and proposed peace terms"

Did we laugh!

Hah!

Perhaps it was Alexander Graham Bell. :-)

Alexander the First, actually (0:

Ah, so the father, not the son!

yep

A: What is the difference between “How do I know?” and “How would I know?”

5:25 PM

8

There's no strict rule distinguishing them. Below, I'll explain the differences between what each question suggests and the situations where it's most appropriate. How do I know? "How do I know?" usually casts doubt on something that previously was assumed to be true. For example, if someone yo...

A great answer!

Though I wish he would've discussed "How can/could I know ...?" a little.

Ben Kovits writes good answers. I read that he is an old Wikipedian.

(He already mentioned "How can I tell ...?")

Ahh

"There's been a fair amount of talk about the conversation between me and Larry Sanger that led to the creation of Wikipedia."

Oh, that's really cool!

you bet!

5:27 PM

Hi all!

Hi!

Welcome to the chat, @Hanaa!

How r u ?

we r fine

:)

5:31 PM

> "Is your opinion factual?"
http://ell.stackexchange.com/questions/49259/could-be-an-opinion-factual

Hmm... It seems paradoxical.

Hello @infinitesimal!

Hi pal

@infinitesimal Nice article, by the way.

How are you? @DamkerngT.

U did not ask me about the exam

Ah, sorry!

@infinitesimal Good. I'm ELLing.

5:32 PM

No problem :)

@Hanaa Oh, I thought you would tell us about your exam. How was it?

Tricky and difficult

Sounds like a good exam. :-)

Hi Guys

Unfortunatly it is noot

5:34 PM

how are you ?

Hi! I'm okay!

How are you?

Salam@Mohammad

Fine, thank you

@Hanaa Salam

@Hanaa where are you from ?

It was not good at all @DamkerngT.

@Hanaa Aww... Isn't an exam supposed to be challenging? :-)

5:37 PM

From Algeria. How about u brother@Mohammad
?

I am lebanees @Hanaa

It is more difficult than challenging

Ok guys I have a question ?

@Hanaa I see. :-)

Any way the problem is in the teacher nit the questions

5:38 PM

@Mohammad What's the question?

what is the difference btween "horde" and "crowd" ?

and where to use each one ?

Oh, hmm, horde evokes something a bit strong for me.

@Mohammad "horde" is more negative and often has a military context

(Though that's not necessarily true, I think.)

@Mohammad Horde derives probably from Mongolian, you can check out the etymology.

5:40 PM

It is the first time i see horde

Golden Horde

The Golden Horde (Mongolian: Алтан Орд, Altan Ordu, Зүчийн улс, Züchii-in Uls; Russian: Золотая Орда, tr. Zolotaya Orda; Tatar: Алтын Урда Altın Urda) was a Mongol and later Turkicized khanate, established in the 13th century, which comprised the northwestern sector of the Mongol Empire. The khanate is also known as the Kipchak Khanate or as the Ulus of Jochi. After the death of Batu Khan in 1255, the prosperity of his dynasty lasted for a full century, until 1359, though the intrigues of Nogai did instigate a partial civil war in the late 1290s. The Horde's military power peaked during the reign...

Without context, I usually imagine that the horde are angry!

Golden Horde ruled Russia for a couple of centuries

Ahh

Ahh

5:41 PM

So in Russian the word horde is strongly negative, a very derogatory word

@CopperKettle nice example

When the Germans advanced towards Moscow in 1941, they were called "a horde" for example

@CopperKettle thanks a lot, if you have more explanations go ahead

No, basically that's all. If you're interested in history, you can read up in Wikipedia, it has some very interesting stuff.

One of my dictionaries marks horde with "often depreciative"

Another close word that's marked with "deprec" too is mob (a crowd whom the speaker does not like).

5:45 PM

@CopperKettle thanks a lot

@Mohammad You're welcome!

@DamkerngT. could you explain more

It's as the dictionary says, horde and mob carry negative tones.

Aha

So we can say the French horde invaded Africa?

5:47 PM

Oh, this dictionary makes it even clearer:

Each word has many connotations that exhibit themselves in different contexts. You need to take some interesting book of fiction and read, that will increase your understanding (0:

Aha

Ok I think that I understood the meaning

> horde - a large crowd of people, especially people that you do not like or approve of, moving in an uncontrolled way

Thanks All

@Hanaa Yes, if you want to express your very negative stance towards France

5:49 PM

A ha

@Hanaa But "horde" is usually associated with something not very "orderly", like a big crowd of warriors. You'd better say the French imperialists subjugated Africa

Hords were orderly in their own fashion, but European empires in 19 century were way more orderly, with laws, rules, regulations.

How sth not very orderly? @CopperKettle

You usually don't have a "horde" that has laws, lawyers, rules, regulations, courts.

A horde is something less complex.

A ha like hords of cars ?

So then Germany was overruning Russia and we called them "hordes of Germans", it was very emotional: everyone knew that Germany was more like a complex system, a machine, than a horde. But emotionally it worked.

5:54 PM

I got it

I don't think that Genghis Khan's hordes were really disorganized.

@Hanaa Cars usually travel in lines, on the road, so they are hardly "hordes"

Horde is mainly for people, I think.

@DamkerngT. They were very organized. In fact, Russian post system derived from the one used by the Golden Horde. But still not as organized as France in 19 century.

Hords of France tried to invade Vietnam

5:55 PM

Ahh

I wil have dinner now bye

Bye, @Hanaa!

See you soon!