English Language Learners

Anonymous

1:58 AM

@fahdijbeli I can understand "I work 8x5", and it's clever of you to put it that way (because anyone would understand it right after talking about 24x7)

Anonymous

But if we hadn't been talking about 24x7 right beforehand, 8x5 might confuse people.

HostileFork

@DamkerngT. "bare" => "bear"

Anonymous

It's not a standard way of speaking. It comes across like wordplay in your earlier message.

Anonymous

So in general you can't use an arbitrary pair of numbers in that manner and expect to be understood.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. I understand what you're saying, but "very children focus" is probably not quite the right wording

Anonymous

2:01 AM

I've never seen Blues Clues. I think that Sesame Street is designed to be fun for parents, too, though :-)

Anonymous

I never saw Sesame Street until I'd grown up.

Anonymous

►

Anonymous

R.I.P. Henson

fahdijbeli

7:09 AM

morning

@snailboat ah sorry I wasn't here, I mean by 8x5= 8 hours for 5 days

and 24/7 mean 24 hours for week=7 days

Damkerng T.

7:30 AM

@HostileFork Thanks for the corrections. I'm sure that wasn't the first time I misspelled bear as bare. My English late at night could easily be like that!

@snailboat I think very children-focused is the word I wanted, though not sure if that's the best phrase for such shows.

@fahdijbeli Morning!

> ell.stackexchange.com/q/33359/3281

"Let me go" is a simple phrase, but could be obscure for learners.

I think in Frozen, they chose to translate "Let It Go" as "let it come out", because translating it literally would not quite work. (Saying "let it go" in Thai would sound like "let it go away" in English. Well, sort of.)

I don't know but I think the meaning of "Let It Go" as "let it come out" is actually secondary.

fahdijbeli

@DamkerngT. the second answer is not enough ?

I understood by the second answer :)

Damkerng T.

I meant the song; it wasn't related to that question.

fahdijbeli

ah ;)

Damkerng T.

The question is about "Let me go" and "Let go of me", and it already has a few good answers. :)

fahdijbeli

8:25 AM

yes

especialy the second haha

Anonymous

10:34 AM

@fahdijbeli Yes, as I explained, I understood just fine :-)

Anonymous

I was just letting you know for future reference that 24x7 is fine, but arbitrary pairs of numbers may not be understood

fahdijbeli

;)

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. People might say very child-focused

Anonymous

Think of "twenty four seven" as a fixed expression

fahdijbeli

yes

Anonymous

12:30 PM

Completive done in AAVE and Southern vernacular AmE is typically followed by a past participle. The A Handbook of Varieties of English says "This auxiliary done in a verb phrase may aspectually mark a completed action or event, and may also designate intensity." (p.235) and gives the following examples: "He done asked her to marry him" "I done told you to take your shoes off before walkin' on that carpet". — snailboat 7 mins ago

Anonymous

facepalm

Anonymous

"The A Handbook"

Anonymous

I should delete and re-leave the comments and fix my mistakes :-)

user116848

Hello!

Anonymous

But I'm too lazy.

Anonymous

12:32 PM

Hello

user116848

Where does the reputed users get the motivation to answer so many questions? There must be something that SE pay them, right?

user116848

Or they are just doing a 'good' man's' job?

Anonymous

No.

Anonymous

I like feeling like I'm helping people, though

Anonymous

I don't do a man's job.

user116848

12:33 PM

For free? That's a good thing I guess

user116848

I mean I answer questions sometimes because I think it helps me in learning and knowledge too

Anonymous

Yeah, participating helps us learn.

user116848

Definitely!

Anonymous

It's not like high-reputation users know everything, either.

Anonymous

Honestly, high reputation doesn't even indicate expertise, just a fair amount of participation.

user116848

12:36 PM

Especially for non native speakers like me, even going through all the recent questions everyday helps with new things a lot

Anonymous

Besides which, other people have helped me a lot with the languages I'm learning :-)

Anonymous

People need to help each other.

Anonymous

Things are better that way.

Damkerng T.

Hello!

user116848

Yes like language exchanges

user116848

12:38 PM

Hello!

Damkerng T.

I think it's about being good samaritans.

Anonymous

There are people who only help in exchange for help. That's okay.

Damkerng T.

Or noblesse oblige.

user116848

Oh, yes and that---->Good samaritans :-)

Anonymous

But that leaves some people out of the loop.

Damkerng T.

12:39 PM

That's where the points come in. :)

Anonymous

0

Q: Plural sign (s) return to which word in abbrivations?

Assume that TSFI stands for TOE Security Function Interface. And TOE (The first word) stands for Target Of Evaluation. I want to know in the TSFIs the plural s returns to which of words?

translation

Damkerng T.

I heard an interesting phrase on David Letterman's show: Sleep tight until your bed bugs bite!

user116848

@snailboat Very True. I agree, because I have tried other sites too, but there, only native English speakers who are willing to learn your language too, bother to help. Otherwise they say that it's not free.

Anonymous

Scary

user116848

So between US and here there is almost 'twelve hours' difference. Hehe

Damkerng T.

12:43 PM

I don't know "TOE Security Function Interface", but I guess the s should be at the Interface.

user116848

That's too much I guess :)

Anonymous

Yeah.

Anonymous

It's the head noun.

Anonymous

And the s is next to it.

user116848

So it's TOES?

Damkerng T.

12:45 PM

I hope it's not about missiles or something, or someone could say that we're running into a legal issue again. :)

The OP said TSFIs.

Oh, it's from Cygnacom.

I see. ISO/IEC 15408

Anonymous

As a general rule I think it applies to the final word, which would typically be the head noun

Anonymous

There are some exceptions with postmodification

Anonymous

Attorneys general is typically abbreviated to AGs, not AsG or the like :-)

Anonymous

So the question isn't necessarily as clear-cut as we'd like

Anonymous

To put it another way: attorney general is abbreviated to AG, which is then pluralized to AGs. This corresponds to the irregular plural attorneys general

Damkerng T.

12:50 PM

TSFIs should be expanded to either TOE Security Function Interfaces or Target of Evaluation Security Function Interfaces. It's almost always the case for a long noun phrase that the main noun (also known as the head word) is the last word in the phrase. — Damkerng T. 7 secs ago

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Relative clauses are an example of a productive postmodifier in noun phrase structure

Anonymous

I say "productive" because

Anonymous

"Attorneys general" is not an example of a productive rule. We can't produce new phrases with plurals like it (or can hardly do so)

Anonymous

But "Apples that I like" is an example of a productive rule

Damkerng T.

nods

Anonymous

12:52 PM

ATILs? :-)

Damkerng T.

AsTIL looks weird. :P

Anonymous

The alternative would be to consider it part of the abbreviation: ATIL

user116848

Now, you guys are talking difficult :p

Anonymous

"I'm going to go eat some ATIL." "ATIL?" "Apples That I Like!"

Anonymous

We can produce noun phrases that don't have the head at the end very easily using relative clauses.

user116848

12:54 PM

So who would understand you if you said ATIL? I wouldn't :-)

Damkerng T.

Oh, I don't know for sure how I should abbr. Requests for Change.

I bet it should be RFCs.

Anonymous

Ideally, don't

Anonymous

RFC is taken

Anonymous

But I'd say RFCs, yeah.

Anonymous

RFCs are Requests For Comments

Anonymous

12:55 PM

Here, the head noun takes a for-complement

Damkerng T.

Oh, I mixed up the terms once again. :)

Anonymous

Another example of a productive process giving us a head noun that is not linearly at the end of the phrase

Anonymous

So I think I have to object to "almost always"

Damkerng T.

That's fine with me. :)

Anonymous

However, the head noun is very commonly at the end.

user116848

12:57 PM

You guys are boring

Anonymous

And the head noun is typically what you would mark for number.

Damkerng T.

@Arrowfar Oh, no! :)

user116848

Just kidding

Damkerng T.

Maybe I should talk about David Letterman's show instead. :P

Anonymous

Yeah. Just kidding. Sure ;-)

user116848

12:59 PM

@DamkerngT. Nay it's okay. Sorry I disturbed you while asking

user116848

My apologies

Ice Boy

Oh ya, well if you got nothing good to say...

user116848

hi skull :-)

user116848

pal

Ice Boy

hi pal :-)

Anonymous

1:01 PM

@DamkerngT. I stole your example for a comment.

Anonymous

It is very common for the head noun to be the final word in a noun phrase, but "almost always" is too strong. Many nouns take complements as postmodifiers (RFCs = Requests for Comment), and there are a variety of other postmodifiers, for example relative clauses, which can follow the head noun. — snailboat 1 min ago

Damkerng T.

@Arrowfar Dontchaknow, like a character in Ghost Ship said, Navy boys take it up the a$$. -- Just kidding, too. -- Sorry for an inappropriate word. I was transcribing the movie, so it got stuck in my head a bit. :P

@snailboat Thank you very much!

Hi @IceBoy!

Anonymous

I know some gay marines. They would probably not object to your characterization, although it's erm, a bit out of the blue :-)

user116848

LOL. What does 'Navy boys take it up the a$$' mean??

Damkerng T.

@snailboat Eh? I think it's an idiom.

user116848

1:02 PM

Yes, Damk has many gay friends lol

Anonymous

Ehm. :-)

Damkerng T.

@Arrowfar I think it means, "don't take jokes".

Ice Boy

Hi @DamkerngT. et al pals

user116848

@DamkerngT. Don't take jokes (seriously) you mean?

user116848

Or just 'Don't take jokes'?

Damkerng T.

1:04 PM

Hmm... In the context, it made me think that the person who was referred to didn't take jokes.

Because she was a bit of a serious person.

user116848

It would be fun if Cerbs were here lol

Damkerng T.

I could be wrong about this, though.

Anonymous

Et al pals! Those who share in the joy of abbreviating citations. Randolph Quirk, Sidney Greenbaum, Geoffrey Leech, and Jan Svartvik? Nah, just leave it to the Et Al Pals! We say Quirk et al!

Damkerng T.

@snailboat I prefer being one of your et al.

:D

Anonymous

Et Al Pals!

user116848

1:06 PM

What's et al pals?

Damkerng T.

I think this is ad hoc. :)

user116848

Now you guys are talking difficult again :-)

Damkerng T.

:P

Anonymous

Ice Boy just invented them.

user116848

just?

user116848

1:08 PM

May be I should refrain from questioning everything. It looks annoying, right guys?

Anonymous

Oops, I left out an 's'! It should say Requests for Comments with an 's' at the end. But that would make my point less clear.

Damkerng T.

Nope.

Anonymous

And now it's too late to edit.

Anonymous

wrings hands

Damkerng T.

@Arrowfar Um... I assumed that you knew this just.

Anonymous

1:09 PM

Every comment I leave is doomed to contain errors.

Anonymous

Just = "a moment ago"

Anonymous

"I just got home" = "I got home a moment ago"

user116848

@DamkerngT. Yes I know. But I thought I should still ask hehe

Damkerng T.

Ah, I see. :)

user116848

But I was not messing

user116848

1:10 PM

:p

Damkerng T.

Definitely not, imo.

user116848

Messing and messing around is same, right? I mean they mean the same thing?

Anonymous

I suppose messing in that sense is some sort of slang. It's not part of my dialect, but I understand it okay.

Damkerng T.

I don't know. To me, they both mean pretty much the same, well, with one with around and the other without.

user116848

It's like saying: 'I am just having fun with you'

Anonymous

1:13 PM

Yeah, I understood it that way. I'd always add around, myself

Anonymous

Or messing with you or whatever you intend

Anonymous

corpus2.byu.edu/glowbe/?c=glowbe&q=32983716

user116848

Not to mention the cussing version :-)

Damkerng T.

However, messing around and fooling around could mean something else in another specific context.

Anonymous

Yeah, I had that problem in grade school, as my fellow students twisted my words

Anonymous

1:15 PM

And I quickly realized that every phrase with the more innocent meaning could also take on the something-else meaning

user116848

@DamkerngT. But 'fooling around' is almost always in the 'make out' sense imo

Damkerng T.

Hmm... I think it can still have its literal meaning.

Anonymous

It's not really a matter of opinion

user116848

then?

user116848

Always?

Damkerng T.

1:16 PM

Oh, macmillandictionary.com/dictionary/american/fool-around

They cover both senses, rather clearly.

Anonymous

If you make an assertion about what something means, you can often tell if it's right or wrong

Anonymous

By checking evidence.

Anonymous

It's not always clear-cut, of course.

Anonymous

But in this case it's a hypothesis, not an opinion

Anonymous

nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/physics/laureates/1965/…

Anonymous

1:18 PM

Search for 'fooling around'

Damkerng T.

I think it's difficult to read "Mark admits he used to fool around in class." with the other meaning.

Anonymous

Quite an admission!

Damkerng T.

Hmm... Reading it again, I think I can read it both ways! Argh!

Anonymous

Hah

Anonymous

But one reading is likelier than the other :-)

user116848

1:20 PM

Yes but here in these examples the good meaning makes sense

user116848

But it's always apparent from the context.

Damkerng T.

I think almost every class would have a Mark. :)

I met a lot of Marks. They usually make the class fun.

Anonymous

Yeah, context usually makes it clear.

Anonymous

There can be ambiguity, of course.

Anonymous

People like to find ambiguity and play with it. Ambiguity is a toy.

Anonymous

1:23 PM

Nov 26 '13 at 4:05, by snailboat

I'm reminded of the joke: "Linguists love ambiguity more than most people."

user116848

Yes they do. And they love irony, which I never get most of the times

Damkerng T.

I concur!

user116848

I find it very tough to understand irony in a sentence

Anonymous

I never use irony.

user116848

Except when there are clear signs that the person is being ironic

user116848

1:26 PM

Yes I know. Guys in the ELU chat use irony every so often

Anonymous

They shouldn't do that.

user116848

I know it's like saying 'the opposite of what we mean' but still it's difficult to comprehend sometimes

user116848

And then there is 'sarcasm'

user116848

Which is like irony in a sense

Anonymous

Oh, no! Not sarcasm!

user116848

1:29 PM

But being sarcastic is fun sometimes

user116848

What, you hate 'sarcasm'?

Damkerng T.

A mild version of it could be fun. For example, Reindeers are better than people...

user116848

Yes, true

user116848

Oh, I think geeks seldom use irony or sarcasm

Damkerng T.

Oh, I couldn't find that scene on YouTube, but I got OST: youtube.com/watch?v=caYlllBWLaw

Anonymous

1:32 PM

That's right. Geeks never use irony or sarcasm.

user116848

But politicians type folks use it (irony and sarcasm)

user116848

@snailboat Starred it!

user116848

:-)

user116848

Good ol' geeks LOL

Anonymous

The apostrophe goes where something is left out, usually: ol'

user116848

1:35 PM

Oh, I see. Thanks for pointing!

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Now that I'm used to the Japanese version, I think I actually like it better :-) I wonder if it's a matter of familiarity breeding fondness

Damkerng T.

Hah! Umm... I haven't heard the Japanese version of this one.

user116848

@DamkerngT. So Damk you can speak three languages then (English, Thai and Japanese) :-)

Anonymous

It's called とびら開けて

user116848

I can speak only two (Urdu and English)

user116848

1:38 PM

But I can read Arabic perfectly too

Damkerng T.

I can't really speak Japanese. :)

user116848

But don't understand a work of it

Damkerng T.

Though I hope I will be able to soon.

user116848

@DamkerngT. I see

user116848

Damk can you speak any regional Thai languages too?

user116848

1:40 PM

Here there are many regional languages too, but most people don't know them like me

Damkerng T.

Thai dialects aren't that different from the others.

user116848

Oh, I see

Damkerng T.

One of our dialects is very close to Laotian. And I can understand Laotian (both written and spoken) effortlessly.

But that's just me. I lived in the south of Thailand until I was 5, and Wikipedia says Southern Thai is another language. :)

So, Southern Thai is my first language, Standard Thai is my second, according to them.

Which is rather strange for me. :)

user116848

But I don't get that in USA except English there is no other other language of theirs (I mean provincial languages). Their dialect differ only based on accent and some words (like Texas people have an accent). May be snailboat can answer this

Damkerng T.

I think people from different places in the US use different words to refer to the same thing.

It's not very clear-cut, though.

I think soda is a common example.

user116848

1:45 PM

Yes, soda and soft-drinks

Damkerng T.

And, pop.

Anonymous

@Arrowfar I don't know what you mean.

user116848

Or coke or pepsi

user116848

@snailboat I meant in USA are there aren't other national languages like most countries

Damkerng T.

huffingtonpost.com/2012/11/12/soda-vs-pop_n_2103764.html

Anonymous

1:46 PM

There aren't any national languages in the US.

Anonymous

Languages of the United States

Many languages are used, or historically have been used in the United States. The most commonly used language is English. There are also many languages indigenous to North America or to U.S. states or holdings in the Pacific region. Languages brought to the country by colonists or immigrants from Europe, Asia, or other parts of the world make up a large portion of the languages currently used; several languages, including creoles and sign languages, have also developed in the United States. Approximately 337 languages are spoken or signed by the population, of which 176 are indigenous to the area...

user116848

Yes English is for all. Which is a good thing I know. But I was just making an observation

Damkerng T.

Main languages: English 80%, Spanish 12.4%, other Indo-European 3.7%, Asian and Pacific island languages 3%, other languages 0.9% (2009 survey by the Census Bureau)

80% is less than I expected.

(I guessed 90%)

user116848

Like in China there is Mandarin and Cantonese. That's what I meant

user116848

Like in Spain there is Spanish and Catalan, for example

Damkerng T.

1:50 PM

China is different, I believe.

user116848

But Catalan is in minority I reckon

Anonymous

What makes Catalan in Spain different in your reckoning from Spanish in the US?

Anonymous

You haven't made it clear what attribute you're trying to single out

user116848

In the sense that it is Spain originating not US origin

Anonymous

Oh, so you think that the US has no indigenous languages?

user116848

1:53 PM

Yes

Anonymous

That is not the case

user116848

But don't mind that lol

Anonymous

→ en.wikipedia.org/wiki/…

Damkerng T.

Yawaho (or something sounds like that) came to mind.

Oh, it's Navajo.

Anonymous

Navajo is an important language

Damkerng T.

1:56 PM

I don't know much about it except that it was in a movie, and it's difficult to learn.

(Or so they say)

Anonymous

Navajo language

Navajo or Navaho (/ˈnɑːvəhoʊ/; Navajo: Diné bizaad IPA: [di˩ne˥bi˩zaː˩d] or Naabeehó bizaad) is a language of the Athabaskan branch of the Na-Dené family, by which it is related to languages spoken across the western areas of North America. Navajo is spoken primarily in the Southwestern United States, especially in the Navajo Nation political area. It is one of the most widely spoken Native American languages and is the most widely spoken north of the U.S.–Mexico border, with almost 170,000 Americans speaking Navajo at home as of 2011. The language has struggled to keep a healthy speaker base,...

Anonymous

@snailboat Do you have a pdf copy of that book? — Man_From_India 9 mins ago

Anonymous

@Man_From_India I suggest checking Google Books or a library. It's too expensive to reasonably suggest getting your own copy. — snailboat 1 min ago

Damkerng T.

Their keyboard is quite curious!

Anonymous

@snailboat yea :) — Man_From_India 1 min ago

Anonymous

2:04 PM

I guess they'd already come to that conclusion and wanted me to upload it for them?

Anonymous

amazon.com/Handbook-Varieties-English-Multi-Media-Reference/dp/…

Damkerng T.

It sounds pretty much so. :)

Oh, $790.39!

Anonymous

Just a bit excessive.

user116848

That much for a book!?

Damkerng T.

Almost 4 CGELs!

user116848

2:07 PM

So try the pirate sites :-)

Anonymous

Good luck with that!

Damkerng T.

I can't recall since when CGEL became a unit of expensive books for me. :)

user116848

@snailboat Do you have a hard copy of that book?

Anonymous

I do not.

user116848

Then on PC?

Anonymous

2:08 PM

I don't have an electronic copy of my own either.

user116848

I am not asking you to give it to me LOL. Just wanted to ask.

Anonymous

I have lots of books. Sadly, there are even more books I don't have. :-(

user116848

So you have only heard about the book?

user116848

@DamkerngT. Damk do you have CGEL in hard copy or only on PC?

user116848

I have it on PC

Damkerng T.

2:10 PM

No. I have PEU on my iPad.

user116848

I have CGEL Hooray!

Damkerng T.

I have some more grammar books, printed.

Oh, good for you. :)

> Every band has a shelf life; BB had finally expired. We always felt excluded in many ways never reaching.......

> BB finally expired. We had always felt excluded..

> ell.stackexchange.com/questions/33442/why-is-past-perfect-used

I think both versions are acceptable. It's more about context and focus.

Damkerng T.

2:34 PM

Sometimes I think more definitions for a word in dictionaries could create more problems than solving the obvious one.

(I was reading ell.stackexchange.com/questions/33224/…)

According to, thefreedictionary.com/quite, Collins English Dictionary gave 6 definitions for the word quite, some marked as "not used in a negative".

Which could be true, because if I tried to negate those example sentences that they marked "not used in a negative", it would fall into another definition they gave.

Anonymous

According to collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/quite, Collins English Dictionary does just that :-)

Damkerng T.

It reminds me of meatie and some other users of ELL, who were struggling so much trying to understand words in terms of these different definitions.

I'd say it's better to lump those definitions up as one, or a few.

Or maybe, we should have a canon post, as StoneyB once suggested, about how to use dictionaries properly.

Anonymous

How would you lump them together?

Damkerng T.

Hmm... I'm not sure. But intuitively, I usually understand as with just a couple of senses.

I think I probably understand quite in maybe two main senses.

(rather) completely or very

Anonymous

Those are two different senses :-)

Anonymous

2:41 PM

You can group them together, sure.

Damkerng T.

But if we have 6 definitions, the users (of such a dictionary) would naturally try to understand the word as 6 senses.

Anonymous

The divisions in Collins seem sensible to me.

Anonymous

Here's Macmillan: macmillandictionary.com/dictionary/american/quite

Damkerng T.

This one has five!

Anonymous

"fairly but not very" "very" "completely"

Damkerng T.

2:45 PM

I think it's the best to understand quite in only one sense, the sense of quite, if we can. :)

Anonymous

I think that's more akin to not really consciously thinking about the differences

Anonymous

Which is fine.

Anonymous

But the meaning does vary a fair bit.

Damkerng T.

I can't, I think I don't disagree to that.

Anonymous

Certainly I doubt most native speakers sit around categorizing the uses of quite :-)

Damkerng T.

2:47 PM

I think this is one main problem of language acquisition.

LOL

Anonymous

Although clearly some do.

Damkerng T.

It reminds me of the battle of CISC and RISC.

I think we could really go either way, but somehow RISC won.

(Around that time, I did think that CISC was a better idea.)

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