English Language Learners

It's a comparison; what seems really interesting to me now is why it is simply the past-tense "she thought", instead of "she had been thinking" -- for it was in her very recent past that she thought that I might not show up. She's not thinking that thought right now.

I think that original sentence to be fine as is. I'm now just trying to figure out what all is going on, syntactically. :)

Damkerng T.

3:59 AM

I think as if works a little differently.

Damkerng T.

4:15 AM

> This is a story of an abuse of a husband.

Who was abused? The husband or the wife?

Bob the zealot

hi

im back

GATA

5:41 AM

Hi :) could someone please help me to say this correctly? "I use this app in combination with\along with other app"

First app is a TTS app and the second one is an app to use that TTS service. The first is the voice and second is an app to exploit that voice to read words and texts.

Damkerng T.

6:01 AM

I think I prefer "in combination with". "Together with" also works, imo, but the dependency between the two apps seems to be less emphasized. "Along with" might work, but the sense of the combo is even less emphasized to me.

Anonymous

6:50 AM

@DamkerngT. Yep! :-)

Anonymous

@F.E. Oh, that's a nice sentence :-)

GATA

@DamkerngT. Thank you :) You are right after reading your answer and googling a bit I found the "along with" less aporopriate . Thank you again.

"800 rep" looks nice. I like round numbers :D

Anonymous

Me too!

GATA

For first time I don't like to be up-voted for a while :D (This is my best wording for now :)

or Down-voted :/

Anonymous

7:16 AM

Oh no, down-voted!

GATA

Tonight I am going to start writing short stories again. Can I post it here to check it's grammar? I promise it wont exceed 6-7 lines per day. :D

Anonymous

Sure, as long as you're not flooding the chat there's no harm. (But I can't guarantee anyone in particular will respond to any particular lines!)

Anonymous

@GATA "check its grammar"

Anonymous

Possessive its has no apostrophe. It's is short for either it is or it has

Anonymous

(Of course, this is spelling rather than grammar. :-)

Damkerng T.

7:28 AM

This sounds like fun. :) Hello @GATA, @snailboat!

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Hello!

GATA

Hi Damkerng :) Thanks snailboat :D

Anonymous

@Bobthezealot Full disclosure: I am a moderator on Japanese.SE :-)

Damkerng T.

Hmm... Community is very diligent. She keeps bumping up old questions every once in a while. :)

I guess she is a bot. :)

GATA

@snowdenboat it didn't work :(

Anonymous

7:34 AM

@DamkerngT. Community does many things. One is bumping questions, at most once per hour, that have no answers scored 1 or higher

Damkerng T.

^An interesting name!

Anonymous

@GATA Wh-what didn't work? :-)

GATA

I tried to be funny, Snowdenboat :D but it didnt work. I am not good at it.

Dont worry about Story :D It would hardly exceed 5 line.

I have used to hear or see "disclosure" along with "snowden".

Anonymous

Full disclosure is a phrase

GATA

noun phrase?

Anonymous

7:44 AM

Yes

GATA

I used to read my brother's grammar books but they didn't really help me. They were beyond my patience. Then I started reading news and stories and excluding new words and interesting patterns form them. and just after that I started improving.

Anonymous

Yay

Anonymous

I do language learning in context

Anonymous

How long have you been learning English?

Anonymous

A long time?

GATA

7:53 AM

10 years :D

GATA

8:05 AM

Actually It's two years(unsteady) I left my English courses ten years ago and except two or three other failed attempts I didn't do anything about it until two years ago.

I had no one to practice with(except my brother who was never available).

Damkerng T.

ELL can help a little, I think. :)

GATA

Of course :) chatting with you guys and also communicating with others in websites' commenting section has helped me a lot. I don't say I am perfect now (Not at all :) but I have improved a lot.

This is exactly why I wasn't ambitious about it in the past. I wasn't benefiting from it because I didn't use it.

WOW, For first time chat room is filled with my avatar. Sorry for that. I stop here :)

Anonymous

8:35 AM

@GATA On my screen, you've only managed to fill the bottom part :-)

Anonymous

Anyway, don't apologize. You'll make me look bad ;-) I fill up the entire chat all the time!

GATA

@snailboat Thanks, I wont :D

jimsug

10:50 AM

@DamkerngT. A bit of a late reply, but yes, I used Praat for that waveform/spectrogram.

And also, yes, Praat is pretty good for exporting to image; it's not as intuitive, but it's reasonably simple to handle and once you learn it, it's pretty darn good.

It's also got a powerful scripting language for fieldwork.

Damkerng T.

11:10 AM

@jimsug Thanks for the info. Now I know whom I should ask when I get stuck in Praat. :)

Damkerng T.

11:57 AM

> orangutan, borrowed from Bahasa Melayu, would be pluralised as orang-orang hutan, as reduplication is a productive process in that language. In English, however, the pluralisation is simply orangutans, honoring English processes.

@jimsug Interesting! I always thought it is called Bahasa Malaysia. (Malayu is something outdated to me.)

> In Singapore and Brunei it is called Bahasa Melayu (Malay language); in Malaysia, Bahasa Malaysia (Malaysian language); and in Indonesia, Bahasa Indonesia (Indonesian language) and is designated the Bahasa Persatuan/Pemersatu ("unifying language/lingua franca").
--From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malay_language

So it's called differently in different places.

Damkerng T.

12:57 PM

I've got the sentence in my exam without any hints,it was just written like this:Do you remember-------the Church of the Holy Sepulcher(I had to fill in the blank).I used(visiting) although I was very afraid of using it — user55891 22 mins ago

> Do you remember _____ the Church of the Holy Sepulcher?

I'd call something like this an unrealistic sentence.

(When the given choices are only: visiting and to visit.)

Ice Girl

1:11 PM

Hi all

Anonymous

Hello

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Well, visiting is clearly the right answer if those are the choices.

Anonymous

1:30 PM

@DamkerngT. A user just posted a question with some pictures of kanji on the Japanese.SE. When I did a reverse Google image search on one of them, I was led to Thai websites, interestingly enough

Anonymous

Not that the images are Thai.

jimsug

3:51 PM

@DamkerngT. I'll admit that my instinct was just to call it Malay, but seems like it's the same language with different names.

jimsug

4:42 PM

Hey @F.E.

F.E.

@jimsug Hello?

jimsug

0

Q: "Which" vs "That" in complex sentences

I've been told that in complex sentences one must use "that" rather than "which" to refer the whole previous subsentence or a word in it, that is not right near to the preposition. For example I couldn't use "which" in the sentence above: one must use "that" to refer a word in an subsentence...

@F.E. Just curious, do you have an opinion on this question?

Actually, it's the answer I'm wondering about.

ell.stackexchange.com/a/26360/1407

F.E.

@jimsug I'll go look. :)

F.E.

5:03 PM

Well, first of all, the OP's first sentence is ungrammatical. Besides missing a "to" ("to refer to"), it has an extra comma in it that needs to be deleted. The comma breaks up info that is supposed to be integrated into the subordinate content clause. (Also, that last phrase in her sentence (after the erroneous comma) needs to be reworded.)

Er, unfortunately, Grammar Girl isn't a vetted grammar source. It seems to me that she mostly reiterates what she remembers being told in secondary school by her English teachers. She usually repeats many of the bogus grammar "rules" taught by pedants who think that English uses a Latin-based grammar. And that article on "Which versus That" is an old one, done in 2008--its her older articles that are really bad. One of the commentators actually makes some good points.

Recently "G.G."s articles were ported to a new site, and all the old comments were stripped off. That was unfortunate, imo, because the good info was in the comments where the commentators were correcting the errors that she made. She had a lot of articles on the "which vs that" topic, and had made numerous errors in all of them. What was hilarious was that she even violated her own "rules" in her own text--often using "which" where it shouldn't be used (according to her rules).

jimsug

Yeah, pretty much my thoughts, but I thought it would be classless to attack it in comments :P I've been thinking of another answer, so I'll probably put that up.

F.E.

As to the "Which vs That": Both "which" and "that" can be used for integrated/restrictive clauses. But only "which" can be used for supplementary/non-restrictive clauses (nowadays, that is--there was a recent time when "that" non-restrictive clauses were commonly acceptable; but nowadays, they show up rarely)--though some grammatical examples of "that" in supplementary clauses do show up in current times.

There are are constraints on "which" and on "that", but that'll take a post with formatting to describe. There are some over in EL&U, for I've run across a few.

The OP's 2nd example could actually use "is"--if she's thinking of a dish (like "bacon and eggs"). E.g. "I love fish and vegetables, which is the most common ~~food~~ dish in Japan".

Anonymous

5:20 PM

That that doesn't kill you…

jimsug

Mhm.

F.E.

@snailboat Yes, that's one of the exceptions/constraints. :)

jimsug

First result in a Google search for ambiguity in "which vs that":

lel.ed.ac.uk/~gpullum/SIEG/relwhich.html

Although, the more I think about it, the more that that doesn't kill you seems okay, especially in speech.

F.E.

Also, notice that in the OP's 2nd example (which I've modified) the comma could be deleted--probably ought to be deleted--for the speaker probably wanted that info integrated into the main clause. E.g. "I love fish and vegetables which is the most common food dish in Japan".

Anonymous

Yeah, sometimes it's easy to fool your own judgments when you repeat stuff or stare at it hard enough :-)

Anonymous

5:22 PM

Luckily, we have corpus evidence!

jimsug

Yes and no... corpus evidence is good evidence that things are grammatical/preferred, but not such good for showing that things are ungrammatical.

F.E.

@jimsug Yes, there's good info in those articles. :)

Anonymous

Still, you've got to start with evidence if you want to ask the right questions.

jimsug

Yep, this is true.

Anonymous

Everyone's grammar is different when you get to the fuzzy bits around the edges.

jimsug

5:26 PM

0

Q: Debris or Remains

Please suggest the most proper word to describe the picture below. Can I use "debris" to describe it? Would you also please tell me if "debris" and "remains" are completely interchangeable?

word-choice

F.E.

I'd like to suggest that you use a different example than "I'm interested in attending one of the Ivy League schools that are among the highest-rated schools in the world" -- for aren't' all the Ivy League schools among the highest-rated? And so, that makes it difficult for me to focus on the "which vs that" issue.

Anonymous

Yeah, that sentence is odd.

Anonymous

> I'm interested in attending one of the Ivy League schools, which are among the highest-rated schools in the world.

F.E.

When you read novels, and write novels, you'll find many "which" being used for integrated (restricted) relative clauses. From personal practice, there are too many "that"s being used for other purposes, and just for rhetoric purposes, I have to use "which".

jimsug

Also, I think the comma adds something...

Anonymous

5:30 PM

Today I discovered RSyntaxTree, a Ruby port of PHPSyntaxTree with a couple new features. Happily, it works with Japanese writing :-)

Anonymous

It looks a little nicer than mshang.ca/syntree

jimsug

Oh yeah, I've used RSyntaxTree. I'm yet to find something that does right-branching networks.

Something like this

F.E.

I think I found an EL&U post that discusses some of the constraints and restrictions on the "which vs that" issue: english.stackexchange.com/a/52359/57102 -- A lot of that info is seldom mentioned on related threads.

jimsug

0

Q: why obvious things are not corrected on this site

When a learner asks a particular questions on this site,more often than not the body of the question itself is not constructed properly or has many other errors. More often than not,a particular question is answered, but no point is made about the "body" of the question as a whole. This gives a l...

sentence-construction

Needs to be moved to meta.

Anonymous

Flag!

Anonymous

5:44 PM

Or something.

Anonymous

I don't know. I'm not loading the page. :-)

Anonymous

Too much ELL means I don't get things done.

jimsug

Already marked for closure... does closing it as "belongs on another site" migrate it?

Anonymous

Yeah, I think if a majority of closers pick that.

F.E.

There's a new question on ELU that's on this topic of "which vs that": english.stackexchange.com/questions/177828/…

Anonymous

5:47 PM

Sigh. Asking about several things at once, at that

Anonymous

Probably someone would need to mention something about whom there :-)

F.E.

And getting so-so answers . . .

@snailboat I was thinking about it, but hopefully someone else will do that (someone else that is younger than me). :)

Tiger long in tooth.

jimsug

Eh, I've tended to stay away from ELU - unfortunately, the ~~pedantry~~ enthusiasm there can be overbearing, and I've been voted down for trying to cater to regional variations, I think. There seems to be one "right" way to say things, for some people... shrugs, doesn't feel as friendly as ELL.

Anonymous

I've participated in ELU a little bit.

F.E.

10:13 PM

Okay, I see your avatar.

@Farooq Are you coming over to ELL chat?

user116848

Yes in a bit

F.E.

Okay, you ready?

user116848

Put your cursor over the right side of the message, when you want to reply to it, and click. That will notify the person you are trying to talk to.

user116848

I don't get this\

user116848

How do reply to one specific person when there are many??

F.E.

10:19 PM

@Farooq I just replied to your last message. Notice how you got notified?

See my message? . . . Put your cursor over the right-hand side of my message. You will see some options show up. One is a broken arrow. Read the prompt, and click on it.

Damkerng T.

Hello, everyone!

F.E.

@DamkerngT. Hi back! :)

user116848

Yes I know how I get notified. But how do I notify any specific person? Sorry for being so stupid. I am new to chatting here.

Damkerng T.

@Farooq You can write a message with @username in the message.

user116848

Yes sorry I just saw it now (the right bent arrow). Cool

Damkerng T.

10:23 PM

Yay!

F.E.

Now, let's assume the character had said: "Yeah, I still wish I could have done more, though."

user116848

So to openly discuss any grammar query of English this is the best place 'chat' wise. Or is English language and usage chatting better

F.E.

EL&U chat tend to chat about a whole bunch of non-grammar stuff, imo.

Damkerng T.

We can do that here, too. :)

user116848

Yes I wrote to @medica but she is bent on using "wished" here

F.E.

10:26 PM

@Farooq I think you might have mis-understood her. Anyway, . . . Let's now look at that example I just posed.

user116848

So I guess since she is experienced too there must be two correct choices of "wish" and "wished"

user116848

@F.E. Yes I just saw your example

F.E.

Okay. First, you need to understand how "wish" works. "Wish" requires its content clause to have a preterite verb for modal remoteness.

For example, "Yeah, I still wish that I was rich."

That means that I am currently wishing, and the wishing is about me being right now rich.

Damkerng T.

Ahh... I saw the question. (Sorry @F.E., to interrupt. :)

1

A: I still wished I could have done more

I take it the character is speaking of something which happened in the past and ended in the past. Simplifying without changing the essential meaning: I wished I had done more... This is the past perfect. It describes a completed action before something in the past. I don't know about the s...

F.E.

But I'm not rich right now. That is why I am wishing. And so, what I am wishing for is modally remote, or is counter-factual.

user116848

10:31 PM

@F.E. Yes sorry like I said on the EL&U site your "wish" sentence is very simple. That is we are "imagining" it and we tend to use "simple past".

F.E.

To show that modal remoteness, or counter-factuality, that uses up one past-tense verb.

user116848

So can you give examples of "could have here"??

F.E.

@Farooq Right. That shows the requirement for one past-tense verb. But the 2nd past-tense verb is need to show that the situation was in the past.

user116848

Yes THAT second past I don't get it. That's why I came here for chatting.

user116848

To get immediate responses from you experienced guys:)

F.E.

10:33 PM

@Farooq The earlier example I gave was for a present time wish. I'll now tweak it for a past time wish--which is a wish about something that had happened in the past: "Yeah, I still wish that I had been rich when I was in college ten years ago."

Damkerng T.

Perhaps, talking about backshifting could help a bit.

F.E.

That example had two past-tense: "had", and the perfect construction "have/has/had been".

One past-tense verb is used up for modal remoteness: e.g. "had" preterite.

The second past-tense--the perfect--is used to place the situation in the past.

user116848

okay...

F.E.

Usually, a simple past-tense is enough, e.g. "I hope he was rich when he was in college (ten years ago)."

Also, "I hope he was rich."

The situation is one that is in the past. I am hoping now that he was rich in the past.

user116848

@F.E. So is this correct too: "I wish I had had done more"? Or is one 'had' enough here?

F.E.

10:38 PM

@Farooq No, that is ungrammatical.

user116848

So unlike 'wish' with 'hope' it isn't necessary to use 'past' as in "I hope he was rich when he was in college (ten years ago)."

F.E.

But, when "wish" is used, then, you need another past-tense verb to express that modal remoteness that is involved in doing that "wishing."

user116848

But not in 'hope' right?

F.E.

And so, e.g. "I wish he had been rich".

Damkerng T.

Hope expresses the hope straightforwardly, like think that expresses the thought straightforwardly. Wish is a bit different. Wish expresses something "unreal".

F.E.

10:41 PM

"I wish he had been rich" -- is talking about the past time.

If I wish he is right now rich, but I know he is poor, then I'd say: "I wish he was rich".

Damkerng T.

> I think he was rich.
I hope he was rich.
I wish he had been rich.

user116848

thanks to you both for taking such time to help others in learning.

F.E.

"I wish he was rich, for then he could buy me dinner and a car."

I wish @Farooq was rich, for then he could buy us a car each!

Damkerng T.

lol

F.E.

But that last sentence is assuming that @Farooq is NOT rich right now.

user116848

10:42 PM

But I am not. Definitely not rich:)

F.E.

Suppose I knew @Farooq when he and I were in high school, and I regret that back then we didn't have a car. I could then say right now: "I wish Farrooq had been rich when we were in school, for then we could've met girls!"

Notice the two past-tenses in "we could've met girls!"

user116848

Yes

F.E.

There's "could", which is the past-tense of "can".

And there's the perfect construction: "have met".

The "could have met" provides two past-tenses: one for modal remoteness, the other for the past-time situation of use back then in high school.

user116848

But in your sentence "I wish Farrooq had been rich when we were in school, for then we could've met girls!" why not use "...when we had been in school..."

user116848

Why 'were' here not 'had been'?

F.E.

10:47 PM

@Farooq You can! :)

That's called "backshift" preterite. @DamkerngT.

user116848

I thought so too:)

F.E.

Usually, a backshift preterite is optional.

Damkerng T.

I prefer when we were in school.

user116848

But that gets the sentence look very complex right?

F.E.

Sometimes a backshift preterite is strongly preferred. Sometimes it is required, sometimes it is strongly not acceptable.

@Farooq It could. Sometimes many prefer it, or many might not.

user116848

10:49 PM

So we get that by reading etc alot?

F.E.

Yes. :)

And/or study a 1800 page reference grammar, like the 2002 CGEL.

So, that's one of the differences between verbs like "hope" and verbs like "wish". Verbs like "wish" use up a preterite (a past-tense verb) to express that modal remoteness.

user116848

No way:p But I have read many grammar books like martin's A-O levels grammar but these type of sentences sometimes bothers me. That's why I joined ELU sites

F.E.

But it's good to have the 2002 CGEL handy, so as to look these kinds of issues up, in a vetted grammar source.

Damkerng T.

@F.E. Hehe.

F.E.

Most grammar sites are full of bad info, and poorly informed pedants. Just sayin'. :)

Damkerng T.

10:54 PM

@Farooq I usually use PEU (Practical English Usage) by Michael Swan. ELL is also greatly helpful.

user116848

So at what time can I come up here at ELL to ask about these grammar issues? Anytime? Anyone would be here to helpl right?

Damkerng T.

@Farooq I mean, posting a question on the main site.

user116848

here?

F.E.

@DamkerngT. Ha, ha! You funny :)

user116848

Ya there..

Damkerng T.

10:56 PM

@F.E. Hee. :)

F.E.

@Farooq The snaily one is usually here, at ELL chat. :)

user116848

I am not getting both of you making 'laughing' signs time to time. So what is it:p

user116848

You both moderators?

Damkerng T.

I usually talk and smile at the same time. I don't know why. :)

No, I'm not a mod.

user116848

By the way doing a good work helping others

F.E.

10:59 PM

@Farooq Those are "smiles" -- e.g. :) <-- that is a smile.

user116848

And :p too? Yes? I have noticed it alot

F.E.

@Farooq I don't know what that means --> :p

Damkerng T.

:p or :P means sticking the tongue out. :)

user116848

yes

Damkerng T.

I usually use :P when I want to talk irresponsibly.

user116848

11:02 PM

I am going offline now. Thanks to both F.E. and damkerng-t. Appreciate it.

F.E.

@Farooq Bye. :)

Damkerng T.

No problem. You're welcome here (and on the main ELL site too).

See you soon!

user116848

Bye:)

Damkerng T.

> Detroit took a gamble on Scott Green a year after the Tigers' third-round draft pick took a gamble of his own.

F.E.

@DamkerngT. And?

Damkerng T.

11:07 PM

This usage is a bit unfamiliar to me. It makes me wonder what his refers to: Scott or Tigers? It should be Scott, but then it doesn't quite make sense.

I think I couldn't make sense of it because I don't know the context.

F.E.

Yes, I think it probably does refer to Scott.

Scott Green seems to have been the Tigers' 3rd round draft pick.

Damkerng T.

In this case, it made me wonder "of his own [what?]"

F.E.

means "his own gamble".

And that the Tigers took a gamble when they drafted him.

Damkerng T.

Hmm... It sounds like Detroit got him.

Oh, I see. A year after.

F.E.

I don't follow baseball . . .

Damkerng T.

11:11 PM

I don't know much about baseball either. Perhaps it's similar to NBA or NFL?

F.E.

Yes, Green took a gamble at something, then a year later, Tigers took a gamble by drafting him.

All three are professional sports.

Damkerng T.

I usually watch NFL when I have a chance. I watched NBA when Jordan was still playing. I've almost never watched baseball.

Hmm... I think I haven't really watched any baseball. :)

I mean I've seen some of it, but I couldn't make sense of the game. :P

F.E.

Baseball is too slow for me. Basketball doesn't really mean anything until the playoffs.

Football is fun to watch.

NFL football, I mean (not soccer).

Damkerng T.

You didn't mean soccer, right? :)

Hehe.

F.E.

Grammar-wise, I've noticed how almost all grammar sites know next to nothing about backshifted preterites.

Damkerng T.

11:16 PM

Hmm...

They probably use a different set of terminologies, I guess.

F.E.

I see questions that involve backshifted preterites, and then see all the convoluted answers, answers that talk about a past time that is farther in the past that the other past time.

Damkerng T.

But it's true that a lot of grammar sites aren't as accurate as they should be.

F.E.

There's also a similar problem with modal remoteness (though not quite as bad).

Yes, but the only backshift they seem to be aware of is that in "reported speech". But they are unaware of all the other times it is used.

Damkerng T.

Oh, if that's the case, it's bad.

F.E.

Most of the grammar sites on the internet are full of traditional grammar--where they think English grammar is based on Latin grammar. Even university sites.

Damkerng T.

11:20 PM

Hah, even university sites?

F.E.

Especially them. Eg. cough cough

Damkerng T.

Wait, I thought OWL was good.

Could you give me some examples where they went wrong?

F.E.

Er, what page you wanna laugh at?

@DamkerngT. Maybe you wanna edit that. :)

Damkerng T.

Hah! Okay, let me see...

F.E.

Let me brew me some coffee . . .

Damkerng T.

11:23 PM

Okay, I'm looking at owl.english.purdue.edu/owl/resource/601/04.

F.E.

@DamkerngT. Okay, I got that page up . . . is there any spot I ought to start at? Or should I skim until something really funny hits my eye?

I haven't looked at this page before, I don't think. Usually it's something like "which vs that". But, I'm sure their quality--or lack thereof--will be consistent . . .

Damkerng T.

I'm not sure I could find anything funny myself. :P

Finding flaws in there would be quite useful for me.

trying to find some of them...

F.E.

Passive verb tenses -- wait. what? Ain't that funny right there?

Damkerng T.

Oh, an interesting choice of terminology!

F.E.

@DamkerngT. Yeah, traditional grammar terminology.

I'm looking at that page you linked to. Their very first example is all messed up--including their explanation. :( ugh.

I sure hope the instructor is now explaining the diagram to those students who had asked him questions on it.

Damkerng T.

11:36 PM

@F.E. I'm not sure I have heard it before. (And I think I was taught a traditional English grammar when I was young.)

F.E.

Today's English has only two tenses: present and past.

Damkerng T.

Ahh... I learned about the two-tense system from ELL. :)

F.E.

Passive is part of the voice system: active vs passive.

So, just the idea of "passive verb tenses" is just funky. Old traditional grammar nonsense.

No wonder the students get all confused.

Damkerng T.

I think the term is a non-sense even in traditional grammars.

It would be better to name it... probably "How to convert an active voice into the passive."

F.E.

If we look at that very first example on that page you linked to, er,

Damkerng T.

11:40 PM

> The instructor explains the diagram to students who asked questions during the lecture.

F.E.

I'd expect the past-tense for the situation where students asked questions during the lecture, and then, either at the end of the lecture or after it, the teacher answers those questions.

Damkerng T.

Oh, this one? I think there's nothing wrong with it.

F.E.

@DamkerngT. Yup. That sentence is fine.

Damkerng T.

nods

F.E.

The version with present tense "ask" is a bit trickier, more difficult to explain those situations where it is acceptable.

Damkerng T.

11:42 PM

It forces me to reinterpret the whole event.

F.E.

For present tense "ask": It's like as though the instructor already knows (from previous experience) as to which students are going to ask questions, and now, before the students even start asking their questions, he is answering them.

Damkerng T.

Hmm... To me, it's more like I have to use a zoom-out lens to see the event.

F.E.

The present tense version could also be used to mean what they have given as their explanation too.

But the past-tense is certainly not wrong.

Damkerng T.

nods -- Completely agree.

F.E.

Like, I tend to explain something AFTER the question was asked.

Damkerng T.

11:45 PM

You have really good eyes to catch these errors. :)

F.E.

Okay, their #2 example is really stupid. Okay.

Nay, I just use my AmE ear.

Damkerng T.

How can I recommend OWL to any learners now? :)

F.E.

I guess they are using their first 3 examples to restrict all verbs to present tense: but they are forgetting to look at the situation that they are describing, which was the problem of the 1st example.

Damkerng T.

nods

Frankly, when I read it the first time, I scanned through the examples, and I agreed with them. I think I just read them mechanically.

F.E.

A native-English speaker will almost immediately protest, because they already know about situations like that and how they would themselves have naturally have worded it.

Their 2nd and 3rd examples are just silly.

Damkerng T.

11:49 PM

nods

F.E.

Can you skim that article and see if they even mention "backshift" or modal remoteness use for the past-tense verbs?

Damkerng T.

I'm not sure if they really used the word "backshift".

F.E.

I'd expect backshift verbs to come up in reported speech. But doubt if they'll mention it at all in the other numerous places that it is used.

Damkerng T.

They have a page for Quotation Marks, with a section "Indirect Quotations".