The h Bar

Lu Bu

4:00 PM

But you don't need to.

=)

0celo7

@ACuriousMind ?

user228700

Right, I understand that a "balance" is established in this way but I'm asking about the industry of breeding animals for the sake of killing them later on.

John Rennie

Britain has the toughest laws in Europe on animal welfare, i.e. not treating domestic animals badly, and I support those.

So I'm not totally disinterested in the animal. I don't want animals to suffer just so we can eat them.

But the principle of breeding animals to eat gives me no problems.

user228700

@JohnRennie Why not?

John Rennie

@Kaumudi.H I don't think that can be answered. It's, well, an axiom I suppose. A basic principle that we assume instead of trying to derive.

user228700

4:03 PM

I understand what u are saying, but haven't u ever thought about it deeply? Perhaps venture to derive it?

John Rennie

From what principles would you attempt to derive it?

What starting point would you assume?

user228700

That animals don't exist for our needs--they must be allowed the freedom of having their own animal lives.

John Rennie

@Kaumudi.H I don't believe animals exist for any purpose. Animals are accidental throws of the evolutionary dice and exist only so long as their niche allows it.

So I see no reason why we shouldn't exploit them.

Fawad

@JohnRennie be aware some people will say it's animal abuse …blah blah

DHMO

@JohnRennie are we not also?

user228700

4:08 PM

Whoa there, I don't want for this to snowball into a philosophical debate but are u suggesting that humans exist for a purpose?

0celo7

@Kaumudi.H We were created to spread the word of the Lord Jesus Christ

Fawad

@Kaumudi.H what your religion says about humans on earth?

DHMO

good. this has become a religion debate.

user228700

^ And I'm not particularly interested to talk about this along these lines.

Fawad

Hi @YouKnowMe :)

John Rennie

4:11 PM

@Kaumudi.H Now look what you've started :-)

user228700

:-(

ACuriousMind

...what did you expect when you started to talk about what animals exist "for"? :P

user228700

@ACuriousMind Certainly not this!

Fawad

my side,iam stopped,I don't want to be suspended

user228700

^ This is not good.

John Rennie

4:14 PM

@Kaumudi.H you clearly do believe that animal life has at least some small purpose and therefore shouldn't be discarded just because I like bacon. And I don't want to attack your views.

user228700

Fair enough.

John Rennie

But I don't believe views like this can be derived in any useful way.

user228700

I will be quick to add, however, that I don't believe that any of us (including other animals!) have any inherent purpose.

John Rennie

You can discuss them and the consequances that result from them, and that can be an interesting conversation.

Balarka Sen

There're volumes on existentialist philosophy out there...

ACuriousMind

4:15 PM

@Fawad Sorry, what?

Fawad

6 mins ago, by Fawad

@Kaumudi.H what your religion says about humans on earth?

@ACuriousMind I will not raise these ^ questions

It's not appropriate here I suppose

user228700

@JohnRennie Yes. I agree that to determine what is "right" or "wrong" doesn't give way for an interesting (and decent) conversation.

ACuriousMind

@Fawad What? Who said so? We've only recently hashed out that there won't be any topic restrictions here. If you can have a civilized discussion about something, it's fair game.

John Rennie

@Kaumudi.H if you agree that animals don't exist for a purpose then I can't be frustrating that purpose by killing them in order to eat them.

Fawad

So OK, @Kaumudi.H answer it

ACuriousMind

4:18 PM

Note that people are not obliged to discuss with you, though.

Balarka Sen

@0celo7 and do genocides

user228700

@JohnRennie U aren't "frustrating" that purpose. It was my intention to understand why your conscience allows you to kill them and I understand it now--that u don't believe that they have an inherent purpose.

Balarka Sen

@Kaumudi Even if I believe they do have a purpose, why should killing them affect the conscience at all?

John Rennie

Basically yes. I am not making the world a worse place by paying others to kill the animals I eat (I rarely kill animals myself though I have done it).

Balarka Sen

Those two are not contradictory

user228700

4:20 PM

@BalarkaSen Again, "breeding for the sake of killing" not killing itself.

Lu Bu

@JohnRennie Well, factory farming contributes to global warming, and takes up space.

=)

Balarka Sen

I still don't know how that changes anything.

John Rennie

@Kaumudi.H if the breeding process was causing the animals suffering I would be uncomfortable with that, but as I mentioned above the UK is very strict on this point.

Lu Bu

So technically you are making it a worse place.

Balarka Sen

I can very well understand something existing for a purpose and can very well not care about that purpose.

Lu Bu

4:22 PM

I just don't see any reason to contribute to the enslavement of animals just so i could eat something that my body doesn't need.

user228700

@BalarkaSen Ah.

user228700

@JohnRennie Right, OK.

John Rennie

Bear in mind that wild animals generally have an unpleasant and short life.

user228700

@Fawad Like I said, I'm not particularly interested to have this conversation at the moment. In any case, I don't even know if I have a "religion".

John Rennie

Most wild animals die, of cold or starvation, shortly after birth.

Of the ones who make it to breeding age none will die peacefully in their beds.

I don't believe there is anything special or noble about the wild state.

Lu Bu

4:25 PM

@JohnRennie What is your point?

John Rennie

Consequently I don't see there is any loss in domesticating animals.

Lu Bu

There are the GHGs from factory farming and habitat loss.

But yeah, my take on this is just that i don't see any need to kill animals for food.

user228700

I do understand the other side of this conversation.

user228700

Why Are Vegetarians Annoying? (An Exploration of a Cultural Rift)

►

John Rennie

Anyone who says, or implies, I am better than you is annoying. That's human nature.

user228700

4:29 PM

I urge you to resist judging the title of the video...

user228700

> "Why Are Vegetarians Annoying? (An Exploration of a Cultural Rift)

Emilio Pisanty

@NSNoob - sorry, I don't think I got you. There will be no way to revert. We are going to consolidate the design on other SE sites to match this new design. — Oded ♦ 2 hours ago

Re the new top bar on StackOverflow

How Stack Overflow Redesigned the Top Navigation

Kurtis Beavers on February 14, 2017

You may have noticed that we’re sporting a new look today.

Balarka Sen

is it me or the discussion suddenly shifted from existentialism and purpose of life to vegan lifestyle

Emilio Pisanty

possibly coming soon to an SE site near you?

user228700

@BalarkaSen It has not shifted, this is where we began.

ACuriousMind

4:32 PM

@BalarkaSen There was a discussion of existentialism?

user228700

42 mins ago, by Kaumudi. H

@JohnRennie I see. Why have u continued to stay a non-vegetarian? Do u just happen to like the taste..?

Balarka Sen

I jumped in the middle and it seemed like it. I have no clue what goes around this chat

user228700

That is where this discussion began.

user228700

@ACuriousMind For a little bit, yes :-P

ACuriousMind

@EmilioPisanty Yeah, saw that. Honestly, most of those "user responses" sound completely made up to me, but what do I know?

Emilio Pisanty

4:33 PM

@ACuriousMind meh, who cares

nav comes nav goes

remember this?

14

Q: Help! There's a giant ugly thing on top of the page!

As you probably noticed, there is a new top bar implemented on this site. This is part of a network-wide experiment in... UI design I guess? Details on The new top bar is out on meta. Consider it a beta I'm not complaining about or complimenting the way the features are implemented (not her...

John Rennie

@Kaumudi.H OK, I watched the video and I basically agree with everything said in it.

user228700

OK :-)

John Rennie

Did you think I wouldn't?

Emilio Pisanty

this, on the other hand, is weird

in PHP on Stack Overflow Chat, 2 hours ago, by NikiC

basically Github and StackOverflow swapped headers?

what on Earth happened to github?

user228700

@JohnRennie Er, sort of.

ACuriousMind

4:36 PM

@EmilioPisanty Nope, I signed up here four months after that :P

John Rennie

@Kaumudi.H Ah. Hmm. OK. I'm curious to know what you thought I might disagree with.

Emilio Pisanty

@ACuriousMind yah, well, it happened

top bar was different before that

user228700

@JohnRennie I didn't think that u acknowledge the fact that vegetarianism might be better for the planet.

ACuriousMind

Do they say anywhere if they're getting rid of the useless "total flags pending" indicator?

I hate that number

Emilio Pisanty

@ACuriousMind if this is a mod thing, I don't think it's very prominent

John Rennie

4:38 PM

@Kaumudi.H That vegetable protein production is more efficient than animal protein production is undeniable.

Emilio Pisanty

y'all're like 0.000001% of the population

ACuriousMind

@EmilioPisanty No, I mean the red number to the left of review

The mod flag indicator is useful.

Emilio Pisanty

@ACuriousMind oh, that

I don't think they are

Balarka Sen

imho there are much more serious things which would be better for the planet than veganism, if human beings implemented them

John Rennie

And as the world population increases there's going to be a point where it's unsustainable to breed animals to eat.

Emilio Pisanty

4:39 PM

in fact, I think it's gon' become a bit more prominent

look at that big Review gathingammy top right in the new SO design

user228700

@BalarkaSen Veganism $\ne$ Vegetarianism.

John Rennie

That point isn't now. I don't know when that point will come. Indeed it might never come.

Balarka Sen

whatever

the latter is what i meant

ACuriousMind

@EmilioPisanty Where?

Emilio Pisanty

anyways, @ACuriousMind I give you: the pre-2013 top bar

web.archive.org/web/20130113000047/http://…

John Rennie

4:40 PM

@Kaumudi.H but does that necessarily mean I personally should stop eating meat?

Emilio Pisanty

between achievements and all sites

the link to review

0celo7

@BalarkaSen are you vegetarian?

user228700

@JohnRennie Perhaps. I suppose it boils down to whether or not u feel that ur actions might have any significant impact.

Balarka Sen

nah man

ACuriousMind

Ah. I've got no problems with a more prominent review button, just the useless number annoys me :P

John Rennie

4:42 PM

@Kaumudi.H I am pretty confident my actions have a negligable impact.

user228700

OK...

ACuriousMind

@EmilioPisanty Interesting

Emilio Pisanty

@ACuriousMind note in particular that the inbox and achievements things were different

but you can't really see that in that not-logged-in view

user228700

Right, I'm off. Bye, everyone :-)

John Rennie

Bye :-)

Emilio Pisanty

4:44 PM

^ previous top-left look

note two clicks needed to 'inbox' and 'notifications'

can't remember what went into 'notifications'

also known at the time as the Stack Exchange™ MultiCollider SuperDropdown™

ACuriousMind

I guess there's no chance they'll hide hot questions in a dropdown again, is there? :P

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