The h Bar

" This principle states that if A is a class of ordinal numbers with the property that every ordinal number included in A also belongs to A, then every ordinal number is in A. "

IIRC it's the ZFC theorem that induction on N is based on

0celo7

I've heard of people proving the monotone class lemma using transfinite induction.

the somehow transfinitely construct a sigma algebra inductively

sounds nuts

Sir Cumference

This is so cringy

Oh, speaking of which, @Slereah quick question

If $a = 0$ then the observable universe is infinitely large, right?

Skyler

4:41 AM

Whoever made this should be required to take statistical mechanics until he passes the course

Slereah

What

If $a = 0$ your metric isn't a metric

Sir Cumference

@Skyler It's spread like wildfire on the internet. Apparently a bunch of crackpots think they've "beaten the atheists"

@Slereah I'm stupid

0celo7

Atheists are pretty cringy, yeah

Sir Cumference

Okay, which one of you smart alecs liked starred that >_>

0celo7

guess

Sir Cumference

4:47 AM

@Slereah Anyway, as $a$ gets smaller the comoving distance to the cosmic event horizon increases, right?

@SirCumference Ugh, my internet disconnected so I couldn't delete this...

0celo7

Hah!

someone else starred it

Sir Cumference

It's plotting with you guys

0celo7

not my alt account I promise

Sir Cumference

@0celo7 Pissed off layman? >_>

0celo7

I'm not telling you

Sir Cumference

4:49 AM

ಠ_ಠ

0celo7

I'm not a layman

that much I can way

Sir Cumference

@0celo7 Pissed off geometer?

0celo7

I'm an analyst

but no, you'd never guess what my alt account is

Sir Cumference

And geometer, I guess?

@0celo7 Have I spoken to it?

0celo7

:)

Sir Cumference

4:52 AM

@0celo7 ಠ_ಠ

Maybe you're trolling me

And you don't have any alt

0celo7

:)

If you say so

Sir Cumference

........

0celo7

I'm not allowed to troll anymore

rob would have my nuts if i did

even though I'm a girl

but you get the idea

Sir Cumference

But you're allowed to use an alt?

@0celo7 what

0celo7

are you confused?

Sir Cumference

4:57 AM

i dunno

quit messing with my head!

0celo7

5:14 AM

word crashed

last 20 minutes of my life erased

sobs

Sir Cumference

@0celo7 ouch

0celo7

fucking AC is going nuts

Slereah

5:47 AM

Sir Cumference

6:07 AM

@Slereah Where'd you get that?

I don't see it on xkcd

Slereah

It is a parody

user228700

@JohnRennie: Morning :-)

John Rennie

Morning :-)

Sir Cumference

@Kaumudi.H @JohnRennie Howdy :)

user228700

@SirCumference Yello :-)

John Rennie

6:14 AM

It's cold and dark in the UK right now, and I don't have any more new laptops to play with. Life is hard sometimes.

user228700

@JohnRennie :-( It might comfort you to acknowledge that you don't have any more exams to write--I have to write one in about 30 minutes. Fml.

John Rennie

Wow. A practice exam or a real one?

user228700

Practice.

John Rennie

Aha. Well good luck. You've certainly been putting in the work for it.

user228700

But I haven't finished revising :'-(

user228700

6:17 AM

...should probably stop talking and try to finish as much possible :-P

John Rennie

I think you should be relaxing right now.

Talk about food or (shudder) folk music :-)

user228700

Lol, no, I really do have much revision to do. Besides, I'm writing this exam at home and it's not scheduled or anything. I can write it at any time. It's just that my mom needs me to write it in half an hour and I haven't finished aaah!!!

John Rennie

Yesterday's lunch :-)

user228700

I'm very curious about those items because I dunno about any of them but if I don't revise now, I'm gonna die.

user228700

I'll ask you after the test, sigh.

John Rennie

6:26 AM

OK see you in a few hours ...

John Rennie

6:49 AM

Balls, I have a server down this morning. Looks like a power supply problem - probably a faulty UPS.

DanielSank

Theorists of the site take note: asking about real life is not off topic.

@JohnRennie How dare you?! This is a chatroom for physics, not random fried foods.

John Rennie

:-)

DanielSank

Get your vulgar opinions about what should and shouldn't be fried out of here and let's stick to real physics, ok?

John Rennie

It was a junk food special :-)

DanielSank

That plate looks like a heart attack waiting to happen. How could you come here and advertise it like that? Do you realize that many of our users are stressed out and short-on-time students who might be tempted to adopt your horrible diet?

I, for one, wish that such topics weren't discussed here.

John Rennie

6:53 AM

I haven't reviewed last night's log yet, but I gather there was some controversy about what is on topic here.

DanielSank

/sarcasm

@JohnRennie You could say that ;-)

John Rennie

I should read the log before commenting, but if sex and politics are ruled off-topic that wouldn't have me crying into my breakfast cereal.

DanielSank

On a related note: eating in front of the keyboard? Tut tut.

@JohnRennie Ho boy, I'm going to get banned for this...

Recently, a collaborator of mine, the best I've worked with, has been pushed around in his career choices due to the changes in U.S. immigration policy.

John Rennie

Quite right actually. I do replace keyboards regularly as a result of gunk build up. But what the hell, keyboards are cheap and I like eating at the keyboard :-)

DanielSank

This affects my work very directly and I would like to discuss it. However, I'm not allowed to do so in hbar and I find that problematic.

@JohnRennie Fair enough. I never touch a keyboard without washing my hands first. I'm a little obsessive.

But because of that my three year old laptop looks almost new ;-)

John Rennie

6:56 AM

Given how much I spend on laptops, most of which I subsequently give away, it seems silly not to buy myself new keyboards regularly.

DanielSank

@JohnRennie Fair enough.

I find it shortsighted(?) to ban an entire topic out of fear that it could cause degenerate chat. It would seem more reasonable to spend some time observing what topics actually lead to bad behavior and then describe those topics and the concerns about how they can cause problems in a clear meta post.

2

Spend a couple weeks aggressively moderating against poor behavior, and see what happens. If everything is still a mess, fine, ban "politics", but if it's possible to maintain discussion on some issues like "how to keep working with your Iranian collaborator", then we should do what we can to allow that.

John Rennie

Sex is an obvious no no given we have minors in the chat room. Politics is a harder decision given how important it is and how much it impacts science.

DanielSank

@JohnRennie Wait a sec... minors can't talk about sex?

Is this puritan-bar or h-bar?

anonymous

@DanielSank I was debating with ACM on the same issue about 10 hours back. He seems reluctant. See his reply: chat.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/35238051#35238051

10 hours ago, by ACuriousMind

@anonymous You're free to complain on meta or to the SE staff. But several users (the author of the pinned message, the ones who starred it, and Emilio by reposting it) have expressed a desire for this room to be free from politics and by pinning the message the moderators and room owners have decided that this is a reasonable request to make in times like these where political discussions have a tendency to blow up (and have done so, repeatedly, across the SE network, both in chat and on metas).

John Rennie

Conversations between grown men and 14 year old girls that relate to sex leave me very uneasy and I'd prefer they didn't happen here.

DanielSank

7:02 AM

You know, it might be my American culture showing through here, but I guess I'm inclined to say "innocent until proven guilty" w.r.t. what we can discuss. We Americans have a strong love of free and open speech/press/etc.

We get very easily worried by censorship.

@JohnRennie Again, that's a subset of "sex", no?

John Rennie

Whoever starred my comment I'm going to cancel the star - sorry. I don't want that on the star board.

DanielSank

Woah, magic powers.

John Rennie

Thanks :-)

DanielSank

Oh, you didn't cancel it?

John Rennie

No I assume the original starer did

Good grief that's awful grammar :-)

DanielSank

7:04 AM

Meh.

Oh, John, this evening I ate two things that would interest you:

John Rennie

If that was you, Anonymous, thanks :-)

DanielSank

1) Bacon wrapped around dates stuffed with cheese.

anonymous

I had starred it (and then removed it) and is something I agree with. @JohnRennie Welcome :)

DanielSank

2) Some seriously amazing brisket.

John Rennie

(1) Oooh
(2) Oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooohh!!!!!!!!!!!! :-)

DanielSank

7:06 AM

I guess "sex" is such a broad topic that I have trouble understanding how a blanket ban makes sense. Whatever.

@JohnRennie Yes. Quite right.

John Rennie

Well cooked brisket is a joy

DanielSank

My friend has a smoker and a love of meats.

John Rennie

It has such a wonderful flavour

DanielSank

Yessir.

John Rennie

It's often the meats that need serious cooking that have the best flavours. Have you ever eaten mutton i.e. mutton as opposed to lamb?

DanielSank

7:07 AM

Here's a question: can I ask other users questions about the political system in their countries?

Can I ask about how funding for science works in the U.K.?

@ACuriousMind @rob @DavidZ @dmckee

Have the mods considered the incredibly far reach of "politics" and how it could affect the chat?

John Rennie

Probing for exactly where a line can be dawn is a well know rhetorical tactic and not really worthy of you. I'm not comfortable with a ban on politics, but I don't think poking the moderators helps.

Politicsis such a part of life that it clearly can't be banned outright without stifling the room.

DanielSank

@JohnRennie I fail to see how that question is not "worthy" of me or a useful discussion and I'm irked that you'd say that.

Why not ban "discussions about US immigration law"?

John Rennie

But at the same time there are limits. We have to try and be sensible about where to place those limits.

DanielSank

How about even "US politics"?

@JohnRennie Yes and I think the current rule implied by the star board is so vague and overreaching that it's not worthy of this room or its users.

John Rennie

The rule is basically not to offend other chat room members, and banning politics is an attempt to regulate that

Like any rule it can't help but be rather ill targetted

DanielSank

7:11 AM

@JohnRennie Ok, you're doing something that happens here often and it's a real problem. You have a notion of what the rule means. You accept it because in your mind, there are shades of meaning and unwritten details that you find acceptable.

This is not an acceptable way to write policy for an online community.

John Rennie

That's the way life is

Blasted human beings!

Why can't they be more consistent?

DanielSank

@JohnRennie That's a common rhetorical tactic and not worthy of you.

John Rennie

I wouldn't say it was a rhetorical tactic. I freely admit I am an arch-compromiser but I'm not sure that's a bad thing to be.

DanielSank

@JohnRennie It is a tactic. You see that you lost ground in the debate and fell back to "life's not fair".

John Rennie

I think compromise is something of a British institution and I think it generally works pretty well for us.

DanielSank

7:13 AM

Total bollocks and you know it

John Rennie

Now you have me grinning :-)

DanielSank

@JohnRennie Oh give me a fucking break. I'm arguing in favor of a compromise! I'm suggesting banning the stuff that's problematic and leaving the rest alone.

anonymous

@DanielSank I don't think anything can happen unless you convince the mods. Better write a Meta SE post asking for clarification. Yesterday Kyle simply mentioning the US immigration law led his message to be trashed.

DanielSank

@anonymous Yes, indeed the meta is the right field. I am enjoying sharpening the axe with John though.

It's nice to hash out some ideas with smart people ahead of time.

John Rennie

@DanielSank and I agree. I'm not sure why you seem to be shouting at me. I don't think we differ (much).

DanielSank

7:15 AM

@JohnRennie I'm "shouting" because you started to drop some kind of moral superiority about the British liking compromise instead of actually debating the points at hand.

John Rennie

I didn't intend to come over as morally superior. I genuinely think a spirit of compromise is a good thing.

DanielSank

@BernardoMeurer please read the discussion above before posting that meta post we were working on.

@JohnRennie That's so obviously true that I can't help thinking that you see me and my countrymen as six year olds.

Please do correct me.

John Rennie

I see you as impassioned (right now).

that makes me a little uneasy because I associate passion in politics with idealogues.

DanielSank

@JohnRennie Oh, er, for what it's worth I'm sitting on my couch enjoying a rainstorm and an online Russian lesson.

John Rennie

NB I'm not accusing you of being an idelaogue.

DanielSank

7:18 AM

@JohnRennie Uh, if anything I'm passionate about open conversation and not banning huge swaths of conversation-space because a tiny part of it is problematic.

John Rennie

But the people who scream their views at me from the TV are generally people I don't rate highly.

DanielSank

@JohnRennie So, ok, I'm puzzled. You think I'm shouting because of the f-word, or what?

John Rennie

I think life is nuanced and there aren't clear and easy solutions to any problems.

DanielSank

@JohnRennie That is a most useless comment, sir.

John Rennie

So I absolutely agree with you that the clear and easy solution of banning political discussion here is wrong.

DanielSank

7:20 AM

ah

John Rennie

Just like the clear and easy solution of banning immigration based on nationality

DanielSank

LOL

Sir Cumference

@Kaumudi.H Uh, one of those is french fries

DanielSank

@JohnRennie I'd star that because it's hilarious and clever, but I'd hate for you to get banned for talking about politics.

John Rennie

@SirCumference SACRILEGE!!!! They are CHIPS not FRENCH FRIES!!!

@DanielSank :-)

DanielSank

7:21 AM

Now who's the shouting ideologue?

Sir Cumference

@JohnRennie So then what are these ?

DanielSank

crisps

John Rennie

@SirCumference Crisps

DanielSank

@JohnRennie do I get UK citizenship yet?

Sir Cumference

Huh

Potato chips in my book

John Rennie

7:22 AM

@DanielSank absolutely :-)

@SirCumference just one of the many differences between UK and US dialects (that probably isn't the correct linguistic term)

My instinct is to give it 24 hours to let things cool then revisit the discussion.

DanielSank

@SirCumference When a Brit tells you that their word usage is more authoritative than yours because they invented the language, counter that while they are right to say they invented the language, your word choice is more correct because Americans invented the object being described by the word.

Americans have invented a lot of stuff, so some times, as a bonus, the talking point is even true.

John Rennie

Anyway, back to work. I have to see what I can do about my dead server - though fixing a broken UPS remotely is beyond even my powers.

Sir Cumference

@DanielSank Woah

DanielSank

@JohnRennie Mail it to me. I'll fix it.

John Rennie

There is no right and wrong in dialects. I love both the US and American dialects and would only ever comment on them if I'm attempting to tease.

DanielSank

7:26 AM

Nine times out of ten it's some dumb problem with the battery.

@JohnRennie I hope it's clear that we're pretty deep into Teaslandia.

John Rennie

Probably - but it's 200 miles away and our engineers are still in bed ...

DanielSank

ah

anonymous

@DanielSank Well, most Americans aren't native to the land and mostly immigrants from all over the world of first,second, third or fourth generation. Only about 1.7 percent of the whole population consists of natives. So that's not a very good argument in my opinion :).

There was a nice article on this topic: gilderlehrman.org/history-by-era/immigration-and-migration/…

Sir Cumference

@JohnRennie To be fair, "French fries" don't even come from France, so....

anonymous

7:45 AM

@SirCumference Ow! I didn't know that :D

Good fact.

user228700

@JohnR: Halp! (No, I haven't started writing yet :-P)

Sir Cumference

@anonymous At least, they probably didn't come from France. British soldiers who thought they were in France discovered them, but they might've been in Belgium

John Rennie

@Kaumudi.H What's up?

user228700

@JohnRennie It's not an urgent question but it's certainly pressing. Dyou like revising for exams in the few weeks/days leading up to them?

John Rennie

I think you should revuise your socks off in the month before an exam then rest on the day before.

The key thing with an exam is to go in feeling relaxed and confident.

user228700

7:49 AM

No, no, I'm not asking what one needs to do--of course that is important.

John Rennie

Last minute revision rarely helps with this.

user228700

I'm asking if u like going over things you've learned over and over again, if u like that process.

anonymous

@Kaumudi.H I have to revise the whole syllabus a week before exams or I forget everything :P I rest on the last 1 or 2 days.

user228700

Lol, that edit x'D

John Rennie

It can be nice to discover that you understand things better than you thought.

Surely there have been moments in the last few weeks when you've suddenly realised you do really understand something, and that's a great feeling.

DanielSank

7:51 AM

@anonymous I have tried and failed to understand how that comment is related to anything said previously in the chat log.

user228700

@JohnRennie ...alright, I don't think u know what I mean.

John Rennie

I think I've witnessed a few of those occasions.

anonymous

@Kaumudi.H I have my mock tests coming up in 2 weeks. I am revising the whole syllabus from my notes now :'D.

DanielSank

What has being "native" to do with anything?

If you're a citizen you're a citizen.

user228700

@JohnRennie What I'm doing right now and what I will be doing for many more weeks, for certain is not revision.

John Rennie

7:52 AM

Really?

user228700

I've always wondered why u refer to it as "revision".

user228700

Revision is going over what you've already studied before, yes?

anonymous

@Kaumudi.H You didn't study the chapters before ?

John Rennie

@Kaumudi.H Yes.

Balarka Sen

Surely there are more constructive ways to spend your time than discussing the metaphilosophy of revision? By, eg, actually revising/reading?

2

user228700

7:53 AM

@BalarkaSen I have a point and I'm leading up to it.

anonymous

^Agree

John Rennie

I was under the impression you had done this stuff at school and were going back over it. Is it all new to you?

You did say:

2 hours ago, by Kaumudi. H

But I haven't finished revising :'-(

user228700

@JohnRennie Well, that was for today's test!

user228700

To go through what I have learned in the past few months, not everything!

John Rennie

Aha. I've been labouring under a misapprehension.

user228700

7:54 AM

@JohnRennie I had done some of this at school but most of it is completely new stuff.

Sir Cumference

@obe I'm reading from this guy's Wikipedia page

John Rennie

Wow, in that case I take my hat off to you - you've been doing amazingly well.

user228700

So no, I have been studying, not revising all along.

Sir Cumference

> Chopra has likened the universe to a "reality sandwich" which has three layers: the "material" world, a "quantum" zone of matter and energy, and a "virtual" zone outside of time and space, which is the domain of God, and from which God can direct the other layers.

user228700

@JohnRennie :-) Thanks so much--most of it is you when you're teaching me. It's fairly easy to grasp when u're able to break it down for me this well.

user228700

7:55 AM

Eg: Mechanics. I had done close to nothing in school.

Sir Cumference

@Kaumudi.H My high school didn't teach us anything past kinematics :/

John Rennie

Anyway, as a general rule I don't like revising because I'd sooner spend my time learning exciting new stuff. But revising does have its moments when you realise you really do understand something.

user228700

If u know the syllabus of the CBSE, u'd call me out and say I'm lying because you see, we do have Mechanics but as to why I didn't do it at school, that's another story entirely.

user228700

So back to why I brought up revision...

John Rennie

OK ...?

user228700

7:57 AM

I. Hate. Revision.

user228700

In school, I have lost close to 4-5 marks just because I didn't want to revise those bits on the day before.

user228700

(Not in my finals :-P)

user228700

And I have no clue what to do about this.

Transcript for