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2:04 PM
JD is pretty much a master debater
@JohnDuffield ::big sigh:: That really has nothing to do with my question. And your answer to my question was so poor it got a whole lot of downvotes and was deleted. Ouch.
@ACuriousMind Are we supposed to have a serif font now?
 
@0celo7 I would expect that when the update is complete, yes.
 
@ACuriousMind So it this the big day? Everything's changing?
PSE is going through internet puberty?
 
I know about as much as you do, no idea when the update will be complete
@0celo7 lol
I must say I don't like the blue for the bounties/featured number/other stuff. The former color was nicer.
 
2:27 PM
Is the title font different as well?
 
Yes. The previous font looks bold in comparison.
 
It looks...different now.
 
But, as you said, we're supposed to get a serif font, so I guess this will change again
Maybe they just migrated us to a "standard" version of the new CSS and will apply the Physics.SE specific changes later
 
Probably stupoid question: why is this taking so long?
Why can't Jeff or his minions just punch the "update" button?
 
@0celo7 I have no idea how exactly any of this technically works, but I guess it's a bit more difficult than that ;)
 
2:39 PM
@ACuriousMind Is GR a functor in some sense? (Like how TQFT is a functor or path integral QFT is a functor.)
 
first quantization is a mystery, but second quantization is a functor --- Ed Nelson
 
Not as sad as the Redskins yesterday
 
@0celo7 "In some sense" certainly, but I don't think in any interesting sense.
 
@ACuriousMind I doubt that a theory could be a functor, even "in some sense"
:-P
 
@yuggib Well, but 0celo7 gave the example of TQFT, where the usual parlance is indeed to say "it is a functor", even if there's more to it.
 
2:44 PM
@0celo7 Noooo...you spoiled the finale (I was planning of seeing it tonight)
no spoilers for the bcs national tomorrow please
 
Meh I don't care about either team...you're safe.
 
@0celo7 Jeff doesn't work for SE anymore, btw
 
@ACuriousMind it's like saying that analysis is a functor
 
@ACuriousMind And m00t doesn't run 4chan any more. Yeah right.
 
it doesn't make sense
 
2:48 PM
@yuggib That's probably why we physicists like that phrasing ;P
 
Is analysis a functor?
 
@ACuriousMind I was thinking the same...
 
From the category of rigor to painful exercises?
 
@0celo7 Analysis is the forgetful functor from mathematical physics to mathematics
2
it is quite clear what is forgotten...
 
You're going to have to explain that one :(
 
2:50 PM
:-P
 
@yuggib The relevant question is whether it has an adjoint turning a mathematical object into the "free physics" on it!
 
Also, now that I'm back at school, I have no clue how to survive
What does one eat here
 
@ACuriousMind Apply the adjoint functor theorem
 
What's that
 
@0celo7 what's what?
 
2:53 PM
@yuggib your mom
Jan 2 at 10:28, by yuggib
very good, cleanliness is important
I agree, need to shower.
 
@yuggib You sure "mathematical physics" or "mathematics" are complete categories?
 
oh god what have I done
the nerds are too powerful
 
@ACuriousMind good question...is metamathematics included in mathematics?
 
@yuggib Including meta-X in X seems to leads to infinite recursion, but then again, I don't have a problem with that. So yeah, go ahead and include it
 
@ACuriousMind Of course it will, that's the nice part :)
 
2:58 PM
It appears as if the law of inertia is merely a postulate which just seems like a law
 
Anyways, I don't have a clue on what (small) diagrams would be on both math and math_phys :-P
 
We'd have to settle what the objects and morphisms are first, anyway
 
probably yes
 
How do we know that a body is isolated from all forces ?
 
I would go with $\{\mathrm{objects}\}=\text{physical universe}$, and $\{\mathrm{morphisms}\}=\{\text{(mathematically rigorous) physical theories}\}$
does it seem reasonable?
 
3:06 PM
@yuggib What's the "theory" corresponding to the identity morphism?
 
@ACuriousMind complete absence of physical laws
everything goes by itself with no reason or governing law
(I am thinking about the math_phys category now obviously)
@0celo7 you should participate in the conversation....since it's your fault :P
 
@yuggib I don't understand the conversation
Now if you want to talk about constant rank maps
that would be of interest to me
but it's pretty boring in itself so I don't think that will happen
 
What about postulate nature of law of inertia ..
 
How is a postulate different from a law of nature?
 
I mean it's circular in it's explaination
 
3:15 PM
Explain please
 
I mean like eddington says that newton just postulates that a certain force is acting whenever he sees that something is not maintaining constant velocity
Like invisible gravitational force
 
yeah, that's the definition of a force
a force is by definition the RHS of ma=
 
How you determine isolated particles
 
Could anyone be able to confirm this?
 
No I've read feynman lectures he says that we should have a concept of force different than ma , if you define force to be ma then u have discovered nothing
 
3:20 PM
Well what does he say our concept should be
the spatial derivative of the Lagrangian?
 
@yuggib Okay, what's the math category, then?
 
@ACuriousMind useless
 
Nope u r going much faar he says that u have a intuition of force as push or pull then you establish mass and then quantitatively get the number ma as measure of force
 
Would it kill you to spell out "you" and "are" :/
5
 
True @0celo7
 
3:24 PM
Ok then
You want me to write all that again
 
No
 
Then what
 
@HiteshPathak lol
 
Is that somekind of rule here I chat usually that way
 
It's a rule of civilized conversation imo
but it's not a big deal
Ok, so do we agree that out intuitive notion of "force" strives to change the velocity of the particle?
 
3:27 PM
Yes
 
So if the velocity is constant there is no force
Or at least, the net force is zero
Constant velocity is exactly what we mean by "law of inertia"
 
Yeah but you need a proper frame to say this a force is just like a mascular push or pull intuitively it don't depends on velocity
 
Yes, you need an inertial frame.
 
Like you intuitively know what is time
Yeah at first newton said we need a absolute space frame that GOD'S FRAME
But first we need to know the ISOLATED particle thing
Have you read the nature of physical world by sir arthut eddington
There's a harsh criticism of law of inertia there
Can anyone explain Ludwig lange's definition of an inertial frame ??
 
What is his definition
Arnold's definition is: A frame in which the laws of nature are the same as in any other inertial frame and any two inertial frames are related by rectlinear motion
this can be made precise by considering Galilean space
(really spaces, but they're all isomorphic)
 
3:43 PM
Definition I. ‘Inertial system’ is called any coordinate system of the kind that in relation to it three points P;P0;P00, projected from the same space point and then left to themselves— which, however, may not lie in one straight line—move on three arbitrary straight lines G;G0;G00 (e.g., on the coordinate axes) that meet at one point.
It goes over my head can anyone get it..
But still what so far I've got is that an isolated particle is the one which is sufficiently far away
 
With gravity in play there are no isolated particles.
 
@ACuriousMind That I don't know
 
How much far away they say sufficient
I think they mean sufficient enough so that when you see it from fixed stars you will see constant velocity
 
Depends on how much you want to fudge "constant"
 
That's where the circular explaination appears
 
3:49 PM
there's nothing circular -- there are no truly inertial frames in a gravitational system
there are approximate ones, sure
 
But I think Lange's definition atleast theoretically defines the condition a perfect inertial frame should have
 
If you have Springer access, check out the first few pages of V.I. Arnold, Mathematical Methods of Classical Mechanics (1989)
 
I'm not that much familiar with gravitation
I've got a article from there about this lange's stuff
Also mach principle adds more to.difficulties in determining the isolated bodies
 
@ACuriousMind In 2nd quantization, scalar/spinor/vector fields are replaced by "operator fields", i.e. functions that map each spacetime point onto an operator. Like, instead of mapping each spacetime point onto a number/spinor/vector, they are mapped onto operators that operate on the Fock space. Right so far?
 
@Bass Mostly right, except that it is not "the Fock space" for general theories.
 
4:00 PM
@ACuriousMind But it's a Fock space for QED? And for QCD and electroweak?
 
@HiteshPathak What are you asking?
 
@Bass Ehhh...no. It's only a Fock space for free theories. All your particle states and such live in the future/past asymptotic spaces, for which the theory is assumed to be free.
But the fields themselves are supposed to be operators on the space of states of the fully interacting theory
 
@ACuriousMind Oh okay. Haven't yet begun with interactions in 2nd quantization, but good to know.
@ACuriousMind So, my question is, what's the correct terminology or definition for such a field? A vector field is a section of a vector bundle, a scalar field is a section of a trivial line bundle etc., does that mean that a quantized field is a "section of an operator bundle" or something similar?
 
@Bass nobody knows what the space of interacting field theories would be...
@Bass usually the quantized fields are called operator valued distributions
 
@Bass I suppose you could try to make that a bundle, but the space of operators will be infinite-dimensional, so that's not as straightforward a bundle as the others. Just say that the fields are operator-valued functions (actually distributions, but that's almost always glossed over)
 
4:06 PM
since they map vectors in the one-particle space (an infinite dimensional vector space) to self-adjoint operators
 
@yuggib "vectors in the one-particle space".. don't they map spacetime points to self-adjoint operators? Like $\phi(x)$ for a scalar theory?
 
@Bass no, this is not exact
it is often convenient to write the object $\phi(x)$
but this is precisely the operator-valued distribution
"written as a function"
it makes sense as an operator when integrated with a one-particle function $f(x)$, i.e.
$\phi(f)=\int f(x)\phi(x)dx$ is the operator
 
4:21 PM
What's a one particle function
 
@0celo7 an object of the one-particle (or classical) space
 
@0celo7 3 hours until I do the calculus lesson, I'm nervous.
If it works that would be really cool.
 
@yuggib So $f$ is a classical solution of the KG/Dirac/Maxwell equation, right?
And in QFT, $f$ is interpreted like some measure that says "where do we need how much of $\phi$". If $f$ was "concentrated" at $x_0$ like $f(x)=\delta(x-x_0)$, we'd have $\phi(f)=\phi(x_0)$. Does that make sense?
 
@Bass the fact that it is a solution of the KG/Dirac etc is not strictly necessary, however yes, that's the idea; it is at least a function on a functional space where you can solve the suitable equation
and yes, if it would be allowed to take $f=\delta$, then you would have $\phi(x)$; sadly, it is usually not allowed, and you need to take $f$ that are much more regular
 
4:37 PM
@yuggib Not strictly necessary meaning not a requirement on $f$? I just realized that would make sense, since $\phi$ satisfies the KG equation already, so we don't need $f$ to satisfy it, right?
@yuggib Regular you mean like smooth/continuous/not-a-distribution?
 
@Bass As far as I know, it is not a requirement to define the quantum fields; however there are people that take allowed $f$ to be only solutions of the equation
@Bass yes...for the usual scalar KG theory, the $f$ is usually taken to be in the Schwarz space of smooth functions
 
Ah that's the "smearing function".. cool, makes sense. Gotta think about it more.
@yuggib @ACuriousMind thanks!
 
@Bass you're welcome ;-)
 
Guess how our lecturer at my class defined inertial frame " It's aaaa... the frame of distant fixed heavenly bodies ..."
And to my surprise almost whole class nodded heads
 
2
Q: Why does $\mathrm{tr}(\mathrm{ln}g_{\mu\nu})$ vary as $g^{\mu\nu}\cdot\delta g_{\mu\nu}$ under $\delta g_{\mu\nu}$?

BassFor a pseudo-Riemannian manifold, under the variation $g_{\mu\nu}\mapsto g_{\mu\nu}+\delta g_{\mu\nu}$, the determinant $g=\mathrm{det}g_{\mu\nu}$ varies as $$\delta g=gg^{\mu\nu}\delta g_{\mu\nu}$$ Nakahara proves this with the matrix identity $$\tag{1}\mathrm{ln}(\mathrm{det}g_{\mu\nu})=\mathr...

@Bass Did I resolve that in chat?
In any case, that answer is correct.
 
5:16 PM
@ACuriousMind Suppose I have some submanifold $\Sigma\hookrightarrow\mathcal{M}$ and some vector field $l$ tangent to $\Sigma$. Let $u\in T_p\Sigma,p\in \Sigma$. How can I show that there is some vector field $\hat u$ that satisfies $\hat u_p=u$ and $\phi_{t*}\hat u=\hat u$ where $\phi$ is the flow of $l$?
$\hat u$ needs to be at least $C^1$ and defined in some open set around $p$.
 
5:29 PM
@ACuriousMind Can I write the Lie transport equation $L_l\hat u=0$ as an ODE with initial condition $\hat u_p=u$ and somehow use the Star Trek: The Next Generation theorem to find a unique $\hat u$?
 
-5
Q: Where can I hire mathematician-researcher for gambling betting project?

VladResponsibility Processing, data analysis, stress testing, monitoring of statistical information; Construction of correlation, regression, and other models (checking of hypotheses); Creation of mathematical models for the data analysis and its prediction, carrying out experiments; Researching, de...

math overflow becomes the marketplace for borderline legal job offers
 
@ACuriousMind They pretty much always say distributions when they bother defining QFT
Or QM for that matter
 
to be performed in eastern european (almost) war zones
 
The whole Gelfland triple shebang
 
@yuggib I need an analysis theorem
 
5:34 PM
@Slereah it is not strictly related to quantum fields...
@0celo7 go on
 
No but that is usually what they use when defining them
 
5 mins ago, by 0celo7
@ACuriousMind Can I write the Lie transport equation $L_l\hat u=0$ as an ODE with initial condition $\hat u_p=u$ and somehow use the Star Trek: The Next Generation theorem to find a unique $\hat u$?
Does this work?
 
if you modify your (damned) geometric language a little bit I may help
 
Actually that won't work
@yuggib do you know what the Lie derivative is
 
you are looking for criteria to have existence and uniqueness of something like hamilton-jacobi equations of motion?
 
5:37 PM
I have a vector and I need a vector field which extends this vector subject to a constraint
 
the constraint being written in the form of an equation?
 
the constraint is that the vector field $\hat u$ (let's call it $v$) (which I need to prove exists) is invariant under the flow of another, $l$
and $v\rvert_p=u$
 
@0celo7 I don't think so, it doesn't look like an initial value problem to me.
 
so the constraint can be written as $L_lv=0$
@ACuriousMind yeah, I realized that
Is there some way to formulate it as an IVP?
 
@0celo7 I would say that there will always be at least one
and probably infinitely many
 
5:41 PM
@ACuriousMind What if I chose some curve $c$ and look at $L_{l\rvert_{c(t)}}v=0$
@yuggib All I need is one.
 
My "instinct" is by just defining $\hat{u}$ to be $u$ shifted along the flow, but that defined a field only along the integral curve through $p$, not on the whole $\Sigma$.
 
Shifted along the flow?
 
@0celo7 That's possible, but then you get only $v$ along that curve, not off it.
 
In the same way we defined a left-invariant volume form on a Lie group?
 
@0celo7 By "shifting" I mean applying $\phi_{t\ast}$ to $u$ to get the value of $\hat{u}$ at $\phi_t(p)$.
 
5:45 PM
Yeah, ok.
 
But, as I said, that defines the field only along $\phi_t(p)$
 
But the flow is a local diffeomorphism, right?
 
Yes, it is.
 
Integral curves can or can't cross?
Can't.
@ACuriousMind Hmm, do I even need it to exist in an open set? All I need it for $\nabla_vl$ and $\nabla_lv$ to exist.
 
@ACuriousMind and $\phi_{t*}(\phi_{t*}u)=\phi_{t*}u$ for any $t$?
 
5:48 PM
(These are the connections along the embedding map.)
@yuggib I think he meant $-t$.
 
@0celo7 ^Yeah, that
Damn signs
 
@ACuriousMind even with a $-t$ I don't see the invariance...
 
@yuggib $\phi_{t\ast}\circ\phi_{s\ast} = \phi_{(t+s)\ast}$ and $\phi_{0\ast} = \mathrm{id}$.
@0celo7 What's now $\nabla_v$? And shall those exist in $p$ only or on the whole of $\Sigma$.
 
@ACuriousMind ok I see
then it's pretty straightforward to define one vector field
 
@ACuriousMind Uh it's the covariant derivative wrt. $v$?
With some extra crap about the embedding map that I'm ignoring.
As for the second part, why? What if $v$ does not exist on the entirety of $\Sigma$?
 
5:56 PM
@0celo7 Then for $\nabla_l v$ to exist you need to have $v$ in a neighbourhood. Are we on a Riemannian manifold?
 
Semi-Riemannian.
 
:26755610 I confused Umgebung with Umwelt :P
 
Ah.
$\Sigma$ is a null hypersurface...but I'm not sure that's too important.
$\nabla$ is the Levi-Civita connection.
What I need to show is that $[\nabla_lv-\nabla_vl]_p=0$ for some $v$
So for the cov. derivatives to be defined I need some vector field extension of $u=v|_p$
@ACuriousMind The end result is that $\langle \nabla_ll,u\rangle=0$
@ACuriousMind But if I work with covariant derivatives along curves I don't need the vectors to exist in a neighborhood...just along a curve segment, right?
 
@0celo7 can't you just define $v$ to be $\phi_{t*}(u)$ on the points $\phi_{t}(p)$ for any $t\in\mathbb{R}$, and zero on any other point?
 
Yeah, I guess that works.
 
6:10 PM
That would not be a $C^1$ field
You said it has to be at least $C^1$ :P
 
I'm pretty sure it only needs to be $C^1$ along the integral curve.
Or am I mixing up things now?
 
Ah, carry on, then
 
@ACuriousMind if you want it to be globally $C^1$ you need to be sure that trajectories do not overlap with different values
 
I definitely do not need it globally.
Just take some "small" nbhd $U\subset\Sigma$.
@ACuriousMind Since this part of the proof is super pedantic anyway, I might as well be pedantic.
I have some curve $c(t)$ which is an integral curve of $l$ through $p$.
I have vector field $v$ which has value $u$ at point $p$.
 
are you assured that given another curve $k(t)$ which is an integral curve through $q$ they do not overlap?
 
6:14 PM
@ACuriousMind For $\nabla_lv$ to exist, is it enough that $v$ exists along $c(t)$?
@yuggib Take $U$ small enough so that this does not happen.
 
@yuggib What? My point would've been this isn't $C^1$ because it is non-zero along a curve and zero everywhere else, that doesn't look very differentiable or even continuous to me.
 
@0celo7 it is not guaranteed in general, even for very small neighbourhoods
 
@yuggib If it's a local diffemorphism how can it cross?
There has to be a nbhd where it's bijective.
 
@ACuriousMind yes yes, I know...I was thinking about something else
 
Maybe I'm making a stupid mistake, can someone please expain why $v_{\phi_t(p)}=\phi_{-t\ast}u$ is invariant under flows?
 
6:24 PM
you have to define it like that for any $t$
 
Yeah?
 
then acting with the flow on the global vector field you just shift each point to another one of the flow and so the global vector field is unchanged?
 
@yuggib So what is $\phi_{s\ast}v_{\phi_t(p)}$
$s\ne t$
 
$\phi_{s*}v_{\phi_t(p)}=v_{\phi_{s-t}(p)}$
the idea is that the vector field is defined as $\{v_{\phi_t(p)},t\in\mathbb{R}\}$
 
@yuggib Now take the derivative wrt. $s$ and set $s=0$. What happens?
 
6:30 PM
so acting with the flow with fixed $s$ you get simply a pointwise shift that does not change the overall field
 
Yes but we have not shown that this is a flow-invariant field.
 
do you agree that $\{v_{\phi_t(p)},t\in\mathbb{R}\}=\{v_{\phi_{s-t}(p)},t\in\mathbb{R}\}$?
 
Yes.
 
then, since $\phi_{s*}v=\{v_{\phi_{s-t}(p)},t\in\mathbb{R}\}$ you have invariance
 
My definition of invariance is that $L_lv=0$, and I'm not convinced of that.
 
6:33 PM
pointwise, you have a shift, but globally you have invariance
if $v=\{v_{\phi_t(p)},t\in\mathbb{R}\}$ (and zero otherwise)
and $\phi_{s*}v=\{v_{\phi_{s-t}(p)},t\in\mathbb{R}\}$ (zero otherwise)
then $\phi_{s*}v=v$ for any $s$, i.e. the field is invariant
 
Halt! The minus is wrong! :D
 
:D
 
Stop right there criminal scum! The minus is wrong!
 
If we want to send the vector $u$ at $p$ to $\phi_t(p)$, then we need to apply $\phi_{t\ast} : T_p \to T_{\phi_t(p)}$.
Then, $(\phi_{s\ast}v)_{\phi_t(p)} = v_{\phi_s(\phi_t(p))}$, so the field is invariant.
 
ok, so it's with a plus
but the idea is unchanged
 
6:41 PM
great
book collection +4
@ACuriousMind is it
What about the Lie derivative?
Can someone show that explicitly, I'm confused.
 
@0celo7 Uh, yes, $(\phi_\ast v)_p = v_{\phi(p)}$ is the definition of being invariant under a flow.
 
@ACuriousMind Is it?
 
Yes.
 
My lit textbook is 2800 pages long.
I hope I don't have to read all of it...or anything close to all of it...
 
It's what being invariant means: It doesn't matter whether you take the vector field at one point and just push it along the flow to another point or if you look up its value at the target point.
 
6:47 PM
That's not even including the 600+ pages of actual literature!
wtf?!
@ACuriousMind You still never answered chat.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/26756189#26756189
 
@0celo7 I think so, yes
 
@ACuriousMind Ok, thanks
 
7:09 PM
@dmckee My goodness that hit close to home.
 
@DanielSank then stop doing piddly slipshod coding
 
@0celo7 Your hint was to use Jacobi's formula, but that didn't work for me. Does it work for you?
 
@Bass I have no clue what Jacobi's formula is, so I doubt I told you to use it...
Unless it's some equation for which I just don't know the name
 
Dec 25 '15 at 19:17, by Bass
Jacobi's formula?
Dec 25 '15 at 19:17, by 0celo7
yes, that works
 
Christmas day?
Dude I knocked back a fifth of Jim Beam on Christmas
Can't blame me for not having a perfect recollection ;P
 
7:20 PM
@0celo7 no problem ;)
 
Do you understand the MSE answer that guy left, @Bass
(for Europeans, a fifth is 750mL)
(I think)
 
@0celo7 Not really when just reading it, but I didn't yet really sit down to like, trying to understand it on paper.
Gonna do that soon.
Do you understand it?
 
if it's confusing I'll leave a more complete answer
@Bass Yeah
I'd rather leave my own answer than explain his
 
yep that's cool of course!
thanks
 
So think about his some more and let me know
@Bass Actually, I'm leaving my own answer so I can look it up in the future :P
 
7:27 PM
Do that :)
 
so at least I will understand it
@Bass do you know how to declare a new operator in SE TeX
like I want \operatorname{det}
@ACuriousMind I know you know
but I want to just write \det
 
10
A: Should we indicate the use of \renewcommand in the help center?

Chris WhiteAbsolutely not. In fact, \renewcommand really shouldn't be used at all. Why? Because the title, question, answers, and comments on a page are not in separate MathJax environments. If you use \renewcommand (or even \newcommand, though that's not quite as bad) you risk clobbering others' contribu...

 
@ACuriousMind danke mama ente
 
7:43 PM
@Bass this is going to take a while, I'm messing with signs now
the standard proof glosses over the fact that the log as you wrote it is undefined
well, defined, but not real
 
no hurry
 
@Bass basically the ln det g thing is sorta wrong
because det g is negative
so I'm trying to prove something for ln(-det g)
@ACuriousMind Is $\log M$ real iff $M$ is positive definite?
 
@0celo7 I suppose yes, because all eigenvalues are positive.
 
@Bass yeah I'm trying to be super pedantic about the one negative eigenvalue of the metric
(if anything to satisfy my own curiosity)
 
the metric might not be positive definite
 
7:52 PM
it's negative definite
that's why we have $\sqrt{-\det g}$ for the volume measure
 
@0celo7 it can be nd. It can be pd. It can be neither.
 
negative definite is when all eigenvalues are negative
oops
in any case, the determinant is negative
 
@0celo7 yep
@0celo7 note that my question does not deal with one specific metric (you seem to have Minkowski in mind)
 
@Bass hmm
there's a theorem
@ACuriousMind Something something law of inerta?
 
Sylvester's
 
7:55 PM
Yeah, doesn't that mean a semi-Riemannian metric always has negative determinant?
Or am I going nuts
 
@0celo7 A Lorentzian metric always has negative determinant. "Semi-Riemannian" or "pseudo-Riemannian" geometry usually doesn't fix the signature.
 
@ACuriousMind I mean Lorentzian
And that's due to Sylvester?
@ACuriousMind also, I've corrected @Slereah on the terminology before, now I'm making the mistake
 
Terminology is for chumps
Wait, what about (+--)
It has a positive determinant
Is it not Lorentzian
 
so?
Lorentz has a negative determinant
@Bass do you want me to explain why the metric determinant is negative in my post
 

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