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vzn
12:49 AM
@EmilioPisanty it would help if you took me off ignore if you want to talk to me, otherwise, am going to regard it as mere posturing... as for "scientific discussions," think they are not always really encouraged here... :|
 
12:59 AM
Trying to solve a puzzle to do with monotone maps. This should be interesting hehe
Have to learn new modes of thinking
 
vzn
@0celo7 lol maybe 1 designated scapegoat will have some small )( benefit eg deflecting attn to/ on any others :P
 
 
1 hour later…
2:26 AM
@Abcd I don't recall hearing the mesomeric effect with the free descriptor. How does your book describe the interaction?
 
Hmm....
This inspired me something: It is easy to understand how time can be emergent from space, but how would space emerge from time?
Is it when geometric relationships became in dependent of time and thus this can be treated as the rise of bidirectionality
I need to think more about how Lorentz transformation rotate space to time and view versa and how to interpret the cross terms of some complicated metrics
 
3:02 AM
Section 9 should be relevant, I hope
 
Nice. Thanks.
The frustrating part is that I googled around for a while without stumbling onto that.
 
@dmckee I just googled "horizontal branch absolute magnitude" and it was the first result, haha
 
3:18 AM
Uhg. I don't know all the jargon.
Presumably expressions like [Fe/H] and [M/H] relate to the composition (abundance of iron or metals relative hydrogen] or the spectrum [strength of absorption lines]. But which one?
OK. Looks like that is abundance, but as compared to the same ratio for the sun and logarithmatic. Typical, but at least its comprehensible.
 
@dmckee Yeah, M/H is the ratio of metals to hydrogen if I recall, Fe/H is just more specific
 
I did take a structure and evolution of stars course in college, but there are many details I haven't look at in decades.
It's coming back but I have to keep checking things.
 
3:36 AM
@dmckee Well, you could always pick an arbitrary number
 
4:29 AM
Non Einsteinian black holes can disguise as Einsteinian ones
meanwhile, when will they finish analysing that black hole photo?
This = win
 
5:32 AM
@Secret As I said its not given in any of my books. My teacher spoke of it but it was the 4th hour of chemsitry class on the same day so it was impossible to absorb everything. Anyway I noted this example:
its $\ce{CH3-C+(-OH) - CH2-Ph }$
@Secret he told something related to "lone pair on oxygen"
 
5:51 AM
This system is not conjugated between Ph and O atom, how could there be a mesomeric effect?
Even if I arrow push the lone pair at OH, it will not trigger another arrow pushing at the C+ centre
 
@Secret maybe thats what Free meso effect is?
 
But that's not really a mesomeric effect, as there's no conjugation. I think I need more context on this. Ask your teacher how is this a mesomeric effect if there are no conjugation
 
@Secret Isn't overlap of p orbital on C and lone pair of Oxygen conjugation?
 
You need at least two double bonds side by side to have a conjugated system
and even if OH- C+ get arrow pushed to +HO=C, it is two single bonds away from Ph
 
6:58 AM
this seems interesting
 
7:08 AM
"In 2 dimensions, however, the only Lorentz invariant measure on the positive light cone (the mass shell for zero mass) is the Dirac measure concentrated at p = 0. As a consequence, the standard construction breaks down, which often is interpreted as saying that the massless scalar field in 2 dimensions does not exist. Indeed, the Wightman axioms cannot be satisfied, and also the Osterwalder-Schrader axioms for the euclidean version cannot be fulfilled."
whaaat
 
My bot for delivering electric shocks to anyone linking direct to the PDF is almost complete :-)
 
You can never stop true evil
 
<<<ZAP!!>>>
Damn, still buggy.
 
what is connection between the Hausdorff dimension and the specral dimension?
 
I dunno
 
7:17 AM
sorry, I mean the spectral dimension. I spelt wrong spectral above.
 
And @DavidZ closed yet another question about solid state physics (diamonds).
 
8:05 AM
@JohnRennie Morning!
SO finally got around to shipping your swag to me
 
Morning
 
Will be here Tuesday
 
@BernardoMeurer Cool :-)
 
Right in time for my birthday (30th) :P
 
I would have placed odds on it never turning up a all :-)
 
8:05 AM
So I guess that'll count as your gift :D
 
Happy Stack Overflow birthday
 
Hehehe, thanks :)
 
hey did you see my post about MS releasing the source for File Manager? A pull request of mine for an update to the source is about to be accepted :-)
 
Wat
Link!
MS is getting weirder and weirder
 
8:07 AM
They even have an Azure product shipping a Linux kernel!
 
I know, I just saw that too. Someone asked on the Skeptics SE if it was really true :-)
 
Lol
SpheroOS or whatever it's called
 
This is not your father's Microsoft
 
And this winfile thing is cute :)
I have to say I'm a little skeptical of "Open" MS
But so far so good
 
Explorer really annoys me in lots of little ways. I'm really pleased to have File Manager back.
 
8:10 AM
I used to use File Manager on my first computer
A Windows 98 laptop!
Oh!
I forgot to tell you John!!
I got a job over the summer!
 
Excellent. One of your first choices?
 
Yeah! First one in fact, at Standard Cognition
 
That's got to be an amazing chance to do some leading edge stuff :-)
I guess the car people binned you off then?
 
It is! And the people there are super cool as well
Actually no!
I passed the interview
But Standard made me a very generous offer, so I took it right away
 
@BernardoMeurer wow, just goes to show how hard it can be to tell how an interview has gone.
 
8:16 AM
Yeah!
 
I haven't done any cool coding recently ...
The nuclear energy guys got back to me and said the app is great but we need some changes, and by the way we don't have any budget left to pay for them.
I said that's a shame :-)
 
Lol
Gotta love those
 
The problem is the changes they've suggested are a really good idea so now I'm itching to do them anyway.
If I get bored I'll probably do the changes and stash it just in case they find some extra budget.
 
Hehehe
I will need tips from you for actually working
I've never worked proper with software dev
 
Neither have I to be honest or at least I've never worked in team like you will be. I'm strictly a lone wolf hacker.
But from talking to friends it's very different to just hacking in your bedroom. To stop the code descending into chaos requires a lot of discipline. Just go along with however they do things.
 
8:35 AM
@BernardoMeurer Congratulations
@BernardoMeurer I've worked in large teams, small teams, and individually. And I have no idea what to tell you.
 
@JohnRennie Yeah idk how well I'll perform
 
Get familiar with the concepts behind source control, if you're not already.
 
8:59 AM
@DawoodibnKareem I have some git foo
 
That'll do the trick.
And don't get too worked up if the code base doesn't look the way you'd like it to. It never does.
 
@JohnRennie so this physics.stackexchange.com/questions/399266/… is me taking a page from your book
-1
Q: Dynamic of a bent sheet of paper

Jacques MardotTake a standard printer sheet of paper (dimension $L \times H$ say), wrap the sheet of paper around a cylinder of radius $r$ so that the sheet of paper takes its form. Now put the sheet of paper down on a table and hold it by the two sides, then leave one side: you can remark that the sheet of pa...

@JR as I recall you had an answer to something similar? folded clothes and ironing, maybe?
 
9:31 AM
@EmilioPisanty aha, to avoid the dupehammer :-)
@EmilioPisanty I don't think I've answered anything like that, however I remember Motl answering a similar question.
Ah Motl's answer has already been linked.
 
That's a surprisingly good answer from Lubos
 
Hello !😊
 
Morning :-)
(morning in the UK at least)
 
9:47 AM
Morning John.
:)
It's 3:17 pm here, with a soaring 38 degrees Celsius temperature :(
 
today is mildly warm
 
Warmest day of the year so far :-)
 
Real feel is worse. Humid 😢
 
66% RH in the UK, or at lest in my living room.
 
177 degree C is pretty warm I'd say, yes
 
9:50 AM
17.7
 
@BalarkaSen you've missed the point :-)
 
if that's a decimal then i'm a jellyfish
 
We have an above 80 RH today
 
@BalarkaSen You coelenterate you :-)
 
@BalarkaSen xD.
@JohnRennie $xD^2$
 
9:52 AM
(is that how you spell coelenterate??? - ah, yes, Google agrees, phew :-)
 
Hey John, Einstein's equations are time reversal invariant, right? (Did I get that phrase correctly btw?)
 
@YuzurihaInori Yes (yes)
But then so are all equations in physics, so GR is nothing special in this respect.
 
Cool. Then how do we explain the non-observance of white holes?
 
@0celo7 The start of a friendship:
Jan 8 '16 at 21:16, by 0celo7
@BernardMeurer Lol?
Jesus it's been two years
 
@YuzurihaInori Have you got a few minutes? I need to talk around some related background ...
 
9:55 AM
Time sure flies by
 
@JohnRennie I will be right back after my lunch. I will text when I come back. I would love to hear from you.
Gimme a few mins
 
OK. I'll be here for about another couple of hours.
I'm currently trying and failing to understand the Raychaudhuri equation
 
@JohnRennie big ball become small ball
 
I knew it was all balls really
 
That's the expansion
The shear is ball become flat ball
 
9:59 AM
if that's what happens to yo balls you need to see a doctor my dude
 
Can't fight gravity my friend
 
I was a dope baby
 
@JohnRennie is that second off-topic vote also from someone who wanted to avoid the dupehammer? if it gets closed as actual off-topic instead of geting dupe-linked then that'll be an epic fail.
 
That was me. I wanted to avoid the dupehammer too.
 
@BernardoMeurer I might go to rio a couple days early
 
10:12 AM
@0celo7 I am planning to be in Rio throughout the ICM
The people at my internship already gave it an OK
 
@BernardoMeurer my friend knows Tao and he doesn’t drink
 
Dammit
 
So that won’t be happening
 
Our plan is ruined
 
@BernardoMeurer aryan baby
Why are you up
I’ve got a paper outline to throw together, fml
 
10:17 AM
I'm finishing a paper
 
Went to friends for a drink and a cigar last night. Thought I could have enough self control to stay for an hour. Stayed for like 5 and am now dying help
 
and preparing to present my paper tomorrow
 
John, am back
 
Nicotine is so bad for you
 
My paper on DRM got selected for the student conference
Nicotine is great for you
 
10:18 AM
Oh god
You on DRM is a scary thought
 
The Raychaudhury equation you say? Read it a while back while studying the Area Theorem.
 
I might see Rebecca today, scary
 
Have you not read my essay on DRM?
Why are you seeing Reb?
 
There’s an awards thing
 
Haven't talked to her in forever
You getting an award?
 
10:19 AM
Yes
 
For what?
 
I haven’t seen her since
@BernardoMeurer a scholarship
 
@JohnRennie? You there ?
 
@YuzurihaInori Hi. Lunch over? :-)
 
10:22 AM
Yeah.
 
OK, black/white holes ...
 
"white"...
 
It'll turn out that they are the same thing :-)
 
@0celo7 So it was in Bredon all along, was it?
I have never read that book
 
When we say black hole we are generally referring to the spacetime geometry called the Schwarzschild metric. This is what gets taught to students in their first course on GR.
 
10:25 AM
@BalarkaSen Well, according to the MO question you can take the guy to be connected when $n\ge 3$, which is very interesting
but that's not in Bredon
 
@YuzurihaInori I guess you've heard of this even if you haven't studied it in detail. yes?
 
any idea how to get it?
 
@JohnRennie Agreed. And about them being same, all I have read is that they are mathematically the same. But physically, they represent different objects ( if I am not wrong ).
And I have read the Schwarzchild metric in details. So the maths won't hurt.
 
@YuzurihaInori students normally learn about black holes using the Schwarzschild coordinates. These are (at first sight) simple because they look just like regular polar coordinates. We have a radial component $r$ and the two angles $\theta$ and $\phi$.
 
@JohnRennie My GR talk was so good I convinced the prof to get HE
 
10:29 AM
@JohnRennie And then to eliminate the coordinate singularity at $r=2M$, we introduce new coordinates and get the Kruskal extension.
 
@YuzurihaInori you're way ahead of me :-)
And we find that in the KS coordinates there is another region of the spacetime that the Schwarzschild coordinates were concealing from us.
 
Okay, then?
 
In addition to our universe and the black hole there is a parallel universe and a white hole.
And this is what we mean by a white hole. It's the past horizon in the maximally extended Schwarzschild spacetime.
But ...
The Schwarzschild geometry is an idealised geometry that doesn't actually exist.
 
@0celo7 What is $n$, dimension or codimension? This is false in many cases, eg consider the homology class $\alpha$ of $H^1(T^2; \Bbb Z)$ given by the meridian of the torus. $2\alpha$ cannot be represented by a connected embedded submanifold of $T^2$.
 
@JohnRennie Come again? I thought this is a very good metric for non rotating, non charged black holes?
 
10:33 AM
Just looked up the MO question. It's about $H_1(M)$ with $\dim M \geq 3$.
 
@YuzurihaInori The Schwarzschild geometry is time independent meaning it must have existed for an infinite time and continue to exist into the future for an infinite time.
 
@BalarkaSen til $T^2$ is 3-dimensional
 
@JohnRennie Eternal blackholes?
 
@YuzurihaInori It is a good approximation for real black holes, but only an approximation.
 
@0celo7 That's why I asked what is $n$ you raccoon
 
10:34 AM
$n$ is only ever the dimension of the manifold
what psycho would have it be anything else
 
Then we need the full power of the Kerr metric?
 
Big if true
 
for your example, you take $2\alpha$ to be repped by a disconnected thing
 
@YuzurihaInori no, the Kerr metric is the same. It too can only describe an eternal (rotating) black hole, so no Kerr black holes actually exist either.
 
two slighly shifted circles
 
10:35 AM
oriented in the same direction, correct
 
@YuzurihaInori The point is that real black holes are not decsribed by the Schwarzschild or Kerr geometries.
 
let me ponder why this doesn't happen in dim 3 and onwards...
 
Then what? I thought the general Kerr metric is the only solution possible for black holes.
 
They'd be described by something like the Oppenheimer-Snyder metric.
@YuzurihaInori it's the only pssible solution for eternal black holes.
But real black holes aren't eternal.
 
@JohnRennie That's new. I don't remember it being mentioned in Wald. Is it a recent find?
 
10:37 AM
No, that's the same Oppenheimer who headed the atomic bomb project in WWII.
 
@0celo7 optical index
 
Found it. In Gravitation
 
The Oppenheimer-Snyder metric dates back to the 60s.
 
So what is the connected thing that represents $2\alpha$ in $T^3$, say, where $\alpha$ is a meridian of the coordinate 2-torus in $T^3$? Hmmm
 
@Slereah only a psycho does optics
 
10:39 AM
You can do optical limit GR for gravitational lensing
 
@BernardoMeurer we are probably gonna have a party with marques tho
 
Then spacetime acts as an optical index
If you have an ultrastatic spacetime, anyway
 
then $n$ is being used as the dimension of the manifold already
 
@JohnRennie Okay, what do they predict?
 
You can use $d$
 
10:40 AM
now that's the true mark of psychopathy
it's n for dimension
 
@YuzurihaInori what we find it that the parallel universe and white hole exist only for eternal black holes. Real black hole geometries have neither parallel universes nor white holes. I was massively disappointed when I first learned this :-)
 
It's n for optical i$n$dex
@JohnRennie you're assuming the initial conditions of the universe there!
There could be horizons straddling two causally disconnected pieces of spacetime
 
@Slereah I was there - I'm that old
 
@JohnRennie Point me somewhere good where I can study this metric more. Geometry, initial value problems, exercises
 
@YuzurihaInori Wald
Or Carroll
 
10:43 AM
@YuzurihaInori the Oppenheimer Snyder metric?
 
@JohnRennie Yes
 
Oh neither of those have OS
I'm not sure what book does
 
Probably in Stephani
 
Stephani maybe
Best bet is to look at some papers really
Wait
 
@YuzurihaInori to be honest it's not studied that much because it's actually pretty boring.
 
10:44 AM
What about that awful book you linked once @0celo7
About black hole collapse analysis
 
Wald doesn't have. MTW has a small discussion, not much.
 
I forget the name
 
That won't have exact metrics
 
Oh, I see. $T^3$ has three coordinate torii in it, the xy, xz and yz-torus. The x-circle is $\alpha$, so push it in the xz-torii a little bit and then the xy-torus a little bit. Now introduce an X between them, which can be done without intersection because it's dimension 3 my dude.
 
Didn't Chandrasekar write a big book on black holes
Might be there
 
10:45 AM
@YuzurihaInori It's constructed by patching together the FLRW and Schwarzschild geometries. So inside the collapsing star (or whatever) it looks like a collapsing universe and outside it looks like Schwarzschild.
 
And at present I don't have any other GR books. ( Dad says they are too heavy for an 18 year old )
 
He did indeed
I should have that book, but I don't
It has been on my amazon wish list for years
 
@YuzurihaInori He's probably worried about you hurting your back lifting them :-)
 
@JohnRennie That's what MTW said qualitatively, but to say no to white holes, there must be maths
@JohnRennie I don't lift them xD
 
@YuzurihaInori you have MTW, that book is literally too heavy
 
10:47 AM
But the info is cool
 
@YuzurihaInori well, you can take the OS metric and run time backwards. You can do that with any solution in GR, which is where you started. So an OS geometry run backwards would be a white hole.
 
Wald lost me on the geometry part, MTW is actually almost poetic on the geometries
 
What is there in Wald besides geometry
 
@JohnRennie But maybe, time doesn't flow. Forwards or backwards ( quoting from your answer ), maybe it's all in our heads
 
@YuzurihaInori But remember that there are always two parts to solving differential equations, including the Einstein equation, there's the solution and the initial conditions.
 
10:49 AM
@0celo7 Idunno! Physics?
 
@JohnRennie it would be a white hole evaporating
Or exploding
 
@JohnRennie You mean, exact solutions and initial value problems?
 
Making a white hole would be more Vaidya backward
 
The OS metric has a ball of gas above some critical density as it's initial condition, and ... well ... that seems a perfectly plausible initital condition because we see balls of gas everywhere we look in the universe.
But to get an evaporating white hole (Sam is of course correct as usual :-) we would have to have a very strange set of initial conditions indeed.
 
@JohnRennie Doesn't a White hole evaporate by definition?
 
10:52 AM
Time reversing solutions is a bad idea generally
 
@YuzurihaInori no
 
Because physics isn't time symmetric
 
White holes are time independent remember
 
I mean, as polar opposites of black holes, they should eject, and only eject. So obviously they leak continuously
 
@YuzurihaInori there's another minor detail we don't tel students for fear of melting their brains.
 
10:53 AM
@0celo7 I have le construction. Say you have two disjoint loops $\gamma_1 \cup \gamma_2$ (oriented counterclockwise) representing the class $\alpha \in H_1(M)$. Introduce a path $\sigma$ from $p \in \gamma_1$ to $q \in \gamma_2$ and take a strip neighborhood $U$ around $\sigma$ which hits $\gamma_i$ on little arcs $A_1$ and $A_2$ around $p$ and $q$.
Let $\sigma_1$ and $\sigma_2$ be two paths with endpoints in $A_1$ and $A_2$, lying inside $U$, such that they intersect (so they look like an "X") and orient them so $\gamma_1 \cup \sigma_1 \cup \gamma_2 \cup \sigma_2$ is an immersed loop inter
 
Only they gobble up sometimes. (;_;)
 
@YuzurihaInori Black holes contain no matter.
 
@JohnRennie Try me
 
@YuzurihaInori They are vacuum solutions.
 
If you time reverse a realistic scenario, your retarded waves become advanced waves
Bad sign
 
10:53 AM
@JohnRennie I agree. After reading your answers everywhere on this site, I have agreed to this viewpoint.
 
@JohnRennie wot
 
@Slereah Causality issues
 
@YuzurihaInori In the Schwarzschild metric the stress-energy tensor is everywhere zero.
So how can a white hole eject anything, when it does not contain anything?
 
@JohnRennie You're right. Now that you mention it...
 
@BalarkaSen what?
 
10:55 AM
The point of a white hole is that you cannot enter it.
 
@JohnRennie this reminds me of the Kanye line with the bleached ***hole
 
@JohnRennie So interior solutions are meaningless to talk about?
@0celo7 Hmmm... (;O;)
 
@0celo7 O O --> O) (O --> O> <O --> OXO --> $\gamma$
 
At the horizon of a black hole you cannot avoid falling into it while at the horizon of a white hole you cannot resist being pushed away from it.
 
Its an easy construction
 
10:56 AM
I know what you're trying to do
 
The point is any class in $H_1(M)$, regardless of $M$, can be represented by an immersed loop. Make that immersed loop transverse to itself; if $\dim M \geq 3$ you're an embedded loop
 
But I also don't know how this solves the problem
I'm trying to represent $H_{n-1}$, what does $H_1$ have to do with anything
 
@YuzurihaInori well this is where it gets kind of philosophical. The maths is fine and that tells us the geometry inside both white and black hole horizons. The question is whether in this regime the maths has any physical relevance.
 
@JohnRennie I suffer remember sth. There's also an argument that says that white holes cannot form naturally (there are no known mechanisms)
@JohnRennie The line blurs and we stop doing the physics?
 
@BalarkaSen I think $H_1$ being repped by something immersed is not hard -- take a corresponding rep of $\pi_1$ and perturb it to be self-transversal.
 
10:58 AM
@0celo7 idk man you told me to look at the MO post, which says any class in $H_1(M)$ for $\dim M \geq 3$ can be represented by an embedded submanifold.
 
The MO post is about $H_{n-1}$.
Using $H_{n-1}\cong H^1\cong [M,S^1]$.
 
@YuzurihaInori Consider this: we know that it takes an infinite coordinate time for an object falling intyo a Schwarzschild blavk hole to even reach the horizon let alone pass through it.
 
It clearly says $H_1$ in the third point in Paul's answer. You were asking for connected representatives
 
Literally what are you talking about
 
@JohnRennie Yes?
 
10:59 AM
@0celo7 Modulo work, yes. The point is any class in $H_1$ can be represented by a map from a 1-simplicial cmplex
 

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