@EmilioPisanty that's quite interesting; given that I have been using several of those phrases to mean just what they should mean (which is the literal meaning, not the brit), I wonder if the interpretation also works in the reverse direction? i.e. the interpretations work in the brit --> anyone direction, but i guess they definitely don't work in the foreigner -->brit direction

If we considered the radius of atom, then the orbital wave functions of electrons should be changed?

I think this is not true because the electrostatic potential is not depending on the radius of nuclei.

I'm sorry I mean radius of nuclei..(It's of course not well-defined.. but.. Huh..)

In principle there is an effect related to the higher multipoles of the nucleus, but in practice the nucleus is very small, the the effect is strongly suppressed.

Ah. I see. Thanks.

Does Calculus on Manifolds sound like something important for GR

@SirCumference yes

@0celo7 That's the first math class I've ever heard you say "yes" to

because calculus on manifolds is what I do for a living

I am out of it

Sigh this means I have to fit it in to my schedule. Why isn't there an order to any of these courses

None of them seem to relate to each other, what prevents you from forgetting what you've learned if every semester is completely different?

what did you delete

I must know

Stupidity

But seriously how is anyone supposed to navigate this?

superior intelligence I guess. idk, what kind of quesiton is that

Well again, every math class is completely different from each other, so what prevents you from forgetting stuff after each class?

yeah, superior intelligence and study habits.

?? How am I supposed to remember anything I learn from Calculus on Manifolds if the next 1.5 years are spent not using it?

There's no "practice problems" to work with over that gap

And why are these classes offered in the most inconvenient semesters argh

Perhaps, but I don't think it'll last me that long

Especially considering how much other stuff I have to jam into my head by then

Who thought it was a good idea to make the order of the math major so wishy-washy

Navigating this is more confusing than the actual math

Putting in Calc on Manifolds means getting rid of either Intro to Topology or Intro to DiffGeo, both classes I've been told are helpful for GR

Topology and geometry are at the same time?

@0celo7 Wait, actually just Differential Geometry

Manifolds is a fall class

I'm confused. Are you confused?

Yes

Either I pick Intro to Differential Geometry or I pick Calculus on Manifolds

Then clearly one is meant to be taken before the other.

They both only require Calc III

There's no clear order to any of this

Lol what kind of shit geometry class is that. Must be curves and surfaces

@0celo7 Er, yes

I thought it'd go to higher dimensions, but guess not

But hey, it introduces tensors, which is cool I guess

tensors are just matrices

I'll learn them when I get to them

But now I have to choose between two classes that are good for GR...

yeah it is a bit stupid that those two are concurrent

you should be able to take both

Pretty sure everything in the Math major only relies on Calc III and/or Linear Algebra, with the obvious exception of Analysis II and Algebra II. The only other exception is PDE (Analysis I I think)

@EmilioPisanty Actually, "That's not bad " is in common use enough that (with the correct speech tone) actually means what the British means

Why are you even taking undergraduate courses

@0celo7 I can, but it'd be hard when I already have 15 credits set up in my schedule for that semester...

19 credits of Math/Physics/Comp Sci courses is a pain

@SirCumference so they're not at the same time? What on Earth are you complaining about?

@0celo7 They are in the same semester

Oh shoot I forgot to check the times...

As they should be!

Nope, they're not at the same time

More precisely: "That's not bad" in this tone pattern C----- F,----- F#GAbA

But now I have to make sure no classes in my schedule overlap...

@0celo7 19 credits of STEM is a pain

@SirCumference #20creditsmasterrace

._.

actually 21 but w/e god damn scheduling

Of pure STEM?

one philosophy class

hardest one tho

Huh, I thought philosophy classes were easy. Though I've only taken one (Mathematical Logic)

it's a lot of reading

time to write another page of this blasted thesis

NO

One of my classes overlaps with both of those math classes

wot

Wait no, Quantum Mech 1 overlaps with DiffGeo but is on a different date from Manifolds

Ugh

how about you figure this out before freaking out here

Good idea...

@Blue I'm dying in Algebra

So many goddamn terms

@Blue are you trolling?

@Blue I'm not taking QM right now

Oh linear

I thought you meant abstract

If QM is just linear algebra for you, you had a shit class

@Blue In what world??

American physics students are not comfortable with linear algebra

@0celo7 what

Compared to who?

Germans

My honors/math linear was pretty rigorous

I just wish I'd taken it before Calc III and Diff Eq, everything was a confusing mess in my head for a while

Of QM?

Anyone remember when things were simple

Like 1600s

Good times

@SirCumference I too enjoyed witch trials

@SirCumference you're being cringey

@diobuceulb Sigh, you're food at math, right?

Topology or Diffgeo first

you dummy i don't know your university's syllabus

if your diff geo course doesn't require topology as a prereq then you can take either it doesn't matter. but the manifolds course will probably require one of those as a prereq.

@diobuceulb Nope, it doesn't. And I'd say "screw it" and take them in random order, but according to the course evaluations topology really expects you to be strong with Algebra II

what is algebra II

"Field theory, linear algebra over a field, field extensions, etc."

"Algebraic closure of a field, Galois theory"

what a weird course

It also apparently expects you to be good with Analysis I, which I haven't taken

and no you don't need that for intro topology

it doesn't really need many prereqs because intro undergrad topology is just point set topology

it's not uncommon for math/physics students to not take undergrad topology at all

because you learn the relevant topological concepts in analysis and geometry courses anyway

Welp, the people who've taken the course say Algebra and Analysis knowledge are expected...

yeah ok then listen to them

Regardless, I presumably need to take Analysis I & II, Algebra I & II, then Topology, then DiffGeo, then Manifold Calc

But the semesters for which they are offered is fucked

before taking topology you should have taken 1d analysis and linear algebra if that's what they mean but it's mostly for experience with doing proofs and thinking mathematically

why do you need to take those?

you're doing astronomy

@diobuceulb "Prospective students should have a strong grasp of the concepts learned in Algebra II and Analysis I and should be comfortable with abstract algebra."

@diobuceulb General relativity

The ultimate science

yeah i have no idea why you would need algebra for an intro topology course that doesn't do algebraic topology or other stuff

Aw wtf

Can things just be straightforward...?

hey want to kill ourselves

Um, are you ok?

yes

Is that a...dark joke?

it's a blue joke

...

That was a little out of place

if i had a blueberry for every time this year that someone told you that you don't need any of those math courses to take or do GR after you repeatedly asking i'd have like 7 blueberries.

@diobuceulb Welp I've asked other cosmology grad student and they say real and complex analysis, at the very least, are important

If only these course orders were as linear as...idk I can't make a good math joke when I'm tired

@SirCumference no they're not if it's offered by the physics department

@diobuceulb They're not offered by the physics department

i'm not an expert in GR like others in the chat but I did basically fully attend a GR course almost 3 years ago and we didn't need anything other than vector calculus and linear algebra. +classical mechanics and electrodynamics

what is it then?

Oh GR? That's a graduate class at my uni

which department?

Physics, but what's your point?

my point is that if it's a physics grad course it won't require real and complex analysis or topology and differential geometry.

it will require vector analysis and an advanced linear algebra course at best.

The grad students at my uni say it will...

Even @Slereah says

by real and complex analysis i think the grad student at your uni meant know how to do complex integrals and the basics of complex functions and also know how to do mathematical proofs at the level of someone taking real analysis.

that's not for intro level GR

I plan to do more than intro level in my career...

you won't do that kind of GR as an astrophysicist

As a cosmologist?

and if you do end up doing it for whatever reason you can pick it up on your own.

a cosmologist will yes

Welp, that's not what grad students are telling me

it depends what kind of cosmologist

I haven't decided what kind of cosmologist I want to be :/

theoretical cosmology yes but if you're just going to do cmb and computational stuff then no

but in that case you'd be a theoretical physicist basically

Well, I am leaning more to the theoretical (jobless) side

it's not jobless if you're good

Welp, I better get good

That starts with learning the math tho

if you take topology, differential geometry, real and complex analysis, abstract algebra, and manifolds before taking a grad level physics GR course you're going to hate it

Why? Math is cool, at least from what I've gotten to (Calc 3, Diff Eq, and LinAlg)

it won't be rigorous at all compared to the level of rigour you'd be used to from those courses

Abstract Algebra is a pain but it's bearable

and it will barely make use of any of the things you learned in them

dude you're weird

OK

what is the textbook for the course

@diobuceulb Wait what? These are proof-based classes

let's finish this once and for all

stop caring what everyone including me says you dummy figure it out for yourself

what is the fucking textbook lol

@diobuceulb amazon.com/First-Course-Abstract-Algebra-7th/dp/…

wow for GR...

What do you want from me...?

I sent the textbook

This is for Honors Algebra I

your GR course uses "a first course in abstract algebra" as its textbook?

This isn't my GR course, this is my Algebra course

I thought that's what you meant by "textbook"

Hold on, I'll figure out what the GR course uses

hello

welp, it's a fall course. I have to wait until the fall 2018 textbook catalog shows up till I can find the textbook

search for it on the internet

the course code and your university

it should be archived somewhere from before

I did, just got a link to our physics courses

what is the syllabus for it

,then

"Physics in curved spacetimes; the Schwarzschild and Kerr solutions of the Field Equations and properties of black holes; the Equivalence Principle; the Einstein Field Equations; Friedmann solutions and cosmology; gravitational wave propagation and generation; the post-Newtonian approximation and Solar System tests."

did you rearrange the order

because you did

How did you know?

because I took GR?

Yes, I don't want my university known.

If it's searched.

I know.

this isn't the first time you've done something like this lol

lol

it's impossible to find your university based on clues from the chat believe me.

you added in bits of falsified information over time.

Tbh though it's not like I'm necessary going to go to the same uni for grad school

@diobuceulb I don't think I've ever lied :P

though it's not like anybody freaking cares???

The three question marks are misplaced...

pretty sure everyone in this chat has revealed their university except you lol

Well yeah, no one says the stupid things I've said

yes they do

@SirCumference have you asked the person/people giving the course what they think?

@JohnRennie For GR or for the math courses?

@JohnRennie dude this is the 7th time he has had this conversation with by now basically every single person in this chat at least once.

@diobuceulb ??

@SirCumference If your long term aim is to ace the GR course, and the maths is just a means to an end, then I'd ask the people giving the GR course.

All I've asked before was whether to take topology or diffgeo first

@SirCumference yes like 3 times or more

@JohnRennie I don't know about "ace", but I want to truly understand it, since I'll be using it in my field

@diobuceulb Well now they threw in curveballs like expecting algebra and analysis first

@SirCumference GR is sooooooooooo much fun and I heartily endorse your desire to take it and do well.

I thought intro topology was a simple class, based on the word "intro"

@SirCumference because you beat it out of them...

But I do wonder if you are worrying unnecessarily about it.

you wouldn't stop until they said what you wanted to hear which was that you need all those math courses.

sheesh

@diobuceulb It was in the course evaluations...

well it was in the chat too

the evidence is there i saw it with my own eyes

@JohnRennie Hmm, well I doubt GR is the physics I'll use in my future, but in general I'm just trying to figure out the math courses I'll need for my career

@diobuceulb That intro topology requires algebra and analysis?

bye

What

@SirCumference look at ACM. He studied string theory then got a job with a firm (SAP) that does business management software. Honestly, stop worrying. If you really enjoy GR (and it is super-enjoyable,) then do it and stop worrying about the future.

@JohnRennie I mean, I guess. But it's now or never to take the courses :/

At this point I could just graduate with a math major too, I just don't know what order to take the classes

And I do sincerely enjoy the math

@SirCumference do what you enjoy doing.

When it comes to the sordid business of getting a job the employers won't care exactly what courses you took. They just want bright people.

I suppose. But of course, the courses can undoubtably prepare you for a career. And in general, they're just really interesting

If they are interesting that is an excellent reason for doing them.

Yeah, I just wish this process was more linear though :/

I'm confusing myself trying to figure out the order

Never again will you have the freedom to study what you like for the sole reason that you like it. Take advantage of that freedom while you have it :-)

@JohnRennie Hmm, I'll take that into consideration :)

And for the record, if you want to agonise about it here that's fine by me. It's all part of the fun :-)

Welp, I don't really have a better place to get advice regarding physics and math :/

You should probably disregard any career advice from me since my knowledge of academia is thirty years out of date, but I feel reasonably confident when I say that doing what you enjoy is generally a good way to do well :-)

@JohnRennie GR messes with people's minds badly.

@Sid GR is the single most elegant bit of physics I've ever learned. It involves a few mind mangling concepts, but once you've grasped the underlying principles it is just awesomely cool.

GR is awful

We all go through some form of that phase - some GR books use the word open set, therefore I must learn axiomatic differential topology first, but we grow out of it, Dirac's little GR book teaches you all the math you need in 15 pages

wow nice, never knew Dirac wrote a book about GR

and he calls it the "material energy tensor" very cool

@bolbteppa I still haven't :(