Goat Chat

DukeZhou

12:00 AM

might even bring in a Shortsword/Knives weapons class, like Legolas in LOTR

Greatsword/Sword/Shortsword

Maul/Hammer/Mace (here maul a huge club with a rock attached. Hammer is the most balanced)

Lance/Spear/Shortspear

Greatbow/Bow/Shortbow

Staff/Sceptre/Wand

Labrys/Greataxe/Axe (Labrys is the ancient name for a huge, bronze, double-edged axe!)

The Mattbat999

12:30 AM

1st and 2nd axe are epic looking. 3rd is ok.

The Mattbat999

12:43 AM

@DukaZhou so what should be the combat stats be? I already have intelegence (magic power), strength (polearm, axe, mace, hammer), and dexterity (dagger, sword, bow?, staff). What else should we add?

DukeZhou

1:18 AM

@TheMattbat999 Funny you say that. The third is the only realistic one, and what the Vikings actually used. But I know what you mean in terms of look. That third axe is what an Archer might wield as a secondary, incase they have to fight.

With high Accuracy attribute, that little axe can do the job. But, obviously, not great against a Tank.

The Mattbat999

@DukeZhou yeah. Alright, I have started stripping out chunks of code from the turn-based battle script and putting them into the pure freeroam scripts.

DukeZhou

but that's why you have Labrys/Greataxe/Handaxe

Characters would have to be incredibly strong to wield a Labrys well

so unless strength was a major attribute, they'd choose Greataxe. Still have to be strong for that, but not as much as Labrys.

The Mattbat999

Here is my question for you: Is strength and dexterity enough for normal weapons? Like strength covers big weapons and dexterity covers the small weapons and the bow?

DukeZhou

Handaxe, anyone can wield

I think we need 7 attributes

Maybe:

EARTH: Strength

WIND: Dexterity

Quickness

Vitality

Stamina

The Mattbat999

What is Vitality?

DukeZhou

1:23 AM

LIGHTNING: Accuracy

Vitality would be the Life attribute. Lifeforce energy

The Mattbat999

I mean, what would it do for combat?

DukeZhou

It determines how much energy you have to swing or cast

strength is how fast and strong for a given weapon based on the weapons weight and "wieldyness"

The Mattbat999

So.... here is how I think it could be: (give me a few minutes to complete list)

DukeZhou

but strength is different from vitality

@TheMattbat999 Look at the chart when you make the list

I personally think WIND: Dexterity: SWORD

The Mattbat999

@DukeZhou ok

DukeZhou

1:27 AM

and LIGHTNING : Accuracy : BOW

(partly because I'm a fencer;)

sword is definitely an Agility/Dexterity weapon

Axe is like a hammer with a blade

Hammer > Axe < Sword

Where you might have EARTH : Strength : Hammer

it might be ICE : Quickness : Axe

(Ice is a hard one to match to an attribute imo, as is the axe, but you do need some extra quickness to wield it against a lighter weapon such as sword or spear.)

And that handaxe would definitely quicker than a regular sword because it's so light

The Mattbat999

Idk, Ice is like the opposite of quickness, but lemme come up with what each stats does...

DukeZhou

yeah, ice is kinda the opposite of quickness

axe's prime quality is "splitting" but hard to fit that as an attribute

Water's another hard one. Not really a weapon for it (so I put the Grail meaning potions and regeneration.)

The Mattbat999

Strength- boost power for heavy weapons and allows for their use. Dexterity (replace spirit with dexterity?)- boost power for lighter weapons and allow their use.

DukeZhou

Maybe VIRIDITAS : Vitality is how much energy you have, and WATER : Regeneration

Regeneration is how fast you replenish you energy

Dexterity boosts use of every weapon, but the boost is much bigger for certain weapons, such as light weapons

So dexterity is a mega boost for a sword and bow and mace (lightest hammer)

and sword gets an extra boost if it is the Wind/Dexterity weapon

just like hammer would get the biggest boost from Strength

The Mattbat999

1:45 AM

Here is a list I created

List: 
Vitality- Max HP and SP 
Spirit- Max MP and spell power 
Regeneration- HP, SP, and MP regen 
Sharpness- How deadly bladed weapons are 
Strength- How well you use heavy weapons 
Accuracy- How deadly ranged weapons are 
Power- How deadly blunt weapons are 
Dexterity- How well you use lighter weapons

DukeZhou

that looks like a solid list. I think we need to refine the meaning of sharpness, in terms of an attribute a character has as opposed to a weapon quality. i.e. what is the metaphor for sharpness, applied to a human

maybe axes take more strategy, so it's like "sharp" in an intellectual sense

hmm... let me ponder

The Mattbat999

What about as another magic skill? Spirit and sharpness/intelegence

DukeZhou

@TheMattbat999 what is MP? mana?

and also SP

The Mattbat999

@DukeZhou basically. How many times you can use a spell. SP is stamina

DukeZhou

ahh, ST then for stamina

possibly:

EARTH: Strength : How quickly you wield a weapon based on weight & bonus damage modifier for Blunt weapons & range for shooting weapons.

ICE : Acuity : How well you wield any given weapon from a strategy standpoint. Bonus vs. defense and armor

WATER: Regeneration : How quickly you regain HP, MP, and Vitality

WIND: Dexterity : How agile you are with any give weapon. Grants attack and defense bonuses

VIRIDITAS: Vitality : How much energy you have to actually use, both physical and psychic (so energy for swinging weapons OR casting spells)

FIRE: Power : Damage modifier for Edged and Pointed weapons, can get quick vitality boosts (at a cost)

LIGHTNING: Accuracy : How likely you are to score a hit, and likelihood of critical hits

The Mattbat999

2:05 AM

May I change the list a little bit (nothing super major, mainly simplifications)?

DukeZhou

Sure. Just keep in mind you want to keep them as general as possible. It's a waste to have a stat that only influences Magic XOR Melee

Power is the one I'm finding most difficult, in distinguishing it from strenght

oooooh

Maybe power is Stamina!

The Mattbat999

Change name of power to fatigue and it would work

DukeZhou

no no no--it's exactly the because it's named Power that it is a measure of Stamina/Fatigue--remember, it's a spectrum between the two

The Mattbat999

Ok

DukeZhou

FIRE: Stamina : How quickly you lose Vitality (slower for high STA)

HP might be determined by three factors in order of importance: (1)Power (2)Strength (3)Vitality

MP might be determined by (1)Regeneration (2)Dexterity/Spirit (3)Vitality

But you could play with those combinations

The Mattbat999

2:22 AM

List: 
Strength / how much power you deal with melee weapons and slightly increases defense. 
Acuity/ how fast you swing your weapon, cast a spell, and raise your shield. 
Regeneration/ how fast HP, MP, and SP recover . 
Dexterity / how well you block and use a bow. Also increases shield stamina (how many times your shield can get hit before you get knocked back). 
Vitality / increases your max HP, MP, and Sp. Also reduces SP consumption. 
Intelegence (replaces power) / increases power dealt by spells. Also decreases MP consumption.

List finished. Hope it is good enough!

DukeZhou

I still feel like it could be more generalized. For instance, why is accuracy only a factor with range weapons? Doesn't it also help with hitting your target with sword, spear, or really, any weapon?

The effect might become more pronounced with range...

The Mattbat999

@DukeZhou that is more of your actual skill playing the game for melee, since I have tooken out the turned based mechanics.

DukeZhou

but I'm talking about actual hit chance. Like does every strike hit, or do they sometimes miss?

PS--I'm not sure you need an Intelligence stat. Power works even better for Spell damage

(i was kind of liking that Int wasn't a stat;)

but other than that, I think the list is adequate. Just if it was more generalize, it would make the experience more nuanced.

The Mattbat999

@DukeZhou it hits if they aren't blocking and the weapon touches them while swinging (also ridded of countering, though I guess sometimes a weapon can bounce off armor, though that isn't accuracy based)

DukeZhou

Like for instance, you could make an artificial limits for required strength to wield a greataxe or hammer, but it would be cooler if anyone could wield them, just the weaker the character is, the heavier the penalty (pun intended)

so it's really bad strategy for a low-STR character to wield a greataxe, where they could wield the handaxe (like as an Archer's backup melee weapon)

The Mattbat999

2:32 AM

(With the generalization thing, before I talked to you on this project, I was gonna have two stats at first:strength and intelegence for simplicity)

:P

DukeZhou

a normal-strong character might think they can wield the Labrys, but they'll still get a penalty. Only super-strong characters could really wield the Labrys effectively.

@TheMattbat999 re two stats, lol yeah

but 7 is a fairly conventional number of stats for an RPG, main difference is these actually relate to the universal diagram

The Mattbat999

@DukeZhou I was thinking of doing kinda like Dark Souls 2 where if you don't meet the requirements, you get penalized for it)

DukeZhou

@TheMattbat999 that definitely works. It's a basic algorithm to determine penalty, based on weapon-weight modified by strenght

The Mattbat999

@DukeZhou yes. I think I will go with my stat list I predented just a second ago. Do I have thy stamp of approval?

DukeZhou

I could definitely help you with the math on that.

I think it's definitely serviceable. Still, I'd keep Power for spell damage and MP consumption

so much better than Intelligence

The Mattbat999

2:36 AM

@DukeZhou Ok

I think I know what to do with the math on the penalty... basicallly the lower your strength compared to the requirements, the more is taken off

DukeZhou

that's essentially it

I usually like to throw that into a spreadsheet to see how it expresses

The Mattbat999

Draw one up real quick and let us see how it looks!

DukeZhou

Well to do that spreadsheet, I'd need all the weights on the weapons, and the range of STR as an attribute...

so maybe save that for another day, since I have to log off shortly

The Mattbat999

Oh, ok. I gotta get to work putting alll this stuff in anyway. See ya!

DukeZhou

Do me a favor--sleep on that stats list, and post me a formal, final list tomorrow. (That way I can integrate the ideas into the diagram)

The Mattbat999

2:41 AM

@DukeZhou ok

DukeZhou

good deal - I'll check in tomorrow after work!

DukeZhou

3:12 AM

Here's an idea for how casting could work, based on your idea of drawing patterns (which is a top-notch idea btw. It's been done in Infinity Blade quite successfully, and Infinity blade is definitely one of the top 2 swordfighting mechanics i've ever come across)

MAGIC PATTERNS:

It's all about tracing geometries within a given stroke. The spell depends on the topology-how many vertices, edges, and regions

We'd start out real simple, of course.

Like, what's a Triangle?

What's a Square?

What's a Circle?

I mean this as "what are these shapes in terms of basic spells. How do they mirror the universe's geometry?

DukeZhou

3:30 AM

That's a basic Element, Water, extended into a specific spell of varying degrees of power and nuance

That little extra squiggle changed the spell slightly, adding an new quality to the triangle sequence.

The shorter versions are lower power, quick

The triangle sequences might be the "slamming you with water", but the squiggle adds a vortex, so the opponents is enclosed and pummeled by a tornado of water

The more triangles, the greater the force of the blast

the squiggle modifies the trajectory into a cycle.

(Modified, of course, by stats, so for a high-level caster, the 2 triangle is quite powerful)

The single triangle, the shape for the element Water, is merely summoning water--it appears in your hand. You can give it to thirsty NPCs and players.

DukeZhou

4:00 AM

------------------------------------------------------------
As that might be difficult to implement on non-touch screens, there is also the concept of GEOMANCY

This would be the real caster game, where they have to know:

1. Based on what region I am in and the elemental relationships
2. Modified by the elements and buffs of the opponent
3. Which elements will be most effective
4. And which spells which combine those elements?

you could also add complexity if there was a day/night cycle--things that might not work during the day, for instance, would work at night, because the dark/light influence re: the elements would change. so not simply "dark chars are powerful at night", but different element/spells work better depending on region.

Dawn/Dusk would be powerful times for teleportation. Midnight/Noon powerful for summoning.

DukeZhou

6:55 AM

SLIGHTLY REVISED MAP:
-Note the STYGIAN SWAMPS (mixture of solid and fluid--Water & "Ice"--plus there can be geysers of lava. Stygian refers to the River Styx, and chars could have Vitality sapped by the water.)
-FROZEN FALLS: back as a big territory--you were right originally--perfect for in between chilly mountains and frozen sea!
-FIRE LAKE as Daemon's home.
-Autumn Forest (cold but not freezing) as home for Undines, but now I'm thinking it might instead be a "MEER", a type of lake where fresh water meets salt at the ocean's edge: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mere_(lake)

This is based on the geometry, the map lines and arrows, showing which races are connected to which weapons and how:

DAEMONS
Offense: Axe
Defense: Spear
Special: Drain enemy ro regenerate (anti-grail)
Resists: Arrows & Swords
Penalty: Staves & Hammers

AETHERIALS
Offense: Spear
Defense: Shield (grail)
Special: Bow
Resists: Sword & Hammer
Penalty: Axe & Staff

ELVES
Offense: Bow
Defense: Sword
Special: Mace (hammers)
Resists: Axes & Staves
Penalty: Shield & Spear

TROLLS
Offense: Maul (hammer)

The Mattbat999

7:38 PM

@DukaZhou about the magic casting thing was thinking of having the player trace patterns on a 5x5 dot grid like thing, to make things simpler.

Also, just a thought, would the game be better as a 3d game?

DukeZhou

3D would be nice, but I think top-down 2D with open roam is more efficient for the initial game. (i.e. it doesn't necessarily need 3D, unless you want to do something very specific like archery targeting in a 3D that would require it.)

Otherwise, 3D is going to make everything harder in terms of developing the game and putting it out.

The Mattbat999

Ok. I will stick to 2d then.

DukeZhou

You good with the territory shifts I made in the new map?

Tonight I'm planning to change the Undine homelands to something like the "Salty Meer" (a meer is a shallow body of water where the salt water meets the fresh--perfect for that location.)

Also let me know what you think of that list of Races in relation to weapons based on the geometry.

The Mattbat999

I would take out the autumn forest and replace with like a bay themed area or something. Other changes are fine

Re race stuff. The idea is good, just seems really complicated. Maybe just 1 weapon per race? It would reduce confusion I amhaving

DukeZhou

7:54 PM

Well, if you do that the gameplay will be very limited, and players won't be happy.

When I get some time, I can show you how all of those categories for each race are based on the lines of the destructive cycle

but you should do what you think is best

just, the potential of this system is that every race, weapon and stat influences each other, 7x7x7 as opposed to merely artificial choices not based on any intrinsic rules

that's what I mean about generalization to harness the full power of this design method

essentially, harnessing combinatorics for exceptional variation and replay

but again, not strictly necessary

and, by using the geometry to make the world, you could always institute the combinatorial power in a later version of the game. (potential is still there, even if you don't harness it at the outset!)

The Mattbat999

@DukeZhou well, stats can be also be affected e.g. undines have extra strength and water attribute, but also reduced lighnting attribute (due to weakness to lightning)

DukeZhou

@TheMattbat999 that's a VERY good start in applying the geometry!

The Mattbat999

Yes.

The Mattbat999

8:27 PM

Possibly Undines pull from Ice and Water, Aetherians pull from Light and Wind, Dwarves pull from Life and Earth etc.

DukeZhou

I think you mean Dwarves pull from Earth and Ice, but yeah, that would work.

There can also be a relationship to the opposite element, so that Dwarves would also have some Life boost, Undines a Fire boost (maybe resistance), Aetherians a Lightning boost, etc.

Also, Aetherians would pull from Water and Wind, but it's notable that the region between them, the Celestial City, is the most Light.

The Mattbat999

Well, since they guard the Life Tree thing, they would draw from it

DukeZhou

8:42 PM

Thus, the combo of those two elements, Water+Wind, could be a way of channeling Light.

@TheMattbat999 remember that green ray I showed you the other day, that fills the "cone" created by the Viriditas element? That's why the Life Tree is there, but also why Dwarves would have a relationship to the tree, and to life

So it's really about the cones projecting across the map for each race

So:
Aetherians are in the Lightning cone
High Elves are in the Earth cone
etc.

The Mattbat999

Ok. So a race is boosted in its related element and in the opposite element (not destruction cycle)

(Also we may have to go a non-SE site for our discussions. I had some complaints about this room from other users)

The Mattbat999

9:27 PM

room topic changed to Goat Chat: Just a named room for conversations between The Mattbat999 and DukaZhou. Others are welcome. Main topic is "Into the Dark Dungeon". [goats] [i.t.d.d.] [video-games]

@DukaZhou I changed the name and description of the room to hopefully deter complaints about it.

The Mattbat999

9:51 PM

@DukaZhou Racial Bonuses: 
Dwarves: 
+Earth 
+Ice 
+Life 
+Strength 
+Vitality 
+Acuity 
Start with Hammer 
 
Undines: 
+Water 
+Ice 
+Fire 
+Acuity 
+Regeneration 
+Power 
Start with Spear 
 
Aetherians: 
+Light 
+Wind 
+Water 
+Regeneration 
+Spirit (Dexterity) 
+Accuracy 
Start with Bow 
  
High Elves: 
+Life 
+Wind 
+Earth 
+Spirit (Dexterity) 
+Strength 
+Vitality 
Start with Staff

Based on location of the race's land. Alsi, Aetherians pull from Light instead of Lightning and Daemons pull from Darkness instead of Water to make them represent their native lands.

DukeZhou

10:12 PM

In the same way the the Celestial City is the most Light of the outer regions, Gehenna is the most Dark. So it makes sense Aetherials and Daemons can channel Light and Dark.

The Racial Stat boosts lose their impact though if each race has 6 boosts! I'd keep it to no more than 3 boosts per race...

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