Zendo

aye

ok so, my first two examples

sure, just tell us what consistutes a valid koan and give an example/counterexample

wait wait wait

I need to know the rules

valid: (1,4,4)

invalid: (1,1,1)

1:45 AM

is (4,1,4) valid?

no, "valid" as in "allowable thing that can be tested"

oh

what's a koan?

@Deusovi oh

@notjagan DL is thinking of a rule that classifies things into two groups. (the things that it classifies are called "koans", as a reference to Zen Buddhist riddles - to continue the reference, the two groups are "things with the Buddha-nature" and "things without the Buddha-nature".)

1:46 AM

well, just give three arbitrarily large integers

is thing you can offer to test

also do we have guessing stones here?

our goal is to figure out that rule. we take turns saying "master" or "mondo" and then giving a koan to DL

What's that?

@Deusovi how do we track guessing stones again?

@DestructibleLemon hold on, explaining the rules

we ought to make a client or bot for this

1:48 AM

I can try making a bot later, although I've never worked with the API before

if you say "master", he will judge it and tell you whether your koan has the Buddha nature. (for instance, one possible rule might be "a koan has the Buddha-nature iff its third number is even".)

if you say "mondo", everyone will get time to make their guess on whether the koan has the Buddha-nature (that is, whether it fits DL's hidden rule or doesn't), and anyone who guesses correctly gets a "guessing stone"

yeah I think we need a spyfall style client for this

@DestructibleLemon no, it's fine

also, let me finish explaining

because you can't do the reveal thing in text chat that well

on your turn, you can use a guessing stone to propose a rule. for instance, you might say "a koan has the Buddha-nature iff its third number is 2". the master (DL) will then attempt to give a counterexample koan (for that example, DL might give "(0, 1, 4) --> true").

if there are no counterexamples, you have successfully figured out the rule and you win

1:52 AM

(for another possible counter example, (0,1,2) --> false, for a different rule)

one question: does the person who says mondo get to guess on the mature?

@notjagan yes, they do get to guess

also, before you make a guess, it's always a good idea to use a mondo, so you can get an extra guessing stone, or if you get it wrong, your guess would have been wrong anyway

I find it a bit odd that all the game terms are in Japanese except for master

you would think it would be rōshi

I'm down for a game. how are the turns decided?

1:56 AM

idk

yeah, it'll be a bit haphazard our first time playing

so who's playing ?

I am

I'm playing. Typing a less messy explanation up at the moment, though.

I'd like to try

2:01 AM

does it have to be a number tuple? or can it be things like words

It can be anything - you decide at the start of the game what is a "valid koan" (that is, what can be judged at all under your rule).

this sounds confusing. hehe

so it could be "valid koans are strings of letters A-Z", or "valid koans are positive integers"

confusing is the best kind of fun

or whatever else you want

2:02 AM

good ${time_of_day} all.

@Rubio error: mismatched brackets

throwing nearest heavy object through window

That's for the course in Perl

(...I just used "brackets" as a general term for parentheses, brackets, and braces. I feel dirty.)

this craptop likes to ignore left-shift. a lot. this is a big part of why I hate playing Contact on it heh

valid koans are 3 integers

2:04 AM

@DestructibleLemon Okay, so you're the master for this round? I guess I'll start:

Master: (0, 0, 0)

false

is turn order important?

Master: 1 2 3

when people actually start guessing, yes

1 2 3: false

2:05 AM

Master: (3, 2, 1)

what dictates order

@Rubio haven't figured that out yet. I guess we'll just go until everyone has gone, then cycle around?

deus, john, rubio, notjagan, then myself

how about htat

3 2 1: false

Master: (1, 9, 6)

ok, so I'm just going to put my first two koans here

2:06 AM

I follow John. check.

in case someone missed them

1 4 4: true

I propose the turn order be starred

1 1 1: false

1 9 6: false

^ are these related to this round, or what

those are the initial koans I think

Master: (4, 4, 1)

2:07 AM

with the exception of the third, which is this round

(this is basically "What is a Buddha-Natured [word/phrase/ordered triplet of integers]™?", the game)

7

oooh.

make sense now? :P

You've just reached me on a level I didn't think possible. ;)

Master lemon, your response? :P

2:10 AM

@DestructibleLemon

sorry

4 4 1: true

finally a true case :P

True
====
1 4 4
4 4 1

False
=====
1 9 6
1 1 1
3 2 1
1 2 3
0 0 0

What is that sorting order? O_o

semi random

2:11 AM

1 4 4 - true
1 1 1 - false
0 0 0 - false
1 2 3 - false
3 2 1 - false
1 9 6 - false
4 4 1 - true

ah yes, the classic "screw it, I do what I want" sorting algorithm

hmm

@notjagan ctrl k is your friend

Ah, the good ole shuffleSort

@Deusovi :D

2:12 AM

that version is chronological

so now it's to deus

Master: (-1, -4, -4)

when are you allowed to propose a rule, and does it replace a turn?

-1 -4 -4: true

@Rubio If you have a guessing stone (which you get when someone says "mondo", you make your guess on whether the koan is valid, and you guess correctly), then after your koan you can propose the rule.

2:14 AM

@Rubio you can spend a guessing stone (won from getting a mondo right) to propose a rule after your turn. you can do this as many times are you are able in a turn, until running out of stones

Master: (6 1 6)

@JohnDvorak :O evil!!!!11!!1

6 1 6: true

"mondo" ...?

who answers. The world, or the master

we've been saying "master" before all of our turns so far

you can also say "mondo" instead, at which point everyone makes a guess as to whether the koan has the Buddha-nature before the master confirms

2:16 AM

Who starts with the guesses?

when someone says mondo, everyone thinks about the koan, and then everyone answers (independently, hopefully) whether they think the koan has buddha nature, and everyone who thought right receives a guessing stone when the master marks the koan

Please don't let the game reach the stage where everybody knows the rule, nobody has a stone and nobody wants to mondo because the next person will win

That would be pretty anticlimatic

@JohnDvorak it supposed to be simultaneous, but it's not designed for these formats

oh, asynchronous-in-theory

@Wen1now um... you can mondo and then win

2:17 AM

^

Oh

Sorry

@Wen1now when you guess a mondo correctly you can immediately use that stone

they thought a fair amount about the game design

if you miss a mondo on your turn, can you still use a guessing stone?

yes

oh. so if I have an idea for a rule, I can "Mondo" a guess, everyone answers what they think it is (me included), and then those of us who guess correctly get a guessing stone?

2:18 AM

I clearly didn't read the Rule Discussions

@Rubio That's correct.

@Rubio yes

And then you have the opportunity to use your guessing stone to propose a rule before the next player goes. (Or multiple, if you want to and have multiple guessing stones!)

Do stones reset after each round?

Mondo: (2, 3, 2)

2:19 AM

guess true

guess true

alright, are we just going to state our guesses in the open?

I guess true

guess false

guess false

@Deusovi until we get a special client like we have for spyfall

2:19 AM

Do I have to wait my turn before I can guess?

@DestructibleLemon, the answer? (unless Wen is playing?)

ok can you guys just imagine a drumroll?

drumming

(imagining one)

@Wen1now playing??

2:20 AM

hmm?

are you playing?

Okay, sure

I guess true

ok, so, the answer is...

true

so then I can use the guessing stone I just got to propose a rule?

yes

2:21 AM

yes, you can

dang I think I might know it

but I was just being dumb

I propose a valid koan is one with exactly two matching integers

(that's what I was thinking as well)

oh different than mine

my guess, too

2:23 AM

@DestructibleLemon ?

drumroll?

more drumming

yeah that's correct

less drumming please

Yay

We win

2:24 AM

gg

whee.

Next master be Rubio, then?

This game sounds like it can last an eternity sometimes

oh. so I give two examples?

@Sid only for poorly chosen rules

2:25 AM

@Sid well, I mean someone could just troll you by saying all your rules are wrong and making random koans as counterexamples

they're always triplets, I assume

@Rubio You tell us what a judgeable koan is (the "word/phrase/triple of integers" part of "What is a ___ Word™"?)

nope, you get to pick.

oh. ok

you can say they're strings of letters, single integers, or something more complicated

Ok these are words.

Ex.1 : Jane is true

Ex. 2 : dog is false

2:27 AM

I don't like dogs either

so are linguistic rules allowed?

because they're rather different in spirit to zendo, I think?

hm, good point

but this still might not be a linguistic rule

@Rubio is it?

(the original game is purely based around geometric patterns of pyramids)

We need a new turn order

2:28 AM

@Deusovi nuh uh!

there was also colours!

fair enough

If you are asking if the rule is semantic, it is not. I assumed that's not how the game works.

ok then!

is it syntactic though?

:P

We didn't explicitly say it. In the original game, you're not allowed to refer to things outside of the koan (like "a koan has the Buddha-nature iff it has a pyramid pointing to me"), though.

in a similar vein, could number sequences be digitally mathematical?

2:30 AM

@Rubio well I mean I wanted to make sure

Who starts in this game?

e.g. the concatenation of these digits produces a number divisible by 6

@notjagan possibly...

The mondo shouldn't have to make computer programs

I think Deus' description is exactly apt, and I'm following it. :)

2:31 AM

@notjagan well I mean you could say it works by multiplying one of the the numbers by 10 ^ floor log(some number dependent on the other numbers)

I think mathematical and visual rules are fine, but an alien without any knowledge of our culture should be able to understand the rule and tell whether a koan is valid in isolation.

@notjagan I would think that was a valid rule, personally, though I wouldn't use that

^

^

(the best rules are "elegant" in a sense)

2:32 AM

yeah... even with complicated rules I find that pyramids just ends up being so more intuitive somehow

though they include number things sometimes...

anyway - you have the Thing and two examples - so just need, what, a guessing order now?

Just make a really cool rool

Yep, a guessing order would be nice

I mean rule

Yeah, just the guessing order. I'll start off to get things going

Master: A

2:33 AM

false

Perhaps the guessing order can be derived from the old one, physical table style

We need a pseudo-random turn order generator

(just ignore me)

Surgery on Shiro?

deus, wen1, me, sid, DL, john, notjag

I mean ignore

as in ignore my comments

I still want to play though

2:34 AM

you forgot wen -

lol

nvm

we can use random.org/lists in following games to randomize order

Master: June

false

2:35 AM

Master: Jamie

false

Master: God

false

@DestructibleLemon

ok

um

do they have to be actual words?

2:37 AM

I'll be back in 5

Skip me if I'm not here in time

@Rubio do they have to be actual words?

12 mins ago, by Rubio

Ok these are words.

yes, valid koans are words

I don't think I'm supposed to have to answer that. I said they are words

yeah but doesn't that make it a little bit semantic based?

at least a little?

also are names really words?

he's asking whether your rule even applies to non-word strings of letters

2:39 AM

word
wərd/
noun
noun: word; plural noun: words

1.
a single distinct meaningful element of speech or writing, used with others (or sometimes alone) to form a sentence and typically shown with a space on either side when written or printed.

well anyway

(note that even if it does, you can say it doesn't, meaning you'll only judge words)

master: James

true

master: Mary

2:40 AM

true

Master: Grass

false

mondo: names

guess false

guess true

2:41 AM

guess false

sorry I misread

guess true

I guess true.

guess true

hm

wait for wen?

2:42 AM

naw

names is true

5 mins ago, by Wen1now

Skip me if I'm not here in time

oh right

mondo: Carol

guess false

guess false

2:45 AM

guess false

guess true

Guess false

Oh boy. Wen won't be happy.

@DestructibleLemon

...

move to add a rule, that turns/guesses not made in reasonable time are forfeit

2:48 AM

^

agreed

what counts as "reasonable time"?

Carol is true

5 minutes

so I Can guess now right

2:48 AM

1 minute, perhaps even less

5 minutes even is far too long for an interactive game

^

anyway. yes Conor, you can

2 minutes, because that's the edit window and easy to measure?

I think I won't guess actually

2:50 AM

Master: John

false

I guess DL is skipped?

^

Mondo: Xyzzy

isn't that a city in california

2:52 AM

sorry

Not sure where it is

I'm not sure that counts as a word. if it were one, it would be false

well that was mondo :P

xyzzy is like foobar I think

oh

2:52 AM

then I'd like to guess

also can I have my turn or would that mess up the turn order

...don't think it can be mondo anymore, but nice try

it's a mnemonic in math, a term in computing, as well as a CaH clone

letters must alternate between ascending and descending, first pair descending.

(I count this as a mondo with hidden guesses)

@JohnDvorak (???)

2:54 AM

I did want to guess. It would be unfair to not let me because of master's error.

That is not the rule. (Jane is true)

Jane abides by the rule?

(the guessing stone is not used up)

Jane follows my rule

oh. I misunderstood your rule. It is the the rule, in any case.

2:55 AM

oooooooh now I get it

@Rubio not*

er. NOT

lol

Counterexample, then?

I also take it I'm at zero stones now?

oh wait Mary doesn't abide by that

Shush, the more counterexamples the better :P

2:57 AM

lol

@notjagan?

oh sorry, I forgot it was my turn

;_; I missed my turn

yes. you did.

Master: Dame

oh wait

2:59 AM

Dame is true