The Awkward Silence - 2019-12-04 (page 1 of 2)

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Extroverted Main Man

12:42 AM

0

Q: How to convey interest after I've declined multiple invitations?

My neighbor who lives across the hall from me in my apartment building is clearly trying to extend an olive branch of friendship. We met at a community gathering for residents a little over a month ago and got along splendidly, but due to opposing work schedules we have not seen each other since...

united-states awkward-situations etiquette approach making-friends

6 hours later…

6:25 AM

Morning @AJ!

6:43 AM

Hey everyone :)

@avazula Afternoon!

Extroverted Main Man

7:09 AM

0

Q: How to tell my Mom that i don't care about someone without upsetting her?

last week my Grandmother had a surgery. my Mom told me why i didn't visit her. i don't care about my Grandmother due to horrible things she does sometimes. what is so important for me is to be honest with everyone, never lie and never pretend someone i am not. also i'm really bad at handling fee...

family explaining grandparents

7:29 AM

morning

8:08 AM

@Imus heya! :)

Looks like a busy chat this morning :)

Morning!

IPS Comment Bot

@BlackCrystal Only if those health issues are relevant to how your grandmother upset you in the first place. I don't think they're relevant here otherwise. Not having autism isn't really needed either I think. Especially with the comments now (note: these comments will probably get deleted soon though, the lack of any mention of autism should be enough to keep answers general enough) — Imus 1 min ago

#23655 Imus (5385 rep) | Q: How to tell my Mom that i don't care about someone without upsetting her? (score: 1) | posted 1 hours ago by BlackCrystal (111 rep) | edited 48 minutes ago by BlackCrystal (111 rep) | Toxicity 0.0 | tps/fps: 0/0

Matched regex(es) ["possible-aic(@Noon)"]

Does anyone know, in which cultures is it considered impolite to not name yourself last if giving names for "we" like in saying "Me, Joohn and Alice did this."?

8:24 AM

Dutch?

Always been taught it's 'Alice, John, and I', if you want to be really strict on etiquette you name the 'highest ranking' person first, so a parent before a child...

Can confirm

@dhein It's impolite not to name yourself last in French too

2

A: In what order should you say people's names?

You are free to choose any order you like, so long as 'and I' comes last.

Correct way in English is to put "and I" last as well it seems :)

Well, I am just asking, because a coworker I am doing sort of researching with kept writing in emails about our progress "Me and dhein". I want to give them a hint on a sidenote that I don't mind but its generally impolite doing it that way here. They are from India, so it might be simply cause thats not a thing in their culture. But how I would say that depends a little if that would be a thing in india, too.

As if they just forgot about it the reaction might be different from if they couldn't have known.

I'd say correct it like any other grammar mistake that someone consistently makes. :)

8:34 AM

In Portuguese I usually for "I" in the beginning of the sentence, not sure if there's even a etiquette as it sounds weird in last.

And morning :)

Well, your language is wrong then :p

Totally makes sense to use "and I" in last in english, portuguese not so much x)

@dhein You did make me curious though. From my knowledge reading about Indian culture they may have a tendency to be less humble/acknowledging inability then in Western cultures ... So it could be because to them, saying "Dhein and I" might insinuate that you did most of the important work

"Eu, o X e o Y fizemos um trabalho." vs "O X, o Y e eu fizemos um trabalho." - It is the same but It's not impolite in first or last. I might search something on Portuguese Language :p

Morning

8:43 AM

Hello beautiful :)

Looking at starred messages and wondering, how Winter bash works?

@Imus Yeah, but isn't that the whole idea about it, not doing it? To follow a common rule, to not give away any insinuation of who had the major involvement into the conclusion by a given order and hence one names themself last as if everyone does this it has no meaning?

@dhein That works if everyone does it. I'm just saying that it might be (I don't know) that in Indian culture it's usually "I/me" first

@CaldeiraG You'll earn hats for doing certain good things. It's meant as a way to drive a bit of traffic during slow periods, and to encourage existing community members to moderate that traffic too. Some hats have triggers that you can see, others are secret (but their triggers will be on MSE, most likely).

the 'hats' are just small things you can put on your profile picture.

Oh yeah! my lazy stone gets a hat again finally :3

@Imus Hahaha, yeah that was my initial idea, too. Thats why I asked if anyone here might know x)

8:47 AM

user image

@Tinkeringbell Ah nice then :D

Looking forward for it

It's my first one because even though I have this account since 2018, I stopped activity in the summer till this year xD

I accidentally made a bet with someone yesterday xD If I lose, I have to go to Twitchcon cosplaying as a WoW night elf.

@CaldeiraG It can be a lot of fun, especially if it's your first one. After that... they all become the same XD

I only went for the red circle last year, because it looked good on the parrot ;)

@Belle That sounds like "I want to go to Twitchcon cosplaying as a WoW night elf but feel insecure about it. Let's make a bet with someone that I lose on perpose!"

:p

@Imus Maybe... :P

8:55 AM

What happens if you win the bet?

The guy who made the bet with me has to cosplay as a draenei

Welp, guess you're going as night elf and draenei to twitchcon together :p

That'd be quite possible. I've actually started the cosplay, I decided to do it regardless of if I win or lose.

you just make sure to win the bet and then go as night elf anyway since you prepared the costume already and he might need some support :)

@Belle I knew it :p

Sounds fun too :)

@Tinkeringbell I would imagine so xD

9:35 AM

I should really stop going to TWP. A particular user there rubs me entirely the wrong way and I let it ruin my whole day.

you mean in chat, their questions/answers, or something else?

Both of those.

Is it possible to try to pretend they aren't there? In chat just ignore anything they say. Try to skip their answers (or downvote if it's a bad answer anyway)

> he

?

@JAD euhm, old habbit I guess :)

I've still got to actively think about avoiding gendered pronouns, since in Dutch we don't have gender neutral ones...

9:48 AM

I try to, but this user is particularly vocal about things that just... hurt.

point those things out to mods?

@Imus well, we do, but people don't like being referred to as "het"

@JAD "het" means a non-living thing. So, no we really do not have gender neutral pronouns in Dutch :p

@Imus Did that a few times, but he's not breaking any rules

@Imus "het dier"

TBH, I think I can guess who you mean

9:51 AM

@JAD hmm, fine you got me on that one :p Correct thing is non-person?

@Belle If nothing else works, you might want to stop reading (their) comments/answers. That's what I did for MSE and it's working great. But, in any case, have all my support. It's never nice feeling this way :/

I personally would just bully such people away ... but that's obviously not a solution I can advise you to do :p

@Imus Hmm, wait. I'm confounding things

De/het are no pronouns

or not in this context

Not in "het dier", but "het" can also be used in a pronoun, so I understood the counterpoint you tried to make

maybe I confused myself

I'll admit it's not something I regularly think about

9:54 AM

@Imus You probably have, but you are not aware of it. French doesn't have gender-neutral pronouns either, but the non-binary community finded a way to have one. So, French do have gender-neutral pronouns now, except that they aren't "official" (but everyone in the community will recognise them and know how to use them).

In Dutch there's still the "rule" to use the "general he" form

@Ælis If there are such words invented recently in Dutch, the community hasn't been vocal enough about it that I would have heard about it

De/het/een are pronouns. "Ik" is a pronoun too, but a first person one. Same in English, "I" is also a pronoun. Although "het" is similar to "it", closer to having no gender than an undefined gender.

@Imus I think some people use similar neopronouns as in english. It's just not common

@Imus There is that in French too. But Feminist and non-binary people don't recognise it as being neutral at all (even if it's the "rule")

Nooooo

9:56 AM

Hi

My annoying coworker's contract was extended for another 8 weeks ...

:'(

@avazula That sounds even worse than people complaining in chat again about pronouns :p

@Imus Or maybe the binary people didn't take enough attention about it ^^

I use 3rd person plural "ze/hun" about a single person in spoken language, which most people accept.

@Ælis I'll admit I have absolutely nobody I know that is non-binary

9:57 AM

@avazula Arf, sorry about that. I can totally relate (even if my annoying coworker is gone!)

I have several gay friends, and even a transgendered coworker

who I all get along with

@Ælis how can you pay attention to something you don't know exists

@Imus I haven't read the transcript yet

@avazula Only the last few minutes. No biggie (I think)

@avazula it's the topic we were actively talking about when you interjected with your "noooo"

9:59 AM

@Ælis That's it, I'm gonna go on strike tomorrow as a sign of protest!

I consider myself non-binary nowadays, but female-presenting. But I can't be arsed to tell people, lest I have to explain what it means to ignorant people.

so I thought that was what you were going "nooo" about :p

@avazula that might solve the problem of the annoying coworker too

@avazula Greet everyone by name in the morning except your annoying coworker. That'll teach them!

in the way that you might not have any coworkers anymore

10:00 AM

@Imus I know, I just haven't read the whole thing :) but I won't participate in that convo, if you don't mind.

oh boy pronoun discussions my favourite

@avazula feel free to ignore it :)

@AlexRobinson boy? :P

@AlexRobinson my favourite is discussions about pronoun discussions

(sorry, couldn't resist)

10:00 AM

@AlexRobinson "oh kid" please ;) jkjk

@Belle still ageist

@Tinkeringbell he (!) want's to put some more fire on it to keep the discussion going

@Imus who be he

...

hello 58! how are you

10:01 AM

@JAD well other people protest against retirement conditions but to heck! I'm going with bad conditions :p

@AlexRobinson Oh I'm sorry, I assumed that was your intention, hence why it would also be okay to assume your gender to help your cause

wth is Rain doing here at this time?

Sleepwalking into the room ;)

@JAD is "oh dear" okay or is it condescending? :p

@Imus ignores Imus in this chatroom :p

@Imus ahhh i see, its just an expression lol. i use they/them but you didn't know so its okay ^^

10:02 AM

(jk)

I like pooh bear's "Oh, bother"

2

@avazula definitely condescending. "oh god" is religionist.

oh jeez?

@JAD also religionist

@Belle Honestly curious about this thing (feel free not to answer). If the culture would be more open to more boyish females, so even though you'd have the label "female" it wouldn't imply that you'd be the typical barby stereotype. Would you still be so inclined to truly not have that label?

10:03 AM

i really hope this is some joke i'm not in on...

@AlexRobinson Things may be going a tad Dutch ;)

@avazula depends on whether me feeling condescended makes it condescending

@JAD oh <whatever> ...

:p

@Belle I totally feel the same way. Have all my love and support <3

@avazula from the looks of it... not much

10:07 AM

@Imus Good question. There's also the matter of my sexuality (I'm closeted pan, but I have a male fiancé who knows, so I don't feel pressured to come out to anyone else yet), which feels connected to gender a bit too. Perhaps I wonder if I can truly be a woman if I feel like I can love non-men too.

@Imus That makes me think, I'm still closeted about this (mostly because I don't think it's an info anyone should have about me) but yesterday I talked about myself as agender in a survey. That was the first time I used that word to describe my identity. But my opinions on gender are very strong (and I'd totally get how people would disagree with me) but to me it's just bs society is imposing on us and I can't relate to any of the binary options we're offered.

@avazula gender is bs tbh

@AlexRobinson heh, glad I'm not the only one to think that way :D

(sorry I edited my last message, the last sentence was not conveying my feelings at all and it might have offended some people. If I did, I'm truly sorry).

@Belle At least to me, what gender (or lack of gender) you love has nothing to do with your own gender. Being gay doesn't make you any less of a man than any woman-loving man is

its so hecking arbitrary and stupid and a lot of people assume that if you are male then you have to present male and do masculine things - the same goes for being female. when in reality thats just stupid and people should be able to do what makes them happy without being judged or percieved as anything "different" or "special" - just that they are being themself

10:10 AM

@avazula That's just about how I feel. I don't feel particularly connected to "women" over this shared thing we're supposed to have. I do feel connected to them over issues I have with my body like periods but I'd have that same connection with any person who experiences those.

I do fully acknowledge that feeling this way (and thus not knowing clearly for yourself which gender you'd love) can be really confusing :) To me this confusion just isn't about your own gender

(looks like I engaged in that convo after all :p)

@Imus could you expand on that if you don't mind? I'm struggling to understand what you mean

@Imus 100% sexuality != gender and i'd also like to differentiate between sexual attraction and romantic attraction

@AlexRobinson Somehow I can do that 100% for other people but not for myself

i get that. i'm terrible at taking my advice even if its exactly what i'd give to someone else in my shoes :D

10:15 AM

@avazula What Alex said I guess :) It was further in answer to Belle's response that their sexuality feels connected to their gender. My response is "to me the answer is no, since who/what you love is independed on your own sex", while at the same time I did want to point out that it could still feel confusing nontheless

oh, okay. Thanks for clarifying :)

Also nice of you to not ignore me asking genuine questions :) As always, I actually do try to understand people feeling different ^.^

i really want to write an IPS meta post about the differences between ones sex, gender, presenting gender, pronouns and sexuality, as it is something that gets muddled sometimes

is that on-topic on IPS meta?

@Imus People who ignore your genuine questions probably just don't have the spoon to answer ^^ (so, nothing personal)

10:18 AM

not really

@AlexRobinson I think it could be a nice idea :) (not sure how the community would react to it, but I like it notheless)

meta isn't / shouldn't be a catch-all for stuff that doesn't fit on IPS itself.

@Ælis oh I don't mind people not answering my questions :) It's just that I'm interested in something and often find people actually do answer them

A good place for this stuff would be tag wiki's of those tags (I'm assuming there are tags related to gender etc)

thats the thing, it'd be something to refer to and almost be a community wiki-esque post that would be a bit off topic but i feel would be helpful to just be linked from time to time

10:20 AM

tag wiki

@JAD about which tag? Most of those things are implied to be used in the post (or lack thereof) and we're now (actually even before) obliged to keep gender out of it anyway

err i'm not sure thats strictly true Imus. and good idea JAD!

there is a gender

@Imus "obliged to keep gender out of it anyway" -> I don't know where you read this, but it's not my interpretation at all ^^

do note that these should be as a factual as possible.

10:24 AM

@Ælis I'm probably not wording it the way I intend it to be. What I meant is that we shouldn't assume gender in post and keep it gender neutral until otherwise specified. Certain question could be specifically on how to deal with gender related issues but do they need a tag for that?

@Imus that's what tags are for

@Imus the only thing to remember (and I don't think you have an issue with that) is that not because someone does fall into a category you have questions about does it mean you're entitled to them educating you on it. Again, you don't have that issue, but I think it's an important thing to remember.

@avazula Don't get me wrong, I fully agree with that. I'm only questioning whether a TAG is the correct place

@Imus If you are talking about a topic related to sexism or a transgender person, then you should definitively use the gender tag ^^ (the same way you would use the autism-spectrum tag when talking about someone on the autims spectrum)

^

And the tag wiki serves to document what falls under the gender tag and what doesn't, along with providing some general information about the subject

10:26 AM

Sure, didn't realise it existed (and latest post tagged with that gender tag is from 2012?).

@Imus No, it's from the 12th of October 2019 ^^

@Imus As I said, I know :) I just wanted to share this info w/ everyone and took advantage of the fact that you mentioned it.

@Ælis euhm ... stupid english way of writing dates reversed ...

Point taken :D

Learning has taken place today. Tonight I can go to sleep a smarter man than before :)

:)

education about sex/gender is important because it isn't normally taught to a great extent

10:36 AM

hey @ava can I get a profile refresh please?

@AlexRobinson Oh, I got loads of sex ed at 14/15. Gender though, that came only much later during anthropology courses in uni.

@user58 sure?

(how do I do that?)

chat profile > moderation tools > refresh profile from parent site

on it

@Tinkeringbell i meant "sex" more as in, to be paired with gender - in that they're often confused. lots of people assume they're the same

10:38 AM

thanks

@AlexRobinson Ah yeah...

That kind of sex ;)

The boooooring kind :P

We can call you @mith again! :D

Love the new picture

crab user58 is gone crab

I think I only learned about that concept in university then, when courses in anthropology and archaeology pointed out that if you e.g. find a skeleton, you can determine its sex but it would not say anything about gender.

@Belle :)

10:39 AM

@Tinkeringbell you actually learned anything about gender? My entire knowledge about it is from the interwebs :o

i only started learning about it about 14 months ago and it has been a wild ride

@Imus Yeah... mostly just that gender comes with stereotypes and it's bad to assume those are the same across culture and time.

@Imus ... can one not learn from the blogosphere??

@AlexRobinson what is this blogosphere you speaketh of?

its the interweb, just a ****post-y name

10:42 AM

oh

@Belle This one more accurately represents what I look like IRL... although @EmC didn't include hazel eye options ;)

is that a picrew photo?

I learned more on the internet than in school tbh

Casual Character Creator

Just found out from a very well respected source that Belgium is one of the most progressive about LGBT rights ... this might be why I was always confused why these things are such a big deal in the rest of the world :D

10:45 AM

@Imus This is the source. That 73% is #2 seems... meh.

@Mithical I did one too this morning

was mostly making a joke about wikipedia being a very well respected source :p

unfortunately it is a big deal as some people cannot say who they are because they may be: kicked out of their current living arrangements, persecuted, attacked verbally or physically...

My ava

@Imus wikipedia is a fantatically good source and anyone who sais otherwise is just incorrect.

10:46 AM

@Imus I got that :) I tried making a follow-up point, but I failed to point out that it's a follow-up point a tad.

atleast 95+% of the time that is

The way I consider gender here is "you can be whatever you want, just don't make a big deal out of it"

its not about you can be. there isn't really a choice involved @Imus

in the same way you can't choose your height or skin colour

@AlexRobinson well yeah. What I mean is: If you feel more like a girl even if you have the boy-sex then just tell me you're a girl and let's talk about something else where I adress you as she/her from now on.

And that's really all there is to say about it usually

And because the culture here is so open about that, with so little interest in the difference (other than commercially or sports where it actually matters that there is a difference in the sex in the first place) it's often not really that needed to be called "agender" instead of picking either one of the binary ones.

i like that you have a positive attitude towards this, the only thing i would say is that it is a big deal to a lot of people and being dismissive of that fact can be harmful to some people

2

10:53 AM

@AlexRobinson Just wanted to point out why I don't really understand that it has to be such a big deal. Not my intention to dismiss that it is a big deal to some people :)

i get you

@Mithical It's so weird seeing you like that (I always need a bit of time to adjust to new people avatar). I first thought you were @AGirl that had changed avatar ^^

Took me until today that this cultural difference is the major reason for my lack of understanding (internally, openly I usually try to just go along with what helps people, so I have never had an issue with using they/them once that was pointed out to me)

anyway, got to go now. I'll be back in an hour or so :)

let me put it this way: i currently am reasonably sure i am non binary. if i were to tell my parents about this i might be cut off financially and from the family as a whole. if i get that financial cut off i will lose my flat by february (if i don't get my expected january pay rise). thats why its a big deal - people get persecuted over their gender

^ that

10:56 AM

@AlexRobinson See, now that is entirely wrong. Not you being differently gendered than the norm. But that it actually matters (for society)

I fully agree with your point here though :)

im sorry what, how am i wrong here. i don't understand

you aren't wrong

@Ælis Yeah... The original change had been for safety reasons. Those specific reasons are no longer applicable, so I figured it was time to make myself identifiable again. It takes time for me to adjust as well :P

Anyway, let's have a cat @ips

IPS Comment Bot

user image

10:57 AM

ohhhh

I'm saying that "It's wrong that in some cultures people get persecuted for their gender"

yeah

it took me a moment but i get you ^^

:)

I made an avatar too. Time to update it :)

@Mithical I'm glad that those safety reasons are no longer an issue :)

10:58 AM

Pfew I was about to issue a warning and ask you to be careful about where this conversation was going ^_^

@Belle How am I supposed to recognize people if everyone updates their avatar at the same time? :'( (jk)

(It's an important topic, I know, but it's also a difficult one. I'm glad we all can talk about it while remaining civil. There are few places on SE where this is possible rn. I'm proud of us people! :) )

4

Also, let's have another cat ('cause I want more!) @ips

IPS Comment Bot

user image

@avazula there is a strong sense of community here, and people are both open minded and respectful for the most part

11:01 AM

I got a new picture :)

Wait no I don't

@AlexRobinson true. That's partly why I didn't hand in my resignation when there were all those fights on MSE and elsewhere. U people rule!

Now I do

yay!

i started becoming an active user again around the time that MSE just kinda exploded

@Belle I must say, I'm a bit disappointed by the lack of green in your new avatar :p But it's still a very nice one :)

11:09 AM

@Ælis Sorry :P I didn't want to make my avatar look too much like mith's.

maybe i should change my avatar too to add to the chaos ;)

@Belle That's a valid reason, I approve :p (please, I won't confuse you with @AJ anymore :p )

@AlexRobinson ><

hahaha. i wouldn't actually, because i happened to be quite fond of my current one

can we take a moment to appreciate how atleast 4 of the current starred messages are all about having a positive gender discussion

@AlexRobinson It's very selfish of me, but I'm relief. People changing avatar are very confusing and hard to remember for me. All those reinstate Monica avatar had been/are a nightmare ><

@Ælis a little bit after i said that, i did realise that this may have been the case and might not be the most accomodating action i could take ^^

also, why would i change the NB flag?? its great :D

11:19 AM

@AlexRobinson I couldn't agree more! :D

@Ælis If I use my IRL picture, would you confuse it with someone else? :P

@AJ Maybe. Or I might just not remember who you are anymore ^^

@Ælis Who are you talking about? (/s)

@Ælis lol

hi A J, welcome to the awkward silence, you must be new here ;)

12:01 PM

@AlexRobinson O.o

I am here since the judgement day. :P

There, I ordered a pattern for my very first cosplay :P

Good!

New Avatar

12:21 PM

how does one ask a question whilst offering them a way out to not answer the question because it might be awkward

you don't.

not an option

well, not an ideal option

ask the question and get it closed.

@AlexRobinson in what context?

I have done precisely that about an hour or 2 ago here in chat

(if I remember correctly)

I've also done a similar thing in a comment on a question earlier this morning as well :)

quoting myself: "If you don't mind me asking: are you on the autism spectrum by any chance? (Feel free to not answer this if you don't want to). This could be useful to add to the tags if you are, since it might help writing an answer that fits the situation better."

ofcourse I can't be entirely sure that it would be awkward, but I believe it was close enough there :)

i "need" to ask a friend a question that might be awkward, so i would like to ask them but also let them know somehow that they shouldn't feel obligated to answer. but i dont want that bit to seem like sarcy or whatever - i only have good intentions for this

12:26 PM

1) The road to hell is paved with good intentions.
2) Do you "need" to do it for your friend? Or for your own conscience?
3) I believe I've read a question about this somewhere ... can't remember which one exactly

Extreme example: "look at how cool my gun is! See, this is how you unlock the safety, now watch me juggle it along with my phone and my car keys". Oh no officer I never meant to shoot him, I was just trying to cheer him up by showing him my juggling skills :'(

I'm mostly joking ofcourse, but try to see the point that good intentions are awesome but it's important that you have the **right** intentions for them too :)

1) fair point
2) you might have me there. i need to ask in that i do have a bit of a need for closure, so having matters unresolved bugs the heck out of me
3) :)

Are you sure you need to prevent awkward at all? I mean, if you would for example want to "come out" to your friend, that's highly likely to become awkward at first, but should be good in the long run (depending on culture ofcourse, in some cultures it's dangerous to do so)

@AlexRobinson "Hi, may I ask you a [personal/weird/etc] question? You don't need to answer if you don't want to." - is this an option?

Because I do that :p

@CaldeiraG flagged as duplicate from my example :p

poking our web developers friends

Inclusive by design: beyond binary

12:39 PM

:O

@Imus x)

My only concern is that since it was written by a cis woman I'm afraid she hasn't consulted nb people about this but her disclaimer at the footer lets me think she has

I love Medium and all the articles in here ... "Can a Soufflé Rise Twice? -
Overcoming The Tyranny Of Past Failure"

> Don’t ask for gender unless you need to

That. The only one who needs to know is my doctor. And they need to know my sex rather than gender even.

12:55 PM

What about prof. Oak asking if you're a boy or a girl in that game? (Technically it's not "you" but "is the character you're playing as a boy or a girl?"

I've always found that question funny cause it has 0% impact on the rest of the game (I think)

So if you want to gender characters in a video game you should probably allow for presentation rather than sex.

@Imus Ask which character the user wants to play rather than which one they "are".

I for one always preferred to play female-presenting characters, but I didn't need to know if they had a vagina

@Belle you mean breaking the 4th wall instead of going for immersion?

I would just not ask that question in pokemon in the first place :p

the question itself is bad.

12:58 PM

@AGirlHasNoName Technically not all games specify it's the sex :)

@Imus But the presentation is binary.

Well yes, because the outfits are according to binary standards ...

Do you want to play a character in bikini or a bodybuilder ?

@Imus it impacts speedrunners - one option is normally faster as there are a few text boxes that become faster / slower, and that in itself often affects some RNG manipulations which are vital

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