The Awkward Silence - 2018-03-05 (page 2 of 2)

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2:06 PM

@ExtrovertedMainMan It seems like people are confusing my question for "how to reject tech support", which is very different from my intention with the question. I've edited it to clarify where I thought there might be misunderstanding, but I'd like to know how else I can edit it so that it's clearer. Should I just remove the "tech support" example altogether? I feel like that would make it too vague/broad

To me it is very clear. idk

@sphennings - Can you do me a favor and ping me when you respond? This chat room has quite a sea of comments in it. Thanks.

I wouldn't worry too much about 1 close-vote....

It's not so much about the close vote as it is about the misunderstanding. It seemed to transpire in the comments and the answer too

Make that two answers now

Yeah.. well, I'm still not sure enough what you want to write an answer myself, but I'm also not sure what I'm not sure about (so I'm not very helpful here, sorry)..

2:14 PM

Root of the question is when you say you don't know how to do something, but people firmly believe you do

"In your words, what is the one sentence summary of your question?" Well, the way I was thinking of it was this: When I call the school to leave a phone message, I am directed to request a phone call by sending an email. What is a good way to do so? I was then going to follow up with a second question, separately, to ask how to assert myself when the looping starts, because of the other person stubbornly insisting on email.

Problem is, if I edit the question to remove the tech support example, it'll invalidate both answers

@HugoBDesigner Yeah, but right now I'm not sure if the problem is you (the way you say it) or those other people ... That's probably it...

@Tinkeringbell Technically, the problem is with other people, but I think managing someone's stubbornness is an important skill to learn in such situations, which is why I tried focusing my question on how I should respond

@HugoBDesigner Okay, now we're getting somewhere... Take a look here ;) wikihow.com/Deal-With-Stubborn-People What have you already tried, what not? Which point would you like to see a little more explained?

@aparente001 This stack has some bad experience with that kind of questions (there was one user spamming us these sorts of questions twice a day)... Which is why the following sentence is in the help center:

> ask us to rewrite text or otherwise tell you what to say. We are not an editing service. Questions should focus on how to generally write or decide what to say so that you can tailor them to your situation.

I think this is a case of 'question is too narrow'..?

I think your question may have a higher success rate if it focuses on the fact that you want to avoid the going in circles in the first place, so maybe ask about 'how to write a persuasive e-mail' or something? (Not saying that will be the miracle cure, just a train of thought)

It may be that people still think it's looking more for text writing than actual skills..

2:25 PM

@Tinkeringbell I appreciate the resource a lot and I'm reading through it, but it seems more of a "Option A vs. Option B" kind of stubbornness.

It does have some good points, though, which I'll keep in mind

@HugoBDesigner Yeah, true... lemme see if I can find something else ;)

I found this one on unrealistic expectations, but it's more intrapersonal...

psychcentral.com/lib/how-to-relinquish-unrealistic-expectations

I might write an answer later this afternoon based on those two resources though ;)

Thank you, that'd be really helpful!

Have no fear, NVZ is here.

And TheTinyMan is here to stop him!

2:58 PM

@Tinkeringbell - Thanks for explaining. I like what you said about wanting to avoid going in circles. But the suggestion "how to write a persuasive email" doesn't work for this at all. The whole point is that there are times when I don't want to discuss a particular topic with a particular person via email. However, I am being required to use email as a way of requesting a phone call. Look, I have a lot of experience...

@aparente001 So you need an e-mail to persuade that person of the necessity of a phone-call?

Or what am I missing :/

... writing persuasive emails. That's not what I'm trying to ask about. I would like to start with a simple, polite way of requesting a phone call. That's Step 1. Believe it or not, I already agonize plenty just on Step 1 -- because of my bad experiences regarding this at our previous school district.

Actually, what you wrote just now would be Step 2.

Here are some options I've considered: 1. Please phone me at your convenience.

2. Could you give me a call at your convenience? My number is x.

3. Could you give me a call, please? 7:30 - 9 am works best for me. My number is x.

4. On and on and on....

Sorry, for got to ping. @Tinkeringbell

so apparently I'm going to rep cap for the 5th time off that one answer

@ArtOfCode HNQ loves you

yup

3:13 PM

@aparente001 Yeah, that really makes it read like 'write my mail for me'... Sorry! I think you can ask in chat, I'd go with option 3, it's always good to have a time schedule where they can reach you

3:32 PM

@Tinkeringbell - I clearly don't have the knack of formulating a question here that will not get closed. Can you help me formulate it in a way that fits the desired format better? I would like to ask about Step 1, so that I can build on that and ask about Step 2.

3:45 PM

@aparente001 I don't think there's a way you can ask about step 1 alone, since that would be off-topic...

I can't do miracles, sorry... :(

@aparente001 It's really hard to avoid an off topic question, but maybe turn it into an etiquette question? Where the answers are supposed to tell you what pieces to include and why. Like Email etiquette: What to include in a short email requesting a phone call?. That's just an idea and it can probably be refined, but this way you may discourage people from writing that email for you.

But I guess it would still lead to such answers.

Extroverted Main Man

0

Q: How to switch conversation from language to language in peers?

I have a mixed group of friends from different countries (JP, CH, US.) I found it difficult to keep the conversation when inviting them to my house (I live in the U.S.) Certain people do not like me to speak English with them and they will not respond. Other people do not like me to speak my nati...

language language-barriers

Extroverted Main Man

4:08 PM

0

Q: Recently found out that a girl I am starting a relationship with has a boyfriend. How do I address the issue?

Context During our last year in university, this girl and I started meeting quite frequently up to the point where we both acknowledged we were something "more than friends", but we never addressed this matter formally. She was going to go abroad to do a masters degree, and shortly after she lef...

conversations romance

train, meet wreck

@ArtOfCode Off-topic 'should I do X or Y'?

aye

@JAD nice call on the relationship advice too though :)

I think I've never had as many downvotes on a meta question :( ... This is going to take a long, long time this way...

link?

nvm

found it

4:14 PM

@JAD The XYZ one... ;)

Nice name... this site has an XYZ problem XD :)

Jess has the perfect rep o.o

9001 meh

don't you meh over 9000

ahahaha didn't think of that. I concede you are right. it IS the perfect rep

B-)

IPS Comment Bot

4:16 PM

@guijareo - I'm assuming that what you're trying to ask us is how you should go about raising the topic of the relationship you guys almost had in the context of having found out that she may have moved on, correct? If you edit your question you will have brought it within scope, and you may get some good advice. — AndreiROM 53 secs ago

#11427 AndreiROM (12717 rep) | Q: Recently found out that a girl I am starting a relationship with has a boyfriend. How do I address the issue? (score: -3) | posted 19 minutes ago by guijareo (1 rep)

Matched regex(es) ["you\\W(really)?(need\\Wto|should)"]

Is there a plan to make a community wiki for the "talk with x about y" questions? If this is not the case, maiby it is a nice idea :)

not sure if it needs to be CW

@Peter Let's first determine if those questions are a problem and how we want to procede if they are ;)

I'm thinking where CW can be used in this SE :)

just because we have a hammer, doesn't mean some nails need whacking ;)

4:19 PM

@Tinkeringbell hmm yea, however I'm quite interested in a general approach, which I can use to improve talking with people :)

@JAD If everything is going to be duplicated back to that, it would only be fair. Otherwise, it's giving a very select group of users an unfair reputation advantage over others I think...

you can also try to whack one nail and see if it looks nice though

I'd see to get a question rolling first, then when/if it gains some value, turn it into CW

@Peter I don't think there will be a generic 'talk with X about Y' question... There might at least be several needed, like on persuasion, difficult conversations and boundaries..

I'm all for aiming for more fundamental questions versus problem-centered ones

4:21 PM

@JAD Yay! :)

But the policy towards required amount of details in questions kinda counteract that

@Tinkeringbell hmm, yea thats true, haven't thought about that :) @JAD jup, maiby I'll try to make one general case

@JAD yea thats what the meta thing says too

@JAD I think we should requiring 'other' details/ even more details... but I might jsut write my own answer, since not all people seem to be clear on what I'm trying to propose/achieve...

Maybe a mod or CM should chime in, because I fear for the site if this is not considered a problem ...

@Tinkeringbell you want to be the focus more on the skill instead of a specific problem right?

But well, maybe my fears are ungrounded

@Peter Exactly...

4:23 PM

@Tinkeringbell I wouldn't expect CM input

There's a lot of 'How to have this difficult conversation'... sometimes without even an 'I've already tried'...

this is something the community should hash out

@JAD Nah, too little drama for that ;)

@AnneDaunted - I like it! I'm not sure whether to edit the question or let it die and start fresh with a new question, though.

it's just not their role

4:24 PM

Just saying, it seems like the CM's I saw had some pretty clear opinions on it as well ;)

@aparente001 Does your closed question already have answers?

If there's a few privileged people around, we could quickly delete the old one for you ;)

@aparente001 I suggest a fresh start.

hmm, does someone know a nice list of skills that can be used while talking with someone?

@Peter juggling

I know lists are offtopic in SE, however I don't know any

@Peter Just wait, hold your horses... Don't go writing such questions and answers yet ;)

4:26 PM

No worries :)

What kind of conversation are you planning on having? Resources depend on that a lot :D

4:38 PM

@Tinkeringbell "We often have to poke answerers to explain how or why their solution works, and even then it doesn't become clear which Interpersonal Skill is at the bottom of the answer." So why are the questions the problem, not the answer(er)s?

@AnneDaunted Because the questions aren't asking about a skill to begin with... It's a bit like the 'Good subjective, Bad subjective' blog post, a good subjective question invites good answers

There's six points of a good subjective question there, and four are focusing on inviting the right kind of answer

I'll edit that in once I'm home ;)

5:10 PM

@aparente001 Have you communicated that you aren't comfortable discussing certain things through email? Are you comfortable saying "I would like to talk about x." over email?

5:48 PM

@Tinkeringbell Less is more, sometimes. That question appears pretty broad and received a lot of answers. Maybe pick out one or two (good) examples and make clear what you perceive to be the problem, instead of linking to a hundred different questions?

@AnneDaunted Well, the problem seems to be there are hundreds of those questions... So why not dump a list so the extent of the problem is clear? I'll probably end up writing my own answer, I'll make sure to nitpick on one or two examples then

Extroverted Main Man

-2

Q: How can I tell someone I don't like the way they speak?

I can't stand "cutesy voice". That is, people who put on a high pitched squeal when they talk, who choose to say things like "wuv" over "love" or say things that are dark in a cute way. It's made worse if these people act as though they always speak this way when they don't, or they affect the ma...

conversations acquaintances strangers

@Tinkeringbell "Well, the problem seems to be there are hundreds of those questions..." But why focus on hundreds and not on those - what is the problem with those questions, explained using one or two examples? Instead of posting all those links and then people are supposed to read through them and correctly guess the problem?

Now why in the heck did I not see a mention badge in chat..?

Yeah, it's super ironic! :-P

Badge? Floaty-number-thing.

@AnneDaunted I did summarize the problem by telling what I think was wrong with all those questions: they're not asking about a skill, just for a solution to their problem

If you're not seeing that it's okay, I'll see how to make that clearer once I get home. Mobile now, so editing is a bit difficult on a small screen since it's such a large post

5:57 PM

Interesting that it got any upvotes at all. I remember people complaining about too few questions and now you want to get rid of IPS's main source of questions.

@AnneDaunted The problem is that they're all the same question.

[They do not move.]

Right now I'm having to ask "What's wrong with just saying that to them?" multiple times each day.

The answer to these questions could be copy pasted with a different example each time.

They're in different situations but they're having the exact same problem.

It'd be like someone asking on SO "How do I print Hello world?", "How do I print This is my first program?" and "How do I print Spam, eggs, ham, and spam?"

@sphennings I'm not talking about the questions, but Tinkeringbell's meta question and how to, maybe, improve it a bit (in my opinion).

They should be marked duplicates of "how do I print strings?"

6:02 PM

Sure, if you want to ignore the context and nuances that make the difference between handling a situation well, and well, not.

@apaul If they want to discuss the nuance they should write their question to focus on the nuance.

Sometimes there is real nuance to explore.

Sometimes they need to be told about basic communication techniques.

@sphennings Just trying to point out that people aren't computers. You don't get the same output every time you offer the same input.

Even computers aren't always like that ;-)

@apaul I completely agree. That's why I'm really bothered by editing "How do I get someone to do x?" to "How do I talk to someone about x?"

So, asking about a situation with a parent, is going to be very different than asking about the same situation with a co-worker. Yes the answers will apply very similar communication skills, but the devil is in the details.

6:07 PM

@apaul If I applied the skills I now use with my coworkers to dealing with my parents when I was a teenager I wouldn't have gotten into so many arguments with them.

@apaul The OP needs to focus on the details for us to be able to answer questions about them.

@sphennings Can't really have it both ways though, can we?

@apaul We close "how do I talk to someone about x?" as a duplicate. If they edit the question to focus on the specifics then we reopen it.

@sphennings Good luck.

Do we want to generalize questions into broad canonical dup targets, or do we want really very specific questions that are somewhat redundant in theme?

@apaul We should create dupe targets for the questions that don't show their research and aren't unique. We then encourage people who aren't satisfied with general advice to edit their questions to be about something more specific.

If I want to break up with my partner, while I do need to "Use my words" there's more going on than just that. I could ask how to make it clear that my desire to break up with them is a unilateral decision, that's not open for discussion, and I need them to respect that.

6:17 PM

Is a goal not already required?

@apaul Part of my philosophy about SE is that if in the process of making a question that works for the site you answer your own question, that's the site working as intended.

@sphennings Showing research is a pretty common trap on SE... I take your point some things are common enough that we could easily dump them in the same bin, but we should probably be cautious about how we go about making policy about it.

@AnneDaunted There are a lot of goals that are very non-specific. There are also times where in the process of asking for a more specific question it comes out that they're asking for something completely different.

Policy anybody with sufficient rep for close/reopen votes cares (or knows) about.

Last night someone asked about how to tell their girlfriend of 8 years that they were on different paths.

Everybody who read that thought that the OP wanted to break up with their girlfriend.

It was only after asking "Why don't you just tell her that you want to break up with her?" that it came out that the real issue was that he had only dated her and was feeling some doubts because he had no-one to compare her with.

He wanted to keep dating her and was wanting to know how to have a conversation with his girlfriend about this without causing her to worry about him wanting to break up with him.

6:21 PM

So what is the problem now - that it's about problems, not skills? about always the same problems? about unclear/missing goals? etc.

I guess the anarchist in me recoils at the idea of trying to separate shades of grey into black and white.

@sphennings XY problems are a pretty common thing.

@apaul It's not a new close reason. There's plenty of room to discuss/disagree about which questions should be duped or not.

@apaul That was just a wording problem.

I think there was a translation issue.

@sphennings That's pretty common too.

I'm talking about creating a mechanism so that we don't have to re-explain basic conversational skills in every answer. I'm all for reopening questions that show some effort and focus on something specific.

I've also noticed a cyclical pattern of moderation on SE... Someone comes up with a new thing to watch for or a new way to solve an old problem, the community has a knee jerk reaction and hammers on the issue till the moderation becomes more of a problem than the problem they were trying to address, so things ease off for a bit. Rinse and repeat.

6:26 PM

@sphennings that. It's not about closing or duping every question, it's about asking what have you tried, why are you asking here... What skill would you like to be helped with

So you are trying the balancing act between Interpersonal problems and Intrapersonal Skills?

@apaul For me right now, the number of new questions that could be answered with "Use your big <insert gender here> words." is frustratingly high.

@AnneDaunted I think that any intrapersonal skills questions should be closed as off topic.

@sphennings That's true, but are we going to swing too far in the other direction and start swatting flies with sledge hammers?

Scratch that, I didn't read the intra

@Tinkeringbell Sorry, that was mean (but unintentional)

6:30 PM

@Tinkeringbell That's an alternative strategy. I think that requires a lot more effort. It also leaves questions open while the OP is trying to figure out what they're trying to ask.

@AnneDaunted Don't worry... I should get some new glasses XD

I just fear that it could skip too much into the intra-direction, like in the beginning of IPS

I think that we should still comment on answers that we are duplicating suggesting that they can edit their question to improve it.

@AnneDaunted well, asking a question would then certainly require an amount of introspection, but it shouldn't end up asking us to solve intrapersonal problems either..

@Tinkeringbell That's the balancing act I meant

6:32 PM

@AnneDaunted I wasn't around for the beginning of IPS. Why do you think that this would lead to more intrapersonal skills questions.

I think it is quite hard to pin down a skill, so if I would try to pin down a skill I would start by myself and not at relations etc. I could be wrong here though :)

I don't think it's useful to attempt to name and distinguish between different interpersonal skills.

@AnneDaunted Yeah, that will be tricky, but not impossible I think

What I mentioned in that mean comment above were the the evils of IPS. The problems (because you have them so you are looking at IPS for a solution) and the intrapersonal skills, because you know how you could solve the problem, but can't quite get yourself to implement it (be honest, apologize, tell them how it made you feel etc.).

@AnneDaunted That could be a problem but if someone is asking "how can I bring myself to tell the truth to my partner?" I think we already have a recourse to that which is closing it as off topic.

6:37 PM

@sphennings For sure, closing it is not a problem, but work out the difference and make it clear to others - the OP's, but also all the users with enough rep to vote to close/reopen.

I think the site as a whole could be better at communicating to new users why their questions are being put on hold and their answers deleted.

CHICAGO - Hard To Say I'm Sorry

hey I know that song :)

IPS Comment Bot

7:20 PM

@peufeu You agree with Catija that I'm putting words in OP's mouth? I really just moved around her own sentences, I promise. Please check the edit history. If you think the changes I made are inappropriate, definitely roll them back or propose new edits --- I was just trying to make OP's question more easily identifiable, I certainly did not intend to alter its meaning. Regarding how OP should respond to this situation, I would love for you to write an answer from your perspective. It might provide a valuable alternative to the approach I suggest. — Rose Hartman 1 min ago

#11339 Rose Hartman (1562 rep) | Q: Accused of Racism at Work (score: 5) | posted 2 days ago by Stacy (92 rep) | edited 3 hours ago by Rose Hartman (1562 rep)

Matched regex(es) ["possible-aic"]

Extroverted Main Man

0

Q: How do you politely tell someone they smell bad?

Body odour can be offensive. Some people appear to be oblivious the the fact that their BO lingers even after they leave a room. It's not like they're just getting out of the gym or anything, they're showing up at social function dressed up and smelling bad. How do you approach someone and tell t...

1

Q: Polite way to request more "elbow room" in open-plan office?

My workplace subscribes to a startup mentality and our seating is made up of long double-sided tables that are each five "desk" pieces locked together end-to-end. Anyone is free to sit where they like and move chairs around as desired. As an introvert and someone used to a lot of elbow room, I fi...

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8:09 PM

May I suggest a new icebreaker tag, for questions like

96

Q: How to talk to a girl who's sitting next to me but wearing headphones?

Over the past couple of weeks, there's been this really cute girl who sits near me inside a coffee shop, which has a cozy, "productive" vibe to it -- everyone's doing work on their laptops. I want to start a conversation with this girl, but there's one significant obstacle: she's always wearing ...

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144

Q: How to ask cashier out for date

I am 21 years old and living in a large city in Germany where smalltalk in local markets is not a common thing. A new cashier joined my local food shop. She’s always at the checkout and never doing stuff like sorting products or cleaning the floor where I could actually ask her out. I am quite n...

germany romance customer-interactions

or maybe self-introductions?

@200_success Neither of those are really appropriate tags for those questions.

1 hour later…

9:23 PM

would a question asking about how to better make eye contact with people during a conversation, e.g. an interview or a date, be on-topic here?

maybe some people can give some useful techniques

@D.Hutchinson That sounds like a good topic for here. There may even be a question or two like that already.

Have you searched for related questions? Pretty sure that's come up before.

Have not searched :(

I'll do that now ...

Make sure you're asking about the interpersonal aspect of eye contact not the intrapersonal aspect of it.

A simple search for 'eye contact' brings me 140 results

9:34 PM

I have just finished my short story: interpersonal.meta.stackexchange.com/a/2565/1599...

I'll be here for 10 more minutes to answer the most urgent questions, after that I'm going to sleep.

Okay, I don't believe that upvote. It's way too long to have been read entirely by now XD

Bo- Prolonged eye contact

2 hours later…

11:24 PM

I'm gonna retire from IPS once I get to 2k rep :)

4

user15026

11:41 PM

...okay

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