The Awkward Silence

HDE 226868

12:13 AM

I kind of wish I had a better idea of how to ask questions that push the scope envelope.

Hamlet

@HDE226868 so I have some more ideas about back it up; either you'll find them helpful or you won't.

HDE 226868

@Hamlet I'm all ears.

Hamlet

You need to follow three steps to have a back it up policy.

2

1. You need to decide how you want to apply that policy to the culture of this site. Meta is useful for this.

Whatever philosophy you come up with needs to be simple and easy to understand.

2. You need to write some answers that exemplify how the back it up rule should be applied to this site. This is so you have examples of what a good answer looks like to show people.

3. You need to start leaving constructive comments on and downvoting answers that don't meet the back it up philosophy. This will be a lot of answers.

This is where it's important for whatever your specific version of the back it up policy to be simple; if it's not simple, the comments you leave wont make sense.

Zizouz212

Point to add: when you write answers, they need to be on a diverse range of questions - not just particular topics

Hamlet

If you do this, you'll alienate a big chunk of the community members of this site. If you don't do this, this site won't make the internet a better place.

And doing this requires leadership. So people need to step up.

HDE 226868

12:20 AM

@Hamlet (Starred, by the way.) I think you're right, and I think that applies to quite a few differently possible policies for anyone site - though especially this. IMHO, I think your second step is the most important. It's best to lead by example.

That (and Step 3) are how we made the hard-science policy on Worldbuilding work a little - certainly more than when it was first conceived and implemented.

Hamlet

@HDE226868 I did a bad job of encouraging a back it up policy on Mythology; but I'm doing a much better job on Literature -- still not perfect or even good but better.

HDE 226868

Now, that's a minor change compared to the issue here, of course.

@Hamlet I've been watching from afar, and I concur.

Hamlet

I think this would all be easier if Stack Exchange added a way to "close" answers that don't follow back it up.

HDE 226868

I think it matters more on Lit than on Mythology because it's so easy to write poor analyses of literature that sound right but aren't.

Zizouz212

@Hamlet When we get mods, you can add post notices to answers that can signal that

Hamlet

12:23 AM

There's a close feature for questions, so people learn to use it to close questions that aren't suitable. If there was a close feature for answers.

HDE 226868

@Zizouz212 I've been considering that.

Hamlet

@Zizouz212 yeah, but the culture around post notices is that you need a huge amount of community buy in. People want to let the votes decide, which isn't enough.

Gypsy Spellweaver

@Hamlet Don't forget that "back it up" was pointless for the beginnings of SE. If it worked it was right, if it didn't it was wrong. No "authority" was needed/

Zizouz212

But that ties into your leadership thing, it will probably be one of the only effective tools you will have

Hamlet

Closing questions is built in with the software, it comes at the start of private beta, so people learn how to apply it to the site.

HDE 226868

12:25 AM

One issue I've seen with answer quality is that it's easier for crappy answers to slide in for any question once enough previous answers have been accumulated.

Fewer people see the new ones, so fewer people are prepared to comment and/or vote.

Zizouz212

But not only that, but votes here are "I agree - this will work" so stuff will be hard

Hamlet

@Zizouz212 We don't use post notices over at Lit.

Zizouz212

^^

Hamlet

But post notices are kind of useless; they're just glorified comments.

If, for example, a post notice moved an answer to the bottom of a page...

Then it would actually be a useful tool.

HDE 226868

@Zizouz212 The one thing I don't like about post notices in this case is that while it gives the weight of authority, it's not coming from the community.

The community has to back this policy up.

Hamlet

12:27 AM

@HDE226868 Well, as a user you are empowered to downvote and leave comments.

That's how it starts out.

Zizouz212

That's fair, but I fear that you'll have the majority of the community against you.

Votes here symbolize different things.

Hamlet

You won't get 100% buy in from the community. You'll maybe get 50%.

Zizouz212

I don't even think it will get 50%

And that is where significant issues can start

Hamlet

But you don't need community consensus to leave constructive comments about how to improve answers.

(someone star that last message).

HDE 226868

@Hamlet I'll bet ~33% at the start, 67% if it works over time.

@Hamlet Certainly, and that's arguably one of the best courses of action here.

That's how I've seen stuff like this happen before.

Zizouz212

12:29 AM

If people will be serious about actually implementing this, then you're going to need a lot of commitment by the community. I know I'm being awfully pessimistic about gathering support, but I fear that this will all be difficult to reverse.

Hamlet

@HDE226868 but remember, the people who don't want to write good answers/improve their answers probably won't stick around anyway once the novelty of the beta wears off.

@Zizouz212 again, you don't need community consensus to leave constructive comments about how to improve answers.

Here are the three steps again:

1. Come up with a simple way of explaining how to write answers that follow the back it up rule.

Zizouz212

I realize that, but many of these answers are likely to be highly upvoted

Sorry, I'll be quiet.

Hamlet

@Zizouz212 we have that problem over at lit.

Not really sure what to say other than (1) this is Stack Exchange's fault for not doing a better job of getting "back it up" going right from the start of a beta, and (2) you can't do anything about old content, focus on new content.

HDE 226868

Here's a proposed (generic, for now) comment I have. Does anyone have some feedback?

> This answer doesn't seem to [back up](Link to page of choice) its conclusions well enough. A good experience-based answer should explain the experience, and how it leads to the conclusions drawn therein. Please edit this answer to better Back It Up.

Zizouz212

explain from experience :)

How are you proposing to compose the back it up policy though?

Hamlet

12:35 AM

> This answer doesn't seem to [back up](Link to page of choice) its conclusions well enough. If you're writing from experience, it's not enough to say "I have experience with x, listen to me." You have to explain how you obtained your experience in x, why you think your experience in x is applicable to the OP's situation, and what you think will happen if the OP implements your advice.

But I'm horrible at writing these sorts of comments.

Some advice I've gotten is to frame comments in terms of you not understanding the answer, i.e. you've failed, not that the person who wrote the answer failed.

@HDE226868 I'm not really sure what you mean by "explain the experience". What experience. Also, if I'm the person who wrote the answer I'm probably not sure what an "experience-based answer" is.

Zizouz212

Here's another thing to keep in mind - how will you judge experience? I will have different experiences than you, and others may actually "downgrade" others' experiences.

Hamlet

@Zizouz212 well, it's not just enough to have experience, you need to explain why your experience is applicable.

Zizouz212

That brings me to another issue - the questions. These questions need to be specific to what kind of stuff is happening. And I know there's a lot of crap that comes from private betas, but we also need to get better questions - a back it up policy and better questions need to come together.

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