The Awkward Silence

4:44 AM

This night I had an idea that would have fix all our HNQ problem. But then I woke up and completely forgot about it... (that was probably some dream non-sense but it's still frustration ><)

Ah, now I remember about it! It was just to ask for a direct link to IPS in the HNQ barre (bar?) while we were under the "HNQ ban". Probably not that awesome of an idea but still not worthless

ElizB

I'd have to agree that it's something, but I can see some issues arising, like why just IPS, and not other sites that are not in HNQ either? I'm too tired now to think of others but I will sleep on it. I've been talking to hubby and really reading up on not just this issue but the last time this happened.

Noon

@ElizB Because we are the only one that are definitively banned from HNQ? I agree that some other site (Veganism & Vegetarianism) can really use some publicity but they aren't banned, they just don't have controversial enough question.

JAD

5:22 AM

@Noon the HNQ works because it shows interesting titles/clickbait. A simple link to the frontpage wouldn't compare I'm afraid

Noon

@JAD Yeah but it would still be better than nothing :(

Magisch

my 2c is that the automatic hotness score is a bit bad in general, it's self reinforcing and optimizes for controversy (many answers)

JAD

yeah, I liked the suggestion of excluding votes coming from HNQ for the score

Magisch

they ought to replace it with a system for site members to nominate a question as good with some process, and HNQ then gets picked from those

but with the feature backlog being as it is right now I expect ips to just stay off HNQ for a couple months and then maybe something happening mid next year

maybe

Noon

+1

ElizB

5:27 AM

Yeah. I read up a lot of the blogs that eclipse this issue, and the first blog is pretty long and describes SO's issues well, but uses rather harsh words, but for good reason

Noon

@ElizB What are we talking about here?

ElizB

I'm not gonna get into those details for now I was thinking of asking one of the mods to give a gist of what's going on

Magisch

@ElizB Monica's?

ElizB

Hers covers the response well, yes. It's 1:30 am here, I would love to continue this when I am much more awake :)

Noon

Well then, good night :)

ElizB

5:30 AM

You too :)

Noon

Well, I already sleeped but thanks :P

(it's 7:30 am here)

El'endia Starman

(To be clear, ElizB is talking about both this recent HNQ situation and the prior instance of Twitter-driven development, which was the whole welcome wagon + code of conduct stuff.)

Magisch

5:42 AM

I was semi-fine with the CoC stuff because they at least solicited and selectively applied community feedback throughout

JAD

@Magisch similar to how they now solicit feedback on HNQ, after acting on it

Magisch

the coc was put in after 2 rounds of feedback tho

JAD

after forcing the Welcome Wagon down our throats

Journeyman Geek

@Magisch @JAD I feel there's actually a much broader issue

Magisch

baby steps, this time was worse

Journeyman Geek

5:45 AM

@Magisch actually I feel that's the same mistake SE's making - its not about the incidents

its about the broader relationship between the network and company

JAD

good point

I'm not around long enough to judge how much different that was before

El'endia Starman

The way I explained it to ElizB was that the main problem with the welcome wagon stuff was that it was thrust upon the SE network all of a sudden, prompted by a relative "outsider" (at the very least, not via Meta). But it and what followed was generally a good thing, at least? With this HNQ issue, an entire site was negatively affected because of someone who wasn't involved in SE at all and did not demonstrate good intentions (unlike the first one).

And the fact that the change was made within 40 minutes pissed people off because the community asked for it and that change could've been made long ago, but it happened because of someone not involved in the community.

Journeyman Geek

@El'endiaStarman or "We don't really talk any more"

El'endia Starman

Well, in any case, I believe we're supposed to get another in-depth response on it tomorrow (Monday/Tuesday)? Not sure how well-known that is.

Journeyman Geek

@El'endiaStarman oh?

these conversations are awkward ><

El'endia Starman

5:56 AM

Yeah, indeed.

JAD

remember that MSE post during the 2016 elections by SE mods?

El'endia Starman

Not really, no...

JAD

I can't find the post anymore, but they used MSE as a soapbox to speak out against Trump as a candidate

mentioning it as it was another example of mixing up SE as a company and the network itself

Rob

What do you mean be SE mods? Employees?

Journeyman Geek

eh

@JAD so, here's the thing

JAD

6:00 AM

@Rob IIRC, it was Joel, but I can't find it anymore

Journeyman Geek

I don't really care about Joel's use of SE as a soapbox for his political views. He's welcome to that.

Probably MSO

Rob

@JAD Are you talking about the take a stand post? Yeah, that caught a huge amount of flak. But that's a bit different, in my eyes

JAD

@Rob yeah, that's the one

Journeyman Geek

I'm not american. I don't have any say in who you elect, and I do think stuff like that's the 'human' face of the company.

JAD

@JourneymanGeek The problem many had with that is that a statement like that on MSE carries the weight of the network, while not necessarily the entire network agrees with that.

Journeyman Geek

6:04 AM

@JAD honestly I think that's a distraction.

JAD

fair enough

Journeyman Geek

As is the welcome wagon and related drama.

or even the new theme drama.

JAD

well, it's in the past

Journeyman Geek

So, I've been here for 8 years.

9?

Quite a few years

I really feel with stuff like this, that there's a disconnect with the community, and the resources for it are not really sufficient.

People arn't mad cause SE's responding to twitter. People are mad cause SE is responding to twitter, while asking us to be patient cause "we have other priorities", sometimes asking for the same things.

gparyani

The reason why SE responds more to social media rather than meta, is the same reason why airline customer service is often better over social media than over the phone or in person.

JAD

6:11 AM

but just because it's perfectly explainable, doesn't mean people have to like the explanation

Rob

@gparyani Yes, both are to avoid bad publicity... But the similarities end there

Magisch

@JourneymanGeek Thats a self reinforcing problem

people get incensed and lash out when they do talk to us, so they talk to us less

Journeyman Geek

@Magisch On the other hand

Monica is angry

I'm .. angry.

Magisch

I know, but still. Color me cautiously pessimistic

Journeyman Geek

@Magisch and here's a thing

If we arn't telling them how we're unhappy, how will they know?

Magisch

6:23 AM

@JourneymanGeek I do think they know

they might just not do anything about it

Journeyman Geek

@Magisch ehhh, kinda

gparyani

Guess I was right about their unwillingness to handle certain things the whole time.

El'endia Starman

I think it's too early to say for sure.

They messed up bad by moving too fast the first time (removing IPS from HNQ) and they really don't want to mess up again by moving too fast to "fix" things.

Journeyman Geek

@El'endiaStarman I think seeing the big picture about the network would help a lot

besides, they got us to help, right? ;)

Magisch

let me just say I dont envy tim post right now

as easy as it is to make suggestions on how to handle this from the sidelines, it's probably a lot more complex under the hood and not as straightforward

Journeyman Geek

6:36 AM

@Magisch well, that's an assumption we all make

gparyani

A long time before this incident, I had already lost trust in SE's ability to handle things on meta quickly.

Journeyman Geek

and we're somewhat mindful of when critiquing

They're good people

Magisch

yeah

I just assume all of them meant well, they just didn't end up doing well in this instance

Journeyman Geek

So we owe them consideration

but at the same time, well

@Magisch I think a critical thing is we can't really just look at isolated instances of things happening

I think an essential thing I'd like to see (well other than the big X mas present so to speak) is that SE realises they need to, and have to talk to us about stuff like this

We'll help!

El'endia Starman

They could even ask questions on IPS about phrasing and how to approach us! :P

Journeyman Geek

6:40 AM

ooh

Magisch

on that note:

There is no doubt we've stopped making changes for core users and your observations about how that's gotten worse ring true to me. And we've certainly seen negative feedback on meta (downvotes being the most trivial). The result may not be what you hope for, however. Often (and more often recently) I've heard colleagues dismiss meta feedback. Nobody wants to listen to relentless negativity. Hence this meta post written in the dead of night so I can finally sleep. As an intermediary between the community and the company, I'd like to help meta feedback be less easily ignorable. — Jon Ericson ♦ Aug 19 at 15:47

Journeyman Geek

@Magisch I've defended the new design to a big extent

I did kinda vaguely was the voice behind getting one changed (and I'm happy we kept the WB bot)

also

honest positive criticism] is rare

and insanely hard

Mithrandir

7:08 AM

<-- does not want to be awake

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