R.I.P.

@Buffy Dragons everywhere cried today.

Truly

Ged is wearing black also.

103, wow!

ikr

So rare to hear.

Inching closer to 500 questions :)

I'm proud of the high overall quality on the site, and proud to be social with its members.

@BenI. I do believe the mods here have done very well to keep the site a place to be proud of.

This question needs (desperately) a better title line: cseducators.stackexchange.com/questions/4241/…

Can "pedagogy" mean "opinion"? @Buffy

Like schools of thought.

My objection is that there is no substantive word in the title signifying the content of the question. Will the next question be "How about this?" or "Is this a good idea?"

The title given could be about literally anything.

I mean, he's asking for an opinion.

Yes, but not purely. Evaluation is possible. There can be a "correct" answer.

I agree the title is useless.

Completely uninformative.

Un searchable.

Un categorizable.

Any more advice for @Jenny on her new question? Tutoring. I think it is out of scope but could be fixed.

@BenI. or @thesecretmaster. Maybe it would be good to invite @Jenny here and enable her participation. See her question, which I edited. cseducators.stackexchange.com/q/4249/1293

@BenI. Nice update to the title of the first program question.

:D

Nice.

@Jenny I'm setting up your access so that you can come and chat about your question. Both to get help with your problem, and to get help setting up the question for the site itself. Give me a moment, and I'll send another message with a link.

The "of" seems to not be needed, imho

@Jenny Okay, you should have access now. Come on by! Click on this message, and then click on "join the room".

hmm, which "of"

In the new title

@Jenny If that doesn't work for you, write a comment on your question about it. I'll keep an eye out there.

@skullpatrol Ah. fixed

@Buffy I was about to get that "in" as well :)

@BenI. I'm going to need to run in a few minutes (prepare for Tai Chi). I hope you have some time if @Jenny shows up.

@BenI. Yeah. Too early in the morning for rational analysis.

I don't have a ton of time, but I can give it a few minutes I'm sure

So "pedagogical" reasoning is reasoning based on a certain school of opinion based thought? @Buffy

Pedagogy is the art of teaching.

So a pedagogical reason to do something would be a teaching reason.

Not unlike scatalogical

rolls eyes Oh, you.

We find fun where we can at my age

So, @skullpatrol, it might make sense in a classroom to put some very bad code up as an example. The danger that students might try to emulate it would be overridden by a pedagogical reason, which is that we need to discuss a certain logical flaw.

ok

I just computed my age as about 920.

dog years?

:-)

Lunar cycles. I'm a druid, of course.

No, he's just bad at math.

No, it was quite precise.

So how many full moons?

How does @Jenny's question seem now?

It's missing, at the very least, what topics she needs to study (or felt behind on)

Second paragraph? Need more?

Hi @BenI.

Hey, Jenny!

Welcome to Computer Science Educators :)

@buffy are you still around, or have you gone to class?

So, Jenny, you're enrolled in an undergraduate program?

Hi @Jenny welcome

Here for a few minutes.

... but Jenny is gone :)

@Buffy What did you want to go over with her?

Actually, I was just hoping to have some others throw in ideas that might refine the question a bit for her - and to get her engaged here, of course.

My edit pretty much used up my ideas.

I tried to ping her :(

@BenI. Making it too detailed might lessen its usefulness for future visitors.

@skullpatrol You can reply to her message, and that will ping her.

@Buffy have you ever tried to explain why 0.999... = 1 to a novice?

yes.

did it work?

Let x = .999...

Yeah, that's the standard algebraic proof.

What is your opinion about getting students to think about the numbers used in elementary algebra as being pictured as points on a number line; and then asking them to graph 0.999... and 1.000... then ask them to write down the "number" in between them? If no number can be found they must be the same.

then compute 10*x - x and look at what you have i.e. 9*x = 9. So x = 1. Do the same thing now with 1/7.

Though you need to multiply by a higher power of 10.

Note that this example complicates the cantor diagonalization proof that the reals aren't countable.

If you need to get that far.

Perhaps @Jenny is satisfied.

Noted :-)

I always used the proof that 1/3 + 1/3 + 1/3 = 1, while 0.333... + 0.333... + 0.333... = 0.999....

Have to be careful. Some students will think .333... = 4 if you aren't careful (with the whole topic).

What about my argument above? @Buffy

The real understanding is that .9999... is just a notational artifact of the fact that we are using base 10.

It is fine if you want to think about Dedekind cuts or infinite series. But it is a demonstration, not a proof.

Come to think about it, is 0.3333.... 1 in base 4? (As in, does this artifact apply to all bases?) My instinct is that it is, and that it would.

Off to teach. I'll be away for a while. Keep having fun.

cya

My class is about to come in as well.

i.e. rackin' rep.

But Jenny is back!!

Hi again @Ben, I can't get things to work in the app so I'm on the full site on my mobile.

Oh, that makes more sense :)

@Jenny we need to go do work. One of more of us will be back in an hour or so. Don't get lost.

Unfortunately, now I'm scrambling to get myself set up for the students who are about to arrive.

Don't worry. I'll be back later @BenI.@buffy

hi @BenI. - no I actually already have a B.Sc Psychology, I enrolled on pre-M.Sc in Human Media Interaction in Europe. This is the stuff that is needed for the 1st module.

I'm back too.

Is your new goal related to the Psych?

kind of, I want to pursue a full M.Sc in Human Media Interaction >> a great combination of Psych and Programming / computer science.

Is the psych stuff research or clinical based?

@Jenny I think the way the question is now stated you are likely to get answers more about online resources than other things. I think wikipedia is good for technical answers in maths but lacks the exercises that will probably give you insight. Some text books have a lot of exercises with answers in the back so you can check yourself but I don't have current resources to help.

Depending on your university (I'm assuming UK) you might be able to find a student resource office that can provide tutorial help - usually an advanced undergraduate possibly paid by the U.

It wasn't a UK university, and I've already tried that route - it's not available. Wikipedia is good to a point, I'm getting better a Google but what I need is someone willing to work through the exercises with me and provide more example at the appropriate level.

@Buffy, I'm not doing a Psych course, that part may come later in to the course, at the moment we're focusing on set theory / counting and proofs

What kinds of proofs?

@Jenny I meant your older degree. I was thinking of you offering services on, say, research projects in exchange for tutorial help (and maybe making a bit of money).

I'm guessing you have skills (mad skilz) that apply in your new pursuits.

Oh, a trade!

Maybe. Just a thought.

@Jenny can you say which university? I know quite a lot of people.

Twente in the Netherlands, I'm no longer in the Nl though, I'm back home in the UK.

As a distance student?

@Buffy - if anyone was interested in my SPSS or research writing skills, I'd be willing to trade but they are in no way comparable to the level I require in Discrete Maths.

I wouldn't worry about the level, but about making the contacts.

@Buffy - no I went to live there, I had to return home when I graded out by doing terribly in an exam, the university is willing to have me back IF I can work on my maths / programming skills

In some ways even easier - if you have a time period in which you can concentrate on just coming up to speed.

the programming isn't too much of a problem (CS50 WOOHOO) but the maths is more difficult since so few people know this stuff.

@Buffy - yes, that's the hope.

Willing to say which city you are located in (not stalking - promise).

@buffy - you wouldn't believe how many tutors I'm speaking too via other methods, who say this stuff is not in their remit, they tutor A'level or pure mathematics, they don't want to have to re-learn stuff to tutor.

@Buffy - I'm in the UK - Lancashire area, you're welcome to stalk me haha, but I do charge a fee. I'd prefer online to be honest

@Jenny With their attitudes you probably don't want them anyway.

@Buffy - I wish I could be fussy, my last one dumped me because he's become busy with A'level students (UK exam are looming). He wasn't the greatest at explaining and apparently proofs was his limit.

Guess I'm a lousy matchmaker. I don't know anyone nearby (nor have I even visited).

@BenI. Is the mathematics site happy to take questions on book recommendations for self-learners? I'm thinking a book with lots of exercises and provided solutions. There must be such. Some undergrad texts must be like that.

Actually books or websites that let you solve problems and give feedback.

@Jenny I teach that stuff :P

This book is a classic:amazon.com/Finite-Mathematics-Business-Applications-Kemeny/dp/…

Matheducators also has a self-learning tag, and a resource-request tag to boot.

It has lots and lots of problems, but, alas, no solutions.

@BenI. Anything you don't teach???

@Jenny Buffy and I are in this room basically all the time, and we usually have too much time on our hands anyway, so if you ever need help, you can always feel welcome to come by.

Don't let the title throw you on the Kemeny book. It was the book for one of the first courses in my pure math doctorate.

@BenI. We have a 5-6 hour time difference though: East coast US for us.

And the Kemeny book is one of the few that sits on the small bookcase next to my elbow here.

I taught myself that stuff, so my materials were scattered. I used Computer Science and Computer Science Educators pretty heavily while I was doing it, though.

Kemeny sounds like a great resource.

Actually I have the answer key somewhere I think. But I'd guess it is impossible to find.

Lemme look online.

@Buffy - book purchased - thank you. @Ben - I wish you were here! 5-6 hours is pretty harsh going. I'll be back again to get advice. Hopefully the other feelers I've put out will come to something.

@Jenny I didn't find the answer key online. And i doubt prentice-hall still publishes it. But if you know a few crotchety old maths profs at nearby universities you might be able to borrow one.

@Jenny Look at eBay: ebay.com/itm/…

Says it ships to us, but there may be others. My search was "Kemeny, Finite Mathematics, Solutions" This was the first hit.

But note that Kemeny has other books with Finite Mathematics in title. Maybe a bit "easier" than this one.

I actually met Kemeny and worked in his department for a bit, though he was mostly retired by then.

I just posted a companion question that might lead to answers similar to what we came up with here @Jenny and @BenI.: cseducators.stackexchange.com/questions/4252/…

And an answer summarizing what we did here.

@thesecretmaster take a look please and let me know if you think it is off topic. It could be migrated to math ed, perhaps, but read my tag wiki first.

math educators doesn't have a tag of finite-mathematics (neither did we until just now).