The Restaurant at the End of the Universe

12:00 PM

The user would then go to C

And everything is the same.

I figured on the bottom of the matter it might be another case of "why was this closed as duplicate of this entirely unrelated question".

Jenayah

@NapoleonWilson ask for a Paint hand-drawn schema :D

Edlothiad

That process of steps seemed incredibly logical

Alex

@Edlothiad But everything's not the same because the answers at C don't answer A.

Edlothiad

I'm not sure how that's relevant to what I'm pointing out. But sure.

Alex

12:01 PM

It's relevant because your process wouldn't work.

Edlothiad

No... it definitely does end up with the exact same situation we're in now.

Alex

@Edlothiad Well I did argue that the situation we're in now is not good either, as a question is closed as a duplicate of a question that it's not a duplicate of, and whose answers don't answer it.

Edlothiad

@Alex Guess we'll agree to disagree

Napoleon Wilson

It is certainly very different from general SE policy, intentionally so even, and has caused many heated debates. That makes it quite peculiar to me. Unless I'm missing something about the tone of "peculiar".

Jenayah

<10k question, what eventually happened to that Thanos/Obadiah question?

Edlothiad

12:14 PM

@Jenayah OP deleted it

TheLethalCarrot

@Jenayah OP deleted it

Lol

Jenayah

ok!

Edlothiad

There's no need to make it obvious we're the same person...

TheLethalCarrot

There's no need to make it obvious we're the same person...

Oh wait.. :/

Edlothiad

:/

Napoleon Wilson

12:14 PM

Wait, is Thanos Obadiah Stane?

Jenayah

@NapoleonWilson yeah, that one

which is... obviously wrong, but well

Napoleon Wilson

Hah, I made that up!

Jenayah

?

Edlothiad

It certainly is different to how other sites handle their duplicates. But given the current quoted policy is an answer from a Community Moderator, I'm not sure what makes it particularly off.

Jenayah

I'm lost

Napoleon Wilson

12:16 PM

I didn't know that was the question. That was just the first thought that sprang to my mind.

Edlothiad

Seems if the Community Moderators are fine with us handling things in that way there shouldn't be anything wrong with that. Especially given the default duplicate closure message supports the method.

Napoleon Wilson

They...kind of look similar, too.

Jenayah

@NapoleonWilson oh, alright

@NapoleonWilson generic villain-looking face

TheLethalCarrot

@NapoleonWilson The Q was based solely on the premise that they look similar

Napoleon Wilson

@Edlothiad It's the surrounding situation and discussions that are, and I'd dare to say indubitably, quite off.

TheLethalCarrot

12:17 PM

@NapoleonWilson I'd agree with you there but probably not for the same reasons

Napoleon Wilson

And it's quite off compared to the general network policy. Of course that doesn't make it automatically wrong, especially on this site. But it makes it off when compared thereto, at least.

Jenayah

@NapoleonWilson I don't understand that, could you rephrase please? :)

Napoleon Wilson

@Edlothiad Well, the most-voted answer by a Community Manager does quite disagree with how SciFi does it. But it's true, it's not like they're hell-bent on preventing SciFi to go their own way here. Noone says you're not allowed to handle duplicates in a special way.

Edlothiad

I don't think it disagrees, but I'm not here to have a discussion on the matter.

Napoleon Wilson

@Jenayah Hmm, maybe. Also similar haircuts, though. And that stern face.

Edlothiad

12:21 PM

Bald?

Napoleon Wilson

Largely, yes.

@Edlothiad I know you don't. And I...wasn't either going to have that discussion. ;-)

Edlothiad

Unsure what the wink represents, but I'm glad we agree.

Rand al'Thor

10 messages deleted

Napoleon Wilson

Well, a wink. ;-)

Rand al'Thor

The odd thing about that CM post is that people keep interpreting it in wildly different ways.

Jenayah

12:26 PM

Which post are we talking about?

Rand al'Thor

I suspect part of the reason might be that people are still in the mindset of the previous SFF duplication policy, and don't want to worry about changing the open/closed status of old questions, so they interpret the new post as not changing anything.

Jenayah

(if it's not touchy to link it)

Rand al'Thor

@Jenayah This one.

Jenayah

thanks

Napoleon Wilson

@Randal'Thor It's also kind of a sudden wake-up call coming from the (somewhat) outside, rather than a natural development of the community evolving their ways from the inside. That's naturally harder to swallow, especially when there is already a certain degree of distrust for outsiders and CMs.

TheLethalCarrot

12:29 PM

We're the two best friends that anyone could have

Edlothiad

HA! *dab city*

Napoleon Wilson

When then adding Shog's penchant for metaphors and sometimes maybe assuming too much context knowledge among the audience for his wordplays and analogies, that might increase potential for misunderstandings.

Edlothiad

Rand al'Thor

@NapoleonWilson Well, the community didn't have to vote for the post if they didn't like it. It's true that the answer comes from a non-SFF person, but it still became SFF consensus due to the voting on it.

Edlothiad

@TheLethalCarrot Rotational symmetry

Rand al'Thor

12:30 PM

@NapoleonWilson Yeah.

Napoleon Wilson

@Randal'Thor Unless you take Shog's very own advice and don't go just looking for meta votes when assessing consensus. ;-)

(Not that the answer doesn't make sense in itself.)

Rand al'Thor

@TheLethalCarrot Why this edit? I don't usually include a cover image in ID answers unless the question specifically describes the cover. When there's more than one edition, too much danger of the OP thinking "oh, that doesn't look like the book I read" even if it is.

@NapoleonWilson Heh! ;-)

TheLethalCarrot

@Randal'Thor Well I add a cover cos it is helpful to a point but I was editing the question mainly so added the image at the same time

Jenayah

Should covers be added before or after the summary?

(bit unrelated)

Edlothiad

Wait who's the outsider answering. I thought everyone with an account is a member of the community and therefore not an outsider.

TheLethalCarrot

12:34 PM

Personal preference, I add them after cos I think it looks better and doesn't detract as much from the summary

Jenayah

(also, POB, but I'm curious about what you guys think :p )

Edlothiad

@Jenayah I try to keep images to the bottom. Pictures are distracting

@TheLethalCarrot If you like it you better put a ring on it...

Napoleon Wilson

@Jenayah Personally, I find it odd when a post starts with nothing but an image. Images are always more supplementary than words, so I tend to prefer them being introduced by words.

TheLethalCarrot

@Edlothiad Ouch, that's a stretch

Napoleon Wilson

@Edlothiad Yeeeaaah...

Jenayah

12:35 PM

But it's ok when the OP told details about the cover?

Rand al'Thor

@Edlothiad Well, true, but Shog is more a network guy than an SFF guy. AFAIK he doesn't have any particular interest in this site except when his job brings him here.

Edlothiad

30 pictures and you've hit the word limit (I know it's characters, but that's less funny)

TheLethalCarrot

@Jenayah Put them wherever makes the most sense for that post really

Rand al'Thor

@Jenayah If the OP described the cover, and I find a cover image that fits, I'll add it in just as confirmation. Otherwise, no need to confuse the OP in the case that they read a different edition.

Again, just my personal preference.

Jenayah

POB maybe, but the feedback is nice to have

Edlothiad

12:37 PM

Taking an average of 5 characters per word, we'll say 6 pictures hits the character limit.

Jenayah

I think I'll go for "cover at the bottom" next times

@Edlothiad wait, what are you talking about?

Edlothiad

Tiny cover in the middle, every one knows that's the real rep grabber

@Jenayah Good questoin

Napoleon Wilson

But a picture contains a ton more characters than 5. You probably can even get to 30 with all the link stuff alone.

Jenayah

??

Edlothiad

A picture would contain 5000 characters, if the average word contained 5 characters.

TheLethalCarrot

12:39 PM

@Edlothiad 4 pictures of gates at the bottom, trumps that every day

Jenayah

(side note, I'll see if I can edit my previous posts with other info and push those back at the same time)

Napoleon Wilson

Ah, the 30,000 limit. Now it makes sense.

Edlothiad

As such, you'd be able to have 6 pictures, which would hit 30 0000 characters.

Napoleon Wilson

I thought you were on about the 30 character minimum limit.

Mithrandir

@Jenayah I'll often go bold title and author > optional small cover > back cover summary > explanation of how it fits (can include book or Wikipedia quotes) > how I found it

Jenayah

12:40 PM

Ok, seriously, what are we talking about here?

Rand al'Thor

@TheLethalCarrot Trump's gates?

TheLethalCarrot

@Randal'Thor Where?

Rand al'Thor

@TheLethalCarrot The White House?

Edlothiad

Jenayah

@Mithrandir kind of have the same pattern atm

TheLethalCarrot

12:40 PM

@Randal'Thor I knew what you was going for ;P

Edlothiad

Computer says no.

Rand al'Thor

@Jenayah I think they're overanalysing some stuff with character limits ;-)

Edlothiad

@Randal'Thor There's a Top Trumps on gates?

What are the different attributes?

Jenayah

@Randal'Thor yeah, that I understood, it's the where, when, how that I didn't, but in hindsight I don't want to try and understand :p

Rand al'Thor

Yeah, probably not :-P

TheLethalCarrot

12:42 PM

Eds making some daft joke about "A picture paints a thousand words" I believe

Edlothiad

I made a joke about a picture being worth a thousand words. Therefore you can only have 30 pictures in an answer.

Rand al'Thor

Oh now I get it!

Edlothiad

But the limit is 30k characters.

Jenayah

That an idiom?

Edlothiad

So I found the average characters per word

It's 4.7

Rand al'Thor

12:43 PM

> Quantity of beauty required to launch a single ship: 1 millihelen.

Edlothiad

So I just assumed throw in a couple of characters we'll call it 5. Divide 30k by 5 to get 6k. Divide 6k by 1k to get 6. 6 pictures get you to the character limit.

Rand al'Thor

@Edlothiad Like I said, overanalysing.

Edlothiad

That reminds me of the "deciRand" lol

Jenayah

> One million of microphones = one phone

Rand al'Thor

@Jenayah One trillion microphones = a megaphone.

Edlothiad

12:44 PM

@Randal'Thor What kind of trillion?

Rand al'Thor

@Edlothiad Isn't there only one kind of trillion these days?

Unless you mean the alien ones.

Napoleon Wilson

Well, in English, yes.

TheLethalCarrot

@Randal'Thor Susannah and Trinnian?

Rand al'Thor

Or the one who goes off with aliens.

Both of which are actually more on-topic here than 1,000,000,000,000.

Edlothiad

Nah there's still two trillions

Napoleon Wilson

12:47 PM

@Randal'Thor Heh, that I thought about, too.

Rand al'Thor

> What would happen if Trillian met the Trillions?

Fanfic time!

Edlothiad

One is Tera- the other is Exa-

Guess we all learnt the American Trillion

Napoleon Wilson

Is it true that the English people used proper trillions in the past, too? So did they actually have milliards back then?

Rand al'Thor

@Edlothiad Nobody uses the so-called British trillion any more.

I only read about it in old books.

Edlothiad

How old we call old.

I've read books published in the last 30 years noting the difference.

Rand al'Thor

12:49 PM

Older than you, boyo.

:-P

Edlothiad

Yes, 30 years is older than the both of us.

Or so I'm led to believe. For all I know you're 93

Napoleon Wilson

Makes kind of sense.

Rand al'Thor

@Catija I can never use the word "boyo" without thinking of your main meta account ;-)

Napoleon Wilson

o_O

Rand al'Thor

She'll know what I mean. (Well, if she has a good memory for random conversations from 2 years ago.)

Napoleon Wilson

12:53 PM

Cheerio then.

Rand al'Thor

Is this NAA?

It's been flagged as such, but it seems to be at least a partial answer.

Narrowing down the query to a single book, if not a single story within that book, is pretty good if it's right.

TheLethalCarrot

What's the story? I dunno but I think it came from this book

Not an answer to the question it's a comment with general feeling of where the story might be

Rand al'Thor

Narrowing it down to a specific book is usually good enough for an ID answer, surely?

Jenayah

@Randal'Thor Having flagged it, I'd say it's rather a comment

TheLethalCarrot

If you're after the book yeah

Rand al'Thor

12:56 PM

If someone's looking for a particular passage they remember in an unknown novel, and we give them the name of the novel, that wouldn't be NAA.

Jenayah

On the lines of "oh yeah I read that too, look in that direction"

TheLethalCarrot

But they're after a story that may or may not be from within the book

@Randal'Thor But that's not the same here

Edlothiad

Given you can convert to comment, I don't see why you wouldn't at this point.

Jenayah

dis ^

@Randal'Thor the way I read it, it's not a novel but a collection of short stories, which is not the same situation

Rand al'Thor

@Edlothiad Because I think it might be an answer?

Hence raising the discussion here.

Edlothiad

12:58 PM

Well all I'm saying is it's got two delete votes

Napoleon Wilson

It might be similar to a comment saying "I remember that story too and I think it had square-headed bagle monsters in it". It might help narrow down the search, but it's not quite right there.

Edlothiad

One more and poof

You can always "un-poof"

Rand al'Thor

@Jenayah Still a single volume that someone could leaf through to check.

Edlothiad

But you could probably expect pitchforks.

Rand al'Thor

Meh, you people and your pitchforks ;-)

Edlothiad

12:59 PM

I think the logic is say if someone asked "Has Harry handled all magical items"
And I were to be like "Yeh it's here:" and link to hp.wikia/magical_items

I mean all you have to search is one webpage to get your answer

What's wrong with that?

TheLethalCarrot

@Randal'Thor According to the link there are 10 stories, that's quite a lot of potential answers

Jenayah

@Randal'Thor uuuuh... That sounds like every "Maybe it was in this anthology" answer to "I read that short story" question should stay as is

Rand al'Thor

@Edlothiad I counter with this alternative analogy:

4 mins ago, by Rand al'Thor

If someone's looking for a particular passage they remember in an unknown novel, and we give them the name of the novel, that wouldn't be NAA.

Catija

@Randal'Thor :) I used to say "boyo" a lot... less now.

Napoleon Wilson

@Randal'Thor Because you assume the actual question is asking for the novel.

Edlothiad

1:01 PM

I'd say it is NAA, its not an answer

Napoleon Wilson

Unless you also do general "on what page in this book is the word gooblejibber?" questions.

Rand al'Thor

@Catija "I have more MSE diamonds than you, boyo"? :-P

Catija

Rep :P Now I just always have more diamonds. :D

Jenayah

@Randal'Thor still worth giving them the novel, might be of use for future story-ID questions

Rand al'Thor

@Edlothiad Yeah, I'm thinking to convert it to a comment just to save the content.

Jenayah

1:02 PM

@Randal'Thor IMO that's what should be done (and what Ed proposed IIRC)

6 mins ago, by Edlothiad

Given you can convert to comment, I don't see why you wouldn't at this point.

Napoleon Wilson

If it gets deleted, you can undelete it and hope that in the 3 seconds it takes to turn it into a comment noone posts a meta rant. ;-)

Rand al'Thor

And remembered to preserve FuzzyBoots's comment on the first try this time :-D

Edlothiad

I think what we can conclude from here is Ed always knows.

Rand al'Thor

Dolorous Ed?

Edlothiad

Call me whatever you like, Daenerys.

Rand al'Thor

1:09 PM

Hey, that's not what they called me when we were all giving each other GoT names back in 2014 ...

Oh bloody hell, we have a drarry tag now?

Edlothiad

That's what you called yourself...

@Randal'Thor You mean we added a drarry tag a year ago?

Jenayah

@Randal'Thor I don't even want to click on that to check if it's true.

Edlothiad

yesterday, by Rand al'Thor

I'm the Dragon Reborn.

Napoleon Wilson

What's Drarry? Wait, Draco and Harry?

Rand al'Thor

@Edlothiad My mind must have blocked it out. headdesk

@Edlothiad There's more than one Dragon in fantasy literature, you know ;-)

Napoleon Wilson

1:11 PM

Harry Potter people... <cue weird-hair aliens-guy meme>

Jenayah

@NapoleonWilson well either that or Dobby+Ron+Harry. Enjoy your lunch.

@Randal'Thor there is?? :o

Napoleon Wilson

@Randal'Thor Yes, it's 3 actually. ;-P

Edlothiad

Right who's got the eyebleach...

@Randal'Thor I know, there's on in my avatar... Silly statement

Rand al'Thor

in The Reading Room, Jan 22 '17 at 23:25, by DVK-in-Florida

@b_jonas I was once informed about a fanfic shipping a great squid and Dumbledore's chair. At that point, I realized people just treat HP fanfic as a homework in combinatorics.

Napoleon Wilson

Seriously, that should simply be merged into the fan-fiction tag.

Rand al'Thor

1:14 PM

in The Reading Room, Jan 22 '17 at 23:28, by DVK-in-Florida

In other words, HP fanfiction is ontopic on Math.SE

Jenayah

@Randal'Thor oO

Tell me at least the chair was ok with it?

Edlothiad

But drarry is different to dramione which is different to whatever other pairings I don't want to... Seriously, where's the eyebleach?!

Rand al'Thor

Don't ask me, ask whoever informed DVK.

I ain't Googling that.

Napoleon Wilson

There...really are tags for these things...

Jenayah

@Edlothiad maybe the bleach bottle is currently making out with Harry.

Rand al'Thor

1:16 PM

@Edlothiad And this, kids, is why fanfic has a bad name.

Edlothiad

HRRRRRRRRNNNNNNGGGGGGGHHHHHHHH

I don't lie about tags.

Rand al'Thor

Seriously, there's good fan-fiction out there. It just gets drowned by the sites full of "read about your favourite characters screwing each other!"

Napoleon Wilson

@Randal'Thor Because there's zero pubishing threshold for fan-fiction. Which maximizes for quantity over quality. (Even more so than professional publishing.)

Jenayah

@Randal'Thor agreed. However if I have to be honest, the only actual quality ones I've read were from small franchises... Ain't nobody got time to pair ships in those franchises.

Edlothiad

@Randal'Thor Game of Thrones is an excellent fan-fiction alternate universe TV adaptation of A Song of Ice and Fire

Jenayah

1:20 PM

@NapoleonWilson not fanfiction, but should be noted that we have a toads-spit tag. Just saying.

Napoleon Wilson

Satisfaction of sexual fantasies about the characters included.

@Jenayah Yeah...I remember that.

Rand al'Thor

@Jenayah There's a memetic story behind that ... I believe it was created by some high-rep users basically for a dare.

Jenayah

@Randal'Thor yeah, I've read the meta

Napoleon Wilson

@NapoleonWilson Glad I didn't use reply syntax on that, since it works for both messages above it.

Rand al'Thor

10

A: The many memes of SFF.SE

Meme: If Toad Slimed... Scope: SFF Chat room (Mos Eisley) and main site (multiple questions) Originator: Michael Edenfield Mar 4 5:14 PM. Cultural Height: Early March 2015 Background: A new user began asking a series of questions about Toad's spit, and who might survive or avoid the attack. ...

@Jenayah Maybe the small franchises tend to attract dedicated fans rather than people who care more about the sex than the characters? I dunno.

Have you heard of The Last Ring-Bearer, though? An alternative interpretation of the LotR story. I haven't read it, but I want to.

Napoleon Wilson

1:23 PM

Especially awesome considering that it started as a childrens' book...

Edlothiad

@Jenayah That's banter though

Napoleon Wilson

But well, when your audience grows faster than your characters that's what you end up with.

Jenayah

@Randal'Thor probably.

Edlothiad

@NapoleonWilson As long as there's no Jonsa, all is right with the world.

Jenayah

@Randal'Thor I don't like LoTR enough to read fanfiction ahah

Edlothiad

1:25 PM

@Randal'Thor Which one is that one?

@Jenayah *Gasps in Quenya!*

Jenayah

Or rather, I don't want to dislike LoTR even more to want to browse through the sheer amount of "What if X screwed with Y" cheap fanfiction I imagine there is out there.

Edlothiad

There is an open door, please...

Rand al'Thor

@NapoleonWilson God, now I'm imagining an 11-year-old who's just started reading HP and looks up on the internet for cool stories about Harry and Draco :-/

Jenayah

@Randal'Thor will you please shut up? xD

Napoleon Wilson

That's why you don't let kids on the internet. ;-)

doppelgreener

1:28 PM

@Randal'Thor oh no

zabeus

@Randal'Thor literally the first google result if you search "cool stories about Harry and Draco"

:-\

Jenayah

@zabeus Please don't continue that post.

Rand al'Thor

Sorry for sharing that disturbing thought with you all.

Um, floofs? @Galli?

Edlothiad

Thems be doing the nasties

Napoleon Wilson

@Randal'Thor Galla, Gallimimus?

1:30 PM

aw, birdy

aw, puppy

meh, doggy

His head seems quite big tho

Rand al'Thor

1:32 PM

Jenayah

eeeeeew, kitten

Edlothiad

All of these are delicious on a plate.

TheLethalCarrot

We all know who won..

Jul 24 at 10:09, by TheLethalCarrot

We need a poll...

Dogs or Cats?

Napoleon Wilson

aw, ~~pu...~~ kitty

Rand al'Thor

@TheLethalCarrot Sure, but no reason not to have both :-)

TheLethalCarrot

1:34 PM

True, our cats are good at killing mice

And the dogs are poor at killing the cats

Rand al'Thor

@Napoleon Orange kitty.

Napoleon Wilson

Jenayah

@Edlothiad okay so I didn't know the translation for mésange in English. I look it up, and realize that Ed diverted a conversation about cheap slash with a tit picture

Edlothiad

Blue tit

Turns out this is a Eurasian one, I thought they were only found in the galapagos, and were all blue

Jenayah

Wordreference says tit

Rand al'Thor

1:36 PM

Oh, 91k exactly.

Edlothiad

Bird, awesome. Blue Awesome. Combination AWESOME!

OH FIDDLESTICKS!

Rand al'Thor

@Jenayah I wasn't going to comment on that :-P

Edlothiad

I didn't get a 50001 screenshot...

Rand al'Thor

@Edlothiad Joke, right?

Edlothiad

Nah genuinely

TheLethalCarrot

1:36 PM

@Edlothiad I can help you get back there if you want?

Edlothiad

I haven't searched the term blue tit since I read one of those DK books about the galapagos

I'm pretty sure it was all blue

TheLethalCarrot

@Randal'Thor Nice

Rand al'Thor

@Edlothiad But you must have seen these ones in Europe?

Or do you not notice different types of birds?

Edlothiad

I don't think I've acknowledge any birds besides pigeons, crows, ravens, and those little ones you get everywhere

Jenayah

@Edlothiad sparrows?

Edlothiad

1:38 PM

Oh and Magpies. Because if you see one you have to say "Good Morning/afternoon/evening Magpie"

Meh maybe

Jenayah

C'mon you can identify an ostrich

Edlothiad

And Seagulls

TheLethalCarrot

Magpies are horrible birds

Jenayah

Especially if you see one in the wild in Europe

Edlothiad

Sure I can identify an Ostrich...

Napoleon Wilson

1:39 PM

Steven Seagulls?

Edlothiad

Emu > Ostrich

Jenayah

@NapoleonWilson ahahah

Edlothiad

Are there wild Ostriches in Europe?

Jenayah

@Edlothiad cassowary > emu

@Edlothiad I don't think so, hence the joke.

Edlothiad

I dunno, there are Ostrich Farms in Europe

Jenayah

1:41 PM

@Edlothiad farms =/= wild

Though they could have escaped

The Great Ostrich Escape

Edlothiad

Farms =/= wild?!

LIES!

Jenayah

go to Skeptics if you don't believe me... ;D

Rand al'Thor

@Edlothiad You know the difference between a crow and a raven, but not between any of the little birds ... ?

Edlothiad

I've only seen one type of little bird

@Randal'Thor Am I not a Tolkien-ite..

Jenayah

instagram.com/p/BGtO4cDyZEd

Rand al'Thor

1:44 PM

@Edlothiad No, you've seen more. You just haven't looked.

@Edlothiad I don't know why you're so keen on tolls.

You toll-keen person.

Edlothiad

@Jenayah GO ON MY SON!

5 hours ago, by Edlothiad

How can we see if our eyes aren't real

@Randal'Thor Ugh I hate that pronunciation...

Rand al'Thor

@Jenayah Wait, what country is that?

Napoleon Wilson

That...sounds like a Jayden Smith original. ;-)

Jenayah

@Randal'Thor Malaysia apparently straitstimes.com/asia/se-asia/…

Rand al'Thor

@Edlothiad The people of Candlewood Knolls are terribly troubled by trolls, who are driving their cars, and brawling in bars, and voting for Thor at the polls.

Needs something about tolls in there.

(h/t @user14111)

Zaphod

1:48 PM

6

Q: Sci fi novel. Post alien conquest. They point with tongues and collect model planes

Another from at least thirty years (or longer) ago. Set a few years after Earth's defeat and the overlords are involved in various power grabs and empire building. They have been supreme slave masters around the galaxy for countless generations and have evolved until no limbs (everything done b...