The Restaurant at the End of the Universe

TheLethalCarrot

7:59 AM

@Jenayah I doubt it's worth a poll on this one

Star if you hate ticks

4

16 secs ago, by TheLethalCarrot

Star if you hate ticks

Jenayah

Might as well take advantage of you being here to ask for your feedback on this question:

14 hours ago, by Jenayah

I'd like to post a question about which memory characters in HP use to cast their respective Patronuses. Browsing through the site doesn't seem to bring up dupes (see query and query), but could that be listed as too broad since it's kind of a list?

(+ ensuing messages from Mith)

TheLethalCarrot

It's a decent question but is certainly borderline too broad if not actually too broad just because of the amount of characters you'd be asking about

Is there anyone you actually want to know about specifically?

Jenayah

Well mainly the characters from this page, but some were probably never mentioned. I think common sense tells us that nobody ever asked what memory Seamus thought about

Lily, James, Abelforth... It's possible people asked.

TheLethalCarrot

8:15 AM

I had a quick look through that page but there's still 20 characters there if I counted correctly

Jenayah

Something like that, yes.

But as I was saying, obviously nobody cares about Seamus.

(works with Ernie and Cho too)

(okay, maybe Cho's got more fans)

TheLethalCarrot

The problem is if you want to know all the characters for this you either ask one question at risk of getting closed as Too Broad or lots of small ones and people get annoyed seeing the same thing over and over again

20 isn't too bad but I'm sure there would be at least 1 person to say it's too broad

Jenayah

Think I can phrase it like "I'm mainly interested about Order of the Phoenix members, but bonus points for DA?"

TheLethalCarrot

Suppose

Jenayah

Kevin, doppel, any thoughts? :)

doppelgreener

8:30 AM

I suggest figuring out who you want to know about (is it actually just OotP, or everyone ever?) and in what scope (the core novels, supplementary books like Fantastic Beasts, core movies, accessory movies like the other Fantastic Beasts, video games, Pottermore articles, everything?). Then ask for a complete list of what memories we know of as a community.

Mithrandir

@Jenayah "When birds burp, it must taste like bugs."

doppelgreener

The peril is in asking something like "what do you know of?" which is different: it means answering with just one person is a correct answer, but not a good answer. But newbies won't know that. They've been prompted to list whoever they know of, so they'll toss out one answer with one person in it.

TheLethalCarrot

@doppelgreener I don't think Jenayah was going to word it that way but it's a good point

doppelgreener

If you ask "What's the complete list of all the memories we know people use for their Patronus charms?" then "harry potter thought about his parents" looks like not only a bad answer but an incorrect answer.

That's going to do a lot to head off potential community moderation fatigue.

Jenayah

Yeah, I can see your point.

Lemme just fetch my draft

Current draft ^

I was going with "JKR" since I did not recall seeing this info on the few games I played, nor in movies or books, and I think this is the kind of stuff she gets asked a lot in interviews, but all works work.

And while we can definitely guess some (Snape's), I'm actually looking for explicit statements rather than "Well, here is the list of the gazillion of references to Snape's love for Lily, which make it likely she was his memory"

Mithrandir

8:42 AM

@Jenayah meh

TheLethalCarrot

You've worded it as if you only want interview answers (though you'd likely get book answers too) maybe change it slightly to allow for those if you want them and also probably worth stating you want explicit references

Mithrandir

@Jenayah this makes it... fairly obvious

> ‘For him?’ shouted Snape. ‘Expecto patronum!’
From the tip of his wand burst the silver doe: she landed on the office floor, bounded once across the office and soared out of the window. Dumbledore watched her fly away, and as her silvery glow faded he turned back to Snape, and his eyes were full of tears.
‘After all this time?’
‘Always,’ said Snape.

Jenayah

True dat

I'll edit Snape out of the bullet list then

TheLethalCarrot

Not much need to but can if you want, it'll at least give people a starting idea (if they didn't already think of it)

Jenayah

I'm expecting at least one person to point out that there might be hints with the Boggarts' chosen appearance (Molly sees her kids dead/might think of them when casting the Patronus)

Well Molly's not mentioned in the list on Pottermore, but her husband is, so same thing

doppelgreener

8:50 AM

> I know only of Harry's memories (alternately either thinking of his parents or Ron and Hermione), and that Snape's memory almost certainly has something to do with Lily.

There are others we can guess, but I just don't know for sure. We know Dumbledore's Army members have cast patronuses but not what they thought of.

What do we know from canon sources (or from JKR's interviews) about what memories people thought of to cast their Patronuses? What's the complete list of people whose memories we know and their memories?

Ask a question such that the most brain-dead obvious answer is only the answer you want: the answer you wrote has an obvious answer of "yes", which isn't what you want, so it isn't what you should ask for.

you don't merely want to know if she's revealed something, you want to know what we know and who thought of what.

TheLethalCarrot

Whilst the final question is better here I don't like the removal of the thought from Jenayah's part like removing the quotes and what not

@doppelgreener Whilst true anyone posting a yes answer would be trolling and it's clear to see what the OP means in cases like this

Jenayah

@TheLethalCarrot It's the good old "you have a kid? Is he a boy or a girl?" logic joke, ahah

doppelgreener

Yes, but if we're concerned the question may be poorly received, it's best to take extra measures and make wrong or bad or undesirable answers seem obviously completely invalid from the outset.

A dissertion on what we partly maybe know wouldn't be great. We also remove the portion of the question where we're making several guesses, so as to not lead people to also go making guesses. ("Luna was probably thinking of hares!")

Jenayah

Thanks for this, I'm going through the draft again based onyour suggestions

TheLethalCarrot

@Jenayah I hate the did this or this happen? Yes joke answers -_-

@doppelgreener True but I, personally, prefer when OPs include some research/guesses themselves in the question, it at least shows they've thought about the question more than just a random thought on a coffee break or something

doppelgreener

8:56 AM

(keep the bits with the quotes at the top, also, they're fine)

Jenayah

@TheLethalCarrot It's a RTOCB dammit! :p

doppelgreener

@TheLethalCarrot I'd include acknowledgement of what we seem to know, but creating a list of guesses is just prompting answerers to follow that example and create more lists of more guesses, which isn't what we want to see.

TheLethalCarrot

@Jenayah Told ya I'd forget

Jenayah

@TheLethalCarrot ^^

TheLethalCarrot

@doppelgreener Well educated guesses are fine when we lack any other information

doppelgreener

8:58 AM

Educated guesses, sure. But presuming the thing about what Umbridge was thinking of doesn't follow, for example. She might be thinking of that, or she might be thinking of the time she kicked an auntie in the shins or something.

Jenayah

@doppelgreener Honestly, I'd keep that. There's a question somewhere around here about how Umbridge was able to cast a Patronus, and as TLC said, I'd rather prove that I thought about this, and it's more within my "writing style".

doppelgreener

We can presume Snape is thinking of Lily and Tonks is thinking of Remus based on their patronuses, but we ought to acknowledge we don't know what the memory is, if any.

Jenayah

But I definitely appreciate the help whatsoever, especially about the question's wording :)

TheLethalCarrot

@doppelgreener Again sure, answers should be something like "nothing explicit but considering X we can guess at Y"

But now we're looking at answers and if someone is going to post a poor answer, they are going to post a poor answer no matter what

doppelgreener

@TheLethalCarrot But is "I would guess Umbridge is thinking of the oppression of muggles" (based on no textual evidence at all) a good part of an answer?

Jenayah

9:00 AM

@doppelgreener Actually, I think the memories can be vague and change a bit, so maybe he was more thinking about the concept of Lily rather than a precise memory

doppelgreener

Because that's not an educated guess, that's a wild guess.

TheLethalCarrot

@doppelgreener Well it could be part of a good answer but that isn't a good part of the answer

doppelgreener

It's a wild guess based on things we know, but we have nothing to say for sure she isn't thinking of, say, a particularly nice tea party.

Jenayah

@doppelgreener see this answer (wel rather the whole question and answers actually)

TheLethalCarrot

@doppelgreener Sure which is why I said educated guess

doppelgreener

9:02 AM

Right. It's not a good part of an answer, so we shouldn't set it forward as an example. Mentioning Snape and Tonks is good, because that guess is an educated guess -- the education being by analogy to Harry's memories of his parents producing a shape associated with one of them.

@Jenayah Sure, but that only says that she could do it, not what memory she was relying on.

Jenayah

@doppelgreener which is why I edited my previous chat message

TheLethalCarrot

I don't really see what it has to do with the question though (I mean I see where you are coming from but the very nature of asking the question is that you don't know.. guesses are fine in the question). I suppose though if you already have 2 or 3 educated guesses you don't need a wild one in there too though

doppelgreener

I'm just giving you feedback on your draft and suggesting to leave out that guess about Umbridge.

Jenayah

this answer says "This, I think, demonstrates that belief in the morality of her own actions that allows her to cast the Patronus charm."

doppelgreener

Sure?

Mithrandir

9:04 AM

> The moment he had passed the place where the Patronus cat patrolled, he felt the change in temperature: It was warm and comfortable here. The Patronus, he was sure, was Umbridge’s, and it glowed brightly because she was so happy here, in her element, upholding the twisted laws she had helped to write.

doppelgreener

But you're not asking for who could've cast a Patronus or why—you're asking for the memories that enabled it.

Jenayah

@doppelgreener Oh yeah sure, I don't want to seem like a hothead opposing everything you suggest, I asked in the first place :)

Sorry if it sounded like that!

TheLethalCarrot

On a different note this first answer by a new user is really good...

9

A: Youth Christian space sci-fi book series with hyperspace, androids, and Mars caves

This series is the Perimeter One Adventures by David Ward. You said: Looking for a late 90s middle grade Christian sci-fi book series... The books were all published in 1994 by Thomas Nelson, a Christian publisher in the United States. They focus on the members of the Graham family: Nathan...

doppelgreener

@Mithrandir @Jenayah If that's the passage you meant to point me to, you could mention that or link to that answer beside the guess. ("Based on this passage we could presume she was thinking of oppression of muggles.")

Jenayah

Indeed and already upvoted ;D

@doppelgreener alright, will do - it indeed seems like the right course of action

doppelgreener

9:08 AM

basically lead by example here on the kind of content you're after, because if you present a list in the question it will be a cue to present an equal-quality list in answers (and if the list in the question is guesswork without citation of what we actually know, you'll get back more lists of guesswork without citation of what we actually know)

Jenayah

@doppelgreener I see where you're going. "Tonks loved Remus so James was probably thinking of Lily as well", even if James' casting of a Patronus is never ever mentioned anywhere, right?

(except for Pottermore)

TheLethalCarrot

I mean you don't want a full list in your question though! Don't write up all 20 characters with guesses. ~3 will be fine haha

Jenayah

So far we've got Snape with a quote, Umbridge with a quote, Tonks/Remus with no quote (because too much quotes are too much)

doppelgreener

@Jenayah Right, something like "Tonks summoned a wolf, so we can imagine that like Harry thinking of his parents and summoning his father's stag, Tonks was probably thinking of Lupin."

(or whatever's more accurate)

Jenayah

@doppelgreener This one's already in the question, albeit phrased differently, so it shouldn't appear as an answer - however we can't monitor every person on the planet, and if they want to post a NaA for this when it's already in the question they will. Not that it's the biggest issue, we can always explain afterwards

TheLethalCarrot

9:17 AM

Whilst we have ~7 mods in here is there anything we can do about users who repeatedly don't add links in for sources and what not?

Jenayah

What's wrong with commenting "can you add a source for that?" ?

Mithrandir

@TheLethalCarrot please note that this appears to be a persistent troll and that VTDing can mess up the internal IP blocks applied to this troll, and that's not exactly something we want

TheLethalCarrot

@Jenayah Nothing but when you've said the same thing to the user a few times they obviously aren't listening so was wondering if there was a further step

Mithrandir

@TheLethalCarrot Not really. As long as they note their source it's not plagiarism, even if it's not linked.

TheLethalCarrot

@Mithrandir We've had this conversation before, various times, in various places. You know SFF only cares about how quick that sort of stuff is off of the front page

@Mithrandir Well not always linked but true I suppose, though I can't remember exact rules on quoting source and what not

Jenayah

9:22 AM

Well, no sources to back that answer up will get the guy downvotes in any case, right? If he's interested in contributing, he'll pick the pace up, if he's not, let him throw that - I don't think you should take action based on the sole issue of a guy reposting what he read somewhere thinking it's true and an accurate answer

Mithrandir

@TheLethalCarrot For one-offs, it's less of an issue, although still not ideal. For a persistent troll, do you disagree that building blocks to prevent them from coming back is desirable?

Jenayah

(as long of course as it's not plagiarism as pointed above)

TheLethalCarrot

@Mithrandir You know I don't but 1) I didn't know they were a persistent troll and 2) you know the meta consensus on this: as long as it's gone as quickly as possible we don't care how it goes

@Jenayah That's not entirely the case here, as in they have sources but not linked, a long time user, and they refuse to listen to any and all feedback but meh if there's nothing we can do there's nothing we can do

Jenayah

What's "longtime user"? (more curiosity than anything else)

TheLethalCarrot

Well decent amount of rep and around for a "long time" where long time is anything over N days haha

Jenayah

9:26 AM

Talk about a non-answer ahah :p

TheLethalCarrot

Not necessarily the rep part but that applies in this case

Well different people will say different things for "long time"

Mithrandir

For instance, I'd say TLC is still rather new... ;)

doppelgreener

the idea is that r/a flags can block a repeat troll from creating new accounts

and it doesn't take many r/a flags to destroy content that way

TheLethalCarrot

@Mithrandir 2 years 7 months here though true only really active for about a year or so

Jenayah

I mean this is the kid who repeatedly hands over homework with spelling issues already pointed out/divisions by zero/etc, right? It's painful for the teacher to read, it makes the whole class look a little bad but in the end he's only harming himself and the other classmates will move on, get jobs by their hard work etc

doppelgreener

9:28 AM

so it's a little bit of an extra wait to shut them out again for longer

at the very least, raise a custom mod flag about it so that the user account can be dealt with in a way that applies such a block

TheLethalCarrot

@doppelgreener Sure but meta consensus on SFF is to get rid of it as soon as possible and if that is by VTDs then that is how we'll do it

Mithrandir

@doppelgreener I do that all the time, BTW, after it's deleted

TheLethalCarrot

And side note after the post was R/A nuked I raised an account flag

doppelgreener

@Mithrandir good-o

good :)

Mithrandir

but it gets a double block if the user is nuked and the post is nuked via flags

TheLethalCarrot

9:30 AM

I've been stung too many times by raising the flag beforehand and having it marked helpful when the post is deleted haha

doppelgreener

oh, yeah. :/ that's really not ideal...

TheLethalCarrot

@doppelgreener It's also a way for OP's to bypass answer deletion which is also not ideal

Mithrandir

R/A post is posted. Answer is deleted via VTDs. No penalties applied, the person who posted it isn't hobbled at all. Poster can then repeat.

R/A post is posted. Answer is deleted via flags. Penalties applied, the person who posted it gets hobbled. More can still be posted.... but if those get nuked via flags as well, it increments the hobble until the IP is fully blocked and can't post anything.

Jenayah

R/A?

Mithrandir

Rude/Abusive

Jenayah

9:39 AM

ok

Wait, I'm confused.

Mithrandir

> Your post cannot be submitted at this time due to the volume of spam and abuse originating from your network. We apologize for any inconvenience.

Jenayah

Weren't we talking about a guy who "just" happened to quote stuff without sources?

Mithrandir

different thing

Jenayah

Is that considered abuse when taken to a certain extent?

Ok

Sorry, multitasking but not very well. ^^

Mithrandir

We're talking about this (.) HIGHLY ABUSIVE AND OFFENSIVE AND NSFW

TheLethalCarrot

9:42 AM

@Mithrandir scifi.meta.stackexchange.com/a/11542/58193

I mean it's your own meta so I think you know the answer anyway

Mithrandir

I'm aware. This is also a persistent troll who's been trolling SFF persistently with such posts.

And so, not the same case that that answer is talking about.

TheLethalCarrot

That answer is talking about the general approach and not everyone is aware of persistent trolls so they still come down to go with the general approach i.e. get rid of it as quickly as possible

doppelgreener

Yeah that answer is not about this

But honestly you should be deleting the content Mith posted via rude/abusive flags

At the very least, it does you the mercy of hiding them behind those "this answer is hidden" messages

And stopping these people from repeating these posts trivially is in your best interests

TheLethalCarrot

I did R/A flag it, DV it, VTD it and then mod flag for the account

But it is if you don't know that user is a persistent troll, please don't assume everyone knows what you know

doppelgreener

If someone's dropping the n-word, R/A flag it and downvote it but don't VTD it, ideally

TheLethalCarrot

9:46 AM

@doppelgreener Ideally yes but as the meta post says (R/A and spam are the same thing when it comes down to it really) we just want it gone as quickly as possible and don't care how it goes

doppelgreener

Ok, and I don't agree with that meta post

Mithrandir

IMO, that's short-sighted.

TheLethalCarrot

You don't have to agree with it but it's meta consensus so you should be following the advice on it

doppelgreener

Incorrect

Mithrandir

@TheLethalCarrot I'm following the way the internal network-wide SpamRam works.

doppelgreener

9:47 AM

It's meta consensus which means I should take it strongly under advisement, but if I consider it to have an enormous problem I am also at liberty to act otherwise.

TheLethalCarrot

@doppelgreener Sure but arguing with others who follow site policy is not fair

doppelgreener

(something something nick fury electing to ignore it quote something something)

Sorry I'm not trying to argue over anything, I'm just mentioning the stuff like what just arrived is best dealt with R/A flags and absence of VTDs

Mithrandir

@TheLethalCarrot I'd say that those in favor of that meta post are arguing with the network-wide policies in place due to how internal systems work.

TheLethalCarrot

@Mithrandir Well you can't really know why people voted for it

TL;DR: though is that SFF just wants R/A and spam gone as quickly as possible we don't care how and we don't care if the odd deletion ignores an IP block

doppelgreener

That's honestly bad policy :/

Jenayah

9:50 AM

@Mithrandir just saw that - I haven't been here very long, I'm naïve and all, but I also think that this kind of user should just get IP-blocked and get on with it. Of course that doesn't prevent him from using another IP (this is the 21st century, eh), but if you're that kind of a$$hole you deserve to get burnt.

TheLethalCarrot

@doppelgreener Maybe to you but with the little we get it doesn't really make much of a difference

Mithrandir

@Jenayah Exactly, and there are systems in place to do that, if people aren't subverting it.

doppelgreener

@TheLethalCarrot Excuse me? I'm part of the site's users.

It makes a difference to me how it's getting removed as a user of this site.

TheLethalCarrot

@doppelgreener I don't see how I implied otherwise

Jenayah

So from the various bit I gather in no particular order from this chat, SFF's policy is just to make the content disappear, and not the user?

(sorry if I'm repeating stuff you already said...)

doppelgreener

9:52 AM

[sigh] Maybe I'm still used to this whole "not counting as part of the community" talk. ~_~

Sorry about that then.

TheLethalCarrot

@Jenayah SFF's policy is to make the content disappear as quickly as possible, we don't care how

@doppelgreener Well from that discussion you know that I never meant to word it to mean those users weren't a part of the discussion and I believe it wasn't me that brought it up anyway but that's over with now

Mithrandir

@Jenayah Basically - stuff that should be flag deleted was being deleted via VTDs. I raised a meta post "hey, that's not good". SFF meta regulars didn't especially like that I told them they weren't doing it the right way and went "we like doing it this way". Now that's being cited as a reason to VTD, even though I've explained many times that this is harmful to the internal network-wide blocking systems.

But... looks like most SFF meta people want to wall the site off from anything network-related, including the way that internal systems work.

doppelgreener

Network policy is use R/A flags to block users from repeat posting.

And to avoid VTD because it prevents that from occurring.

Jenayah

@TheLethalCarrot I see how that falls in line with the "we're an experts on questions website thingy" from the network, but trash people should get trashed...

doppelgreener

Scifi policy is against the grain there for short-term benefit at long-term cost.

TheLethalCarrot

9:54 AM

@Mithrandir You might want to reword that it seems rude towards some users

@Jenayah Sure and after the post is gone I always raise a mod flag for them to deal with that anyway

doppelgreener

@TheLethalCarrot I don't think so, it's accurate

Jenayah

@doppelgreener Can you define "grain"?

TheLethalCarrot

@doppelgreener Maybe but not worded great

Mithrandir

@TheLethalCarrot So do I, and that creates a block. But it's not as effective when not coupled with R/A deletion.

doppelgreener

Actually, ok, I'll beg to differ: it's some people, but they seem to be pretty vocal

Mithrandir

9:55 AM

against the grain

== English == === Pronunciation === IPA(key): /əˈɡɛnst ðə ɡɹeɪn/ === Prepositional phrase === against the grain (woodworking, of sanding or planing a piece of wood) Preventing a smooth, level surface from being formed by raising the nap of the wood or causing larger splinters to form ahead of the cutting tool below the cutting surface. (idiomatic) Contrary to what is expected; especially, of behavior different from what society expects. By going against the grain and going to work nude, you've made yourself a laughing stock. (idiomatic) Unwillingly, reluctantly; contrary to one's natu...

oh hey, that still works

Jenayah

@Mithrandir Also, there's internal systems, network policy, and common sense.

Mithrandir

@Jenayah define: against the grain turns into ^^that

TheLethalCarrot

@Mithrandir I mean in most cases answers are deleted by R/A flags anyway

Jenayah

@Mithrandir ok got it, thanks

Mithrandir

@TheLethalCarrot So why bother VTDing?

Jenayah

9:56 AM

@Mithrandir neato

TheLethalCarrot

@Mithrandir To get rid of it as quickly as possible in the case Charcoal misses it and 3 high rep users see it before most others

Mithrandir

@TheLethalCarrot Charcoal isn't even related at this point

doppelgreener

But the community has responded to hysteria a few times when Charcoal was actually cleaning up spam, and a few users are invested in perpetuating the notion of an "inside" group and an "outside" group. (Conspicuously, the notion is that the "inside" group's opinions count the most, but the people perpetuating the notion and the people considering themselves "inside" are the same people. The outside group is, of course, to be completely ignored and invalidated as malevolent interfering agents.)

TheLethalCarrot

@Mithrandir Oh you're just for spam aren't you

Mithrandir

@TheLethalCarrot No, but it's unrelated to this discussion about the way the system works and the policy here.

doppelgreener

9:59 AM

Things like that come off as repelling interaction with the rest of the network and alienating and disowning people who come from anywhere else on the network or bring up anything from anywhere else.

I have to fight against that on a regular basis because of a few users directly telling me to my face that my opinion doesn't count or that I'm an outsider or something.

TheLethalCarrot

@Mithrandir Well you said why bother VTDing it, I said if Charcoal misses it (so no autoflags) it is likely quicker for 3 high rep users to VTD it than it to get R/A nuked (depending on the time of day)

doppelgreener

(... which I have taken to flagging as abusive because it is)

Mithrandir

@doppelgreener Indeed. I've taken lots of flak, despite being 20k+ and having been here for 4 years, because I take part in Charcoal and am a mod on Literature.SE. Or with terdon as well.

TheLethalCarrot

Well I don't see how the inside/outside discussion applies here, we all know that it happens but I don't see it happening here at the moment

Mithrandir

@TheLethalCarrot It came up lots on the meta post, but yes, slightly tangential here.

doppelgreener

10:01 AM

It matters here because of SFF's interaction with the rest of the network and network policy

and came up in that scope

On account of it being my own meta though I'm going to cast some votes in that policy thread.

TheLethalCarrot

@Mithrandir I'm sure it comes up a lot when lots of users who aren't really active or regular here all of a sudden turn up. Hence some of what I said yesterday about Charcoal and what not but that's not really the same to those meta discussions

Mithrandir

Something I really hate is that people go "they're skewing votes" from e.g. external mods on meta. No, not so. If you've got an account, you're a member of the site and fully entitled to vote. That's not even limited to SFF (e.g. this on Physics Meta), although certainly prevalent here.

doppelgreener

@TheLethalCarrot it comes up anytime anyone of those people perpetuating the "inside" group notion encounter opposition they don't like, honestly, because the "outsider" notion is a good way for them to say "you don't count" and invalidate that opposition.

TheLethalCarrot

@Mithrandir To be honest though I sort of agree with that argument

@doppelgreener Well true but I generally see it come up when a large group of people turn up at once, that aren't normally active, and I can defend both points of view there

doppelgreener

See the thing is, they turn up because a meta got posted that summoned their attention

The common notion is I'm only here active on a meta because someone was drumming up attention

Mithrandir

10:07 AM

You don't have to live on meta to be allowed to have a voice.

doppelgreener

The actual idea is I check this site's meta regularly because I use this site

Most significant metas will see several people who are not regular turn up active

Jenayah

The again, could you define "regular"?

doppelgreener

The insider/outsider concept is used to invalidate and alienate those people as not counting, because it suggests they're just here to interfere.

Instead the idea here is they're here because this is their community and there is something warranting their attention and activity.

Jenayah

(not the English word I mean, your view of it)

TheLethalCarrot

@doppelgreener Right but in the previous cases two (only one per case) distinct groups have all turned up around the same time who never really participate on the site (some didn't even have an account here). I'm not saying it's a bad thing, and I'm not saying it makes their opinion any less worthwhile, but it puts people on the defensive and makes it look like they only turned up to back up their pals from their group

doppelgreener

10:12 AM

And it looks like that because there's a handful of people putting in a lot of effort to convey the idea that's what's happening so that they can invalidate the input those people are providing because that input is opposed to what they want.

Jenayah

Lurkers don't have it easy, I guess.

(long-time lurker on server all SE sites)

TheLethalCarrot

@Jenayah Not all were lurkers but this point of view is largely taken from other users not me (I can just see both sides to defend each point of view)

Mithrandir

@TheLethalCarrot Let's take a real example. What do you think of my participation on Veganism & Vegetarianism and its meta?

TheLethalCarrot

@doppelgreener To be honest though it looks like that before you even look at comments and what not

Mithrandir

I have a single post on the main site.

And eleven on meta.

I participate almost exclusively in the meta discussions.

SQB

10:14 AM

@Mithrandir wow.

Mithrandir

Does this mean that I'm not actually a regular of the site, or whatnot?

doppelgreener

@TheLethalCarrot Before I do? Not to me it doesn't. It might look that way to you because that group's put the outsider notion in the common view and is still working to perpetuate it.

TheLethalCarrot

Not to discount the analogy Mith but you're sort of an edge case user with how you participate network wide

@doppelgreener Again though it looked that way to me before I saw the "common view" and "you" was probably meant to say one or something like that

Mithrandir

@TheLethalCarrot Actually... there are more than you think, especially among the groups that are often referred to as "outsiders" on SFF meta. That being network mods and Charcoalers, both of whom very often are network-wide users.

doppelgreener

I strongly doubt it

TheLethalCarrot

10:16 AM

@doppelgreener Well I would say I know my own opinion better than yours but who knows?

doppelgreener

On many sites new or inactive people arise in large metas to have their say, and that's just taken as normal business. It's here on SFF that it gets taken as "oh someone brought all their friends to interfere". It's also here on SFF that there is a group actively and vocally trying to perpetuate an inside/outside notion wherein anyone unusual or irregular showing up to voice their say in a meta is an outsider who's interfering.

TheLethalCarrot

@Mithrandir Sure but I hope you can see where I'm coming from and note my response to Jenayah earlier. I don't have this view but I can certainly see why people who do have it, have it.

doppelgreener

So I imagine when you were very new here, you weren't busy going "someone brought all their friends" on metas, but you picked up that idea after some folks arguing that was the case.

TheLethalCarrot

On a side note: Can we not have the starboard filled with one half of a discussion? I didn't like it yesterday when some of mine were starred and I don't like it today (there were only 2 or 3 yesterday though so not as bad as today where the whole board has been turned into a one sided discussion)

doppelgreener

I'd dig that, I don't really agree with SFF usage of stars as "I agree" in discussions

This conversation could go starless and be the better for it

TheLethalCarrot

10:21 AM

@doppelgreener I picked that up only after I saw it happen myself but again it's not a view I personally hold just one I understand, I'm certainly more of a middle ground though between both points of view

SQB

@Mithrandir also, an album by Bad Religion.

doppelgreener

Do those points of view need a middle ground though

TheLethalCarrot

@doppelgreener Not saying they do, just saying I am in a middle ground

doppelgreener

Ok

SQB

@doppelgreener I'm on mobile; unstarring is hard and the star board looks different for me anyway. Is there anyone here able to take care of it? @Kevin?

Oh wait, @Mithrandir can do it too.

Mithrandir

10:26 AM

already done

SQB

Thanks.

Mithrandir

:)

@TheLethalCarrot Well, it gives an impression of toxicity that I really really really don't like. So does a lot of SFF meta stuff, actually.

It's at a basically all-time high of toxicity from the four years I've been around, IMO.

TheLethalCarrot

@Mithrandir Sure, but then I wouldn't say a lot of SFF meta stuff is toxic or gives off that impression

Jenayah

Wait, 4 years?

Mithrandir

@Jenayah 3 years 10 months, to be precise

Jenayah

10:30 AM

Did you join before the legal age for this site or do I have your age wrong?

Mithrandir

*cough*

Jenayah

^^

SQB

I'm on the fence about it. I do not like any insider / outsider distinction, but I do think a bit of experience on the specific Stack can be useful. However, that experience can come from browsing and reading, which is invisible.

@Jenayah @Mithrandir is now and has always been exactly old enough to participate.

Jenayah

@SQB As a big lurker on some sites, I support that

doppelgreener

@SQB usually I rely on users to make a compelling argument in their answers, and if it makes sense in context with past meta discussion and site experience and practice, it shows.

TheLethalCarrot

10:32 AM

@Mithrandir Whilst this may be true might not be the best to have that starred in SFF's chatroom. Whilst it could make some users pick up their act it could also make a bad impression on new users

doppelgreener

@TheLethalCarrot or prompt them to examine what's going on

Jenayah

@SQB Just some math which did not compute in my brain, but I'm both biased by my regional laws and fellow intern taking forever to come back from buying his food ;D

TheLethalCarrot

@doppelgreener Well some of the main users who'd that affect wouldn't see it but sure, though I'd rather be friendlier to new users than try and passively suggest to old ones they might need to think about their actions (especially as in those cases they've generally been told more explicitly)

doppelgreener

Those actions aren't mutually exclusive though

TheLethalCarrot

Sure but that message wouldn't exactly give a good impression to new users

But it's not starred anymore so meh, I've had my say on it

Rand al'Thor

10:35 AM

@TheLethalCarrot Why do you care? As a user you flagged something for mods, and we in turn flagged it for CMs; why not just let us/them get on with whatever needs doing?

TheLethalCarrot

@Randal'Thor Just wanted to know if my flag was correct to improve my judgement in the future

Rand al'Thor

@TheLethalCarrot Also could be seen as rude. I unstarred it (before even seeing your response to it, in fact).

TheLethalCarrot

@Randal'Thor Mine as rude? Not sure how but it doesn't really matter, you can delete those messages about the star if you want though

Rand al'Thor

@TheLethalCarrot No, I mean Mith's that was starred.

Mithrandir

@Randal'Thor Why?

TheLethalCarrot

10:38 AM

@Randal'Thor Well depends how you read it but I don't really see it like that

Rand al'Thor

@TheLethalCarrot Fair enough. But you (and possibly even we as mods) don't have access to all the info to determine that, so don't read too much into whatever the end result may be.

Your flag was marked helpful anyway :-)

TheLethalCarrot

@Randal'Thor Aye and fair enough but as Tesco says "Every little helps"

doppelgreener

@SQB After thinking about that a bit, here's how I'd pare it apart: There is value in examining whether a position being put forward on meta is consistent with the site's needs and past meta discussion; if it is in conflict, it's important for the position to be able to acknowledge the conflict and address it and provide a resolution. Brand new users are often not able to do that, because they still have a lot of learning to do.

On the other hand, the insider/outsider distinction is not about ensuring consistent and sensible meta discussion; instead it's a rhetorical tool used for power consolidation and manipulation through disenfranchisement and alienation of arbitrary groups by applying the rhetoric against them to invalidate their participation and input by virtue of who made it (or even saying entire voting outcomes are invalid because "those people are interfering, we can't tell, but we're sure they are").

TheLethalCarrot

@TheLethalCarrot I'm an idiot sometimes

Rand al'Thor

@Mithrandir Well, for one thing it encourages certain users' (and even mods') perception that it's OK to insult our site in their own chatrooms. Too many times I've seen people calling SFF "toxic" elsewhere.

Not that you were insulting the site as a whole, but you're still implicitly calling certain users' behaviour toxic, even if you're not naming those users.

@TheLethalCarrot You got it right the first time :-D

TheLethalCarrot

10:42 AM

@Randal'Thor I know I googled it because I doubted myself and misread the summary of the article haha

Rand al'Thor

@doppelgreener That's a lotta long words there, but you're right :-P

@TheLethalCarrot I thought you were a Brit?

TheLethalCarrot

@Randal'Thor I am

Rand al'Thor

Should be used to these slogans by now then.

Unless you live in a Morrison's town.

Mithrandir

@Randal'Thor Perhaps this means that there is in fact an issue, if you're seeing it repeatedly.

TheLethalCarrot

I actually live in a Tesco area (though who doesn't nowadays?) but I don't care to properly remember those daft slogans

Mithrandir

10:44 AM

(AKA: I'm sick of it and I'm rather invested in this site.)

Rand al'Thor

@Mithrandir A lot of people who throw insults actually have a point. Doesn't mean it's OK to throw insults.

TheLethalCarrot

@Mithrandir The issue isn't necessarily that there is toxicity though, worth bearing in mind (though I'm not saying there is or isn't any)

doppelgreener

I don't follow. I mean, if there's toxicity that's definitely an issue, right?

Jenayah

Isn't toxicity super subjective, though?

doppelgreener

Not in the way stack moderation handles it, for example personal attacks are objectively toxic

Jenayah

10:51 AM

Oh, sure

I thought you referred to "drama" as toxicity

doppelgreener

They often come in pairs, but toxicity is more that factor that makes older site members want to leave or enjoy the place less and which repels new users from getting invested and destabilises the community away from being peaceful and cooperative and into being antagonistic and unpelasant.

TheLethalCarrot

As Jenayah said I'm replying as to the subjective part and personal attacks I'd put more as R/A than toxic and something that needs to be dealt with separately and on a case by case basis though I can't remember seeing any personally

doppelgreener

@TheLethalCarrot I see it and experience it, but I also flag it for removal. It mostly comes in the form of lots of microaggression from many different comments.

Rand al'Thor

@doppelgreener I can see both sides of this. While the gatekeeping insider/outsider thing is a problem as you say, it can also happen that people do link a post somewhere to attract a lot of irregular voters. I'm a little leery of the latter practice, whether that "somewhere" is TL, Slack, or anywhere else.

TheLethalCarrot

@Randal'Thor That's my main issue (for lack of a better word) with it and I think you've expressed it better than I can

Rand al'Thor

10:56 AM

@doppelgreener Let me argue by analogy. If someone's being an arsehole, that's definitely an issue too. But that doesn't mean it's OK to call people arseholes.

Jenayah

True that ^

(says the girl who called some guy "trash" for using the n-word like one hour ago, but well, that's consistency for you)

doppelgreener

@Randal'Thor Right, fair. But the insider/outsider doesn't get applied with any rigour. Instead it gets applied to anyone who's a diamond moderator, anyone with more rep elsewhere, in fact anyone who could be feasibly argued to be an "outsider" for any quality.

Rand al'Thor

@Jenayah Well, it can certainly be OK in real life :-)

doppelgreener

And, curiously, gets brought up only if/when there is opposition to the people who bring this up. There's never complaints of "oh no my post is getting upvoted by those interfering outsiders".

Jenayah

@Randal'Thor this happened on this very chat actually

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The Restaurant at the End of the Univ…