Challenge-Writing Contest

12:49 AM

string
ascii-art
kolmogorev-complexity
math
graphical-output or image-processing
array-manipulation
restricted-source
geometry
grid
game
random
combinatorics
quine
decision-problem
date
sorting
parsing
base-conversion
graph-theory
binary
path-finding
permutations
source-layout
interpreter
optimization
puzzle-solver
regular-expression
chess
printable-ascii
palindrom
natural-language
fibonacci
cryptography
code-generation
hello-world
fractal
compression
music
balanced-string
polyglot
matrix
internet

Conor O'Brien

where did you get these?

in The Nineteenth Byte, 23 mins ago, by Conor O'Brien

Propose a theme!

these have more "life" to them

Григорий Перельман

All of the tags from the first 3 pages that weren't language specific, a question type, or a near-duplicate of another tag

Helka Homba

@ГригорийПерельман Alrighty

Григорий Перельман

We need to specify a date and time when we each post, after ensuring everyone who might be intrested has seen this.

TacoLemon

Eggs

Helka Homba

12:58 AM

I was thinking all posts would be simultaneous and use the same 2 tags. But they could be spread out with different random tag requirements

Григорий Перельман

That could work, to prevent spam. First one person posts, then two new tags are generated, then next person posts, etc.

Then everyone should get two-three tag combinations to chose from in case Someone gets audio and regular-expression while someone else gets binary and restricted-source

Who should we invite here? We need a list

Conor O'Brien

1:17 AM

moi

VisualMelon

what is this exciting endeavour, and will it take less than 3 and a half weeks?

Григорий Перельман

A competition to write a challenge, and likely.

VisualMelon

well that sounds splendid, where do I sign up?

Григорий Перельман

Here

We don't have a list of people yet

As you can maybe tell

Conor O'Brien

why 3.5 weeks specifically?

Helka Homba

1:31 AM

We could do a trial run today.

VisualMelon

my deadlines stop pending and start piling up in 3.5 weeks

either everything will be a disaster and I'll have to focus on my work

or I'll have no work to do and no motivation to do anything

it's 2:35 in the morning where I am, 21 hours sounds like a good trial-run timeframe

Григорий Перельман

@HelkaHomba I don't have time for that, but feel free to.

PhiNotPi

this could be cool

@ConorO'Brien what are the proposals so far?

Conor O'Brien

you can look at the results I think

docs.google.com/forms/d/e/…

VisualMelon

1:58 AM

well I have no reason to be asleep, is there a plan?

Григорий Перельман

@PhiNotPi We scrapped that for the tag idea (I think)

I suppose I can merge the two, but I'm not accepting "Dragons" as a valid theme.

Actually, everything there is either silly or already covered by a tag

VisualMelon

I didn't know we had a goat tag?

ah, I may have missed the context, is this intended to be an exclusive competition?

PhiNotPi

I like the idea of assigning everyone 2 random tags... maybe we can also randomize the order of posting, or require everyone to pre-commit a decent outline of their challenge spec before any of them are posted.

Григорий Перельман

2:16 AM

Well, the idea was that we don't tell too many people, and hopefully not get a spam of posts that way.

But I suppose that's not really fair.

VisualMelon

fairness isn't really my department, do whatever makes sense, nothing wrong with demanding record of achievement. really depends on what you are trying to achieve with the competition

Helka Homba

e.g. must have codegolf.stackexchange.com/help/badges/91?page=1

Course, we can't stop people from writing challenges anyway

VisualMelon

seems like a generous lower bound ;)

Helka Homba

Ok. Must have codegolf.stackexchange.com/help/badges/93/socratic :P

Григорий Перельман

I don't even have inquisitve ;(

If we do the thing with randomized tags for everyone and posting at different times, we should compile a list of participants.

Helka Homba

2:26 AM

Me

VisualMelon

I haven't even asked 5 questions, so write me off

Helka Homba

@VisualMelon you could help generate the random tags

Just remember everyone should have the same amount of time to post once seeing theirs

VisualMelon

ah, the impartial bystander, my favourite role

PhiNotPi

@HelkaHomba wow, that's actually my "Next badge"

57/100 though

Григорий Перельман

Information pertaining to the contest is here

5

Feel free to edit as necessary

Hey guys I found a chat bug
I unpinned the message containing all the tags, but I can't unstar it

Off to meta SE?

VisualMelon

2:30 AM

You'd better stick a "Spring 2017" on the end of the name, don't want to create confusion the next time you run it

Григорий Перельман

@HelkaHomba you probably want to add your name to the HackMD ^^^^^

Conor O'Brien

I feel like semantic edits (like rule clarifications) should be allowed--we do want quality questions on this site, after all

Григорий Перельман

Fortunatly, SE saves revision histories.

We can "Freeze" a post and still allow said semantic edits.

Helka Homba

2:51 AM

Lots of rules added hackmd.io/…

Is there a way to give all participants random tags such that the arbiter/referee guy can't fix them?

VisualMelon

use an online dice roller

Helka Homba

Not that I don't trust @VisualMelon, just curious if that's possible. Like where we can all be sure it was done fairly

VisualMelon

I wouldn't trust me.

Helka Homba

You'd need a multiplayer dice roller

VisualMelon

they exist

alternatively, take the hash approach: blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/oldnewthing/20060523-17/?p=31093

everyone writes their own obfuscated tag table, which maps intergers to tags

they declare the hash

someone else produces an integer

then they declare the table, and determine the tags

Helka Homba

2:59 AM

that sounds complicated...

VisualMelon

yeah, but it doesn't involve trusting anyone except the hash designer

Григорий Перельман

Guys

Write a script to get a random element from the tag list

Use the user's SE id as the seed

Put it on TIO.

VisualMelon

I can approve of that

Helka Homba

@ГригорийПерельман But then couldn't they figure out their tags too soon and have extra time?

I'm assuming the minute I know the 2 tags I then have exactly X hours to write and post the challenge.

Mistah Figgins

~23% of the "theme" suggestions pertain to goats

Steven Hewitt

3:04 AM

SE id + some other constant, which is determined when your time starts?

VisualMelon

that could be crafted

(have to trust the person that produces that constant)

Григорий Перельман

Hmmm

Helka Homba

Does this work -> rolz.org/dr?room=PPCG

Григорий Перельман

Blocked by a web filter for me, but probably.

Helka Homba

It's a chatroom like this but you can roll arbitrary dice and more (no reg required)

Григорий Перельман

3:07 AM

Convenient

VisualMelon

here is a totally legit random tag generator

... oh, TIO link is too long for chat

Григорий Перельман

tinyurl

VisualMelon

tinyurl.com/mmuyjnq

definitely something that needs reviewing

Григорий Перельман

Maybe

Conor O'Brien

TIO link for seeding people via username

you've probably already found a solution

Mistah Figgins

3:17 AM

Well, my username gets "polyglot quine" which maybe has been done to death

Григорий Перельман

Just now, and we've also realized the problem with the solution.

Mistah Figgins

Thats ok, I'm not sure Imma participate anyways, what with my 1 challenge

Григорий Перельман

But anyone can do that, and find out their tags early.

Mistah Figgins

Oh yeah

oh.

PhiNotPi

puzzle-solver ascii-art seems pretty straightforward

Григорий Перельман

3:18 AM

> Pavel gets tags:
1. random
2. approximation

Welp, I'm screwed.

Mistah Figgins

Is this official?

Helka Homba

no

Still debating over best way to assign tags

Mistah Figgins

I feel like it should be random, seeded by username, so that even if you have the program, you can't get the tags

Helka Homba

@MistahFiggins But then you could if you knew the username

rolz.org/dr?room=PPCG is also an option where we can all see shared random results

VisualMelon

seed it with their rep

that won't encourage gaming the system atall

PhiNotPi

3:20 AM

what are we trying to do? make random assignments but keep them secret?

Mistah Figgins

Oh ye, hmm

PhiNotPi

I'm sure there's some fancy cryptographic solution to this.

Helka Homba

@PhiNotPi Basically. It's fine if they're generated truly random on the fly and not secret

i.e. dice rolls when someone is about to start their X hours

Григорий Перельман

So people can't determine what the assignments are before their time is called.

The thing it, we can't just say "Hey guys I rolled a d20 and got a 17" due to the problem that we don't want to trust anyone.

VisualMelon

we could just seed it with time on TIO, and trust that we are too imprecise to game it

Conor O'Brien

3:22 AM

@MistahFiggins it is seeded by username

VisualMelon

can we trust caching?

Григорий Перельман

No, you can reset that.

VisualMelon

figures; drat

Mistah Figgins

The dice rolling thing was ok, I think. what was the problem?

Conor O'Brien

we could do something like "the time you respond to this message is your seed"

VisualMelon

3:24 AM

we don't know the microseconds on that

Helka Homba

@VisualMelon But if someone says "I'll start my challenge at time T" they may have already checked that that seed gives easy tags

VisualMelon

yeah, but we seed it with sub-second precision

i.e. even if you script up the request, you can't be sure when it will submit

because nothing is predictable enough

Григорий Перельман

@MistahFiggins There isn't one, we're just wanting to see if something is more convenient.

VisualMelon

you're sure you don't want to take the hash approach? ;)

Helka Homba

@VisualMelon Maybe. But how do we trust the tags someone says they got?

VisualMelon

3:26 AM

it won't work because caching can't be trusted

(as Pawel said)

Mistah Figgins

@VisualMelon You just need 1 hash, and everybody picks (openly) 2 different numbers after the secret hash is created

Then, the trusted person reveals the hash

VisualMelon

no no no

Helka Homba

@VisualMelon that's looking less complicated...

:P

VisualMelon

if you are going to the effort of hashes

then you have no trusted parties

you rely on openness and identity for everything

for example: Helka picks a challenge name (one from PPCG), hashes it, and sends us the hash

then someone generates a random number

doesn't matter who, we just agree when it has been created

then Helka declares the challenge name, and from it and the random number we seed an RNG to produce the tags

Григорий Перельман

We could do the random thing, but the seed is the xor of numbers given by at least five people

VisualMelon

3:29 AM

we verify that Helka didn't lie by hashing the challenge name to check it matches the hash provided

yeah, just take it that no-one has the computing power to generate solutions in real time

Helka Homba

I see

Григорий Перельман

Jeez, let it never be said cryptography is an easy field.

VisualMelon

(the benefit of the hash approach is that we just have to agree a protocol, we don't have to trust any service provider (other than SE for identity and openness))

Григорий Перельман

And we can't really not rely on SE

VisualMelon

exactly ;)

Helka Homba

3:36 AM

@VisualMelon Another way is, when someone is ready to start their challenge, roll 1D49's (1 die with 49 faces, as there are 49 tags) until 2 unique numbers come up. Index the tag list with those numbers to get the tags that that person must use.

#1D49 works for rolling dice everyone can see here: rolz.org/dr?room=PPCG

VisualMelon

that works too, if we trust Rolz

Helka Homba

Well, @ГригорийПерельман can't see...

VisualMelon

that's fine, we just lie to him and everyone agrees it will be funny

Григорий Перельман

I can on my other computer i.e. in about an hour

Mistah Figgins

"you got random aproximation"

Helka Homba

3:39 AM

@VisualMelon Unless one of us runs it...

VisualMelon

in that case we couldn't trust it

(we can trust TIO, because we can independently verify the results)

Григорий Перельман

I think that's a level of paranoia we don't need to accommodate.

VisualMelon

(with seeding, that is)

Григорий Перельман

@VisualMelon Dennis runs it

He can do bad things

VisualMelon

doesn't matter

Helka Homba

3:41 AM

And half the languages there were made by us :P

VisualMelon

if are seeding stuff then we can run the script on our own machine

Григорий Перельман

Tru

VisualMelon

use C# then, I promise I'm not Anders what'shisname

Helka Homba

But really, I'd trust melons method or mine just fine for this

Григорий Перельман

Ye

VisualMelon

3:42 AM

just use Rolz and TIO

Григорий Перельман

It doesn't have to be the same method for everyone, right?

Helka Homba

no

Григорий Перельман

If someone can't access Rolz, try a different one.

VisualMelon

alternatively... there are standard sources of randomness

(timestamped randomness)

Helka Homba

@ГригорийПерельман Weird how "no" or "yes" or "right" would all be affirmative responses to this

Григорий Перельман

3:46 AM

Yeah

VisualMelon

we'd better decide how to randomly assigned random tag assignment methods...

can't have people analysing them and selecting favourable protocols

Григорий Перельман

Let's use Rolz

Roll a d29

Map numbers to tags in the order they appear on the hackmd

Helka Homba

There are 49 tags. (Though I'm not against culling a few awkward ones)

Like answer-chaining definitely

that's too tricky for this kind of thing

Григорий Перельман

If anyone want to make changes, they can.

VisualMelon

I must say I'm a tad confused about this whole thing: you want more good questions, so you are taking people that already produce good questions, and imposing constraints to make it more likely they will produce not so good questions?

or is this about greater tag diversity?

Helka Homba

3:51 AM

I just wanted to (try to) beat someone at writing a good challenge ;)

in The Nineteenth Byte, 4 hours ago, by Helka Homba

@DJMcMayhem You me and martin should have a challenge-challenge. We each get 2 hours to write a challenge from scratch (no sandboxed ideas) and post them exactly when time's up. No edits after posting. The one that eventually gets the most upvotes (and not not closed) wins.

VisualMelon

Now that makes sense to me ;)

Helka Homba

It's turned into a hashathon

Григорий Перельман

4:02 AM

By the way, feel free to add tags.

Mendeleev

4:13 AM

Can I participate?

Григорий Перельман

Sure

Hackmd pinned to starboard

Sign up there

Helka Homba

@ГригорийПерельман if someone deletes all that is there a backup

Григорий Перельман

@HelkaHomba HackMD saves revision histories

Mistah Figgins

4:27 AM

@MendeleevLemon Sigh First it's "DownX" and then it's "XLemon", what's next

MendeleevLemon

@MistahFiggins Famous scientists

Mistah Figgins

4:41 AM

I think that happened a while ago

MendeleevLemon

like 2 weeks

AdmBorkBork

12:41 PM

I like this idea. I don't know that we need to go to great lengths to cryptographically secure our "random" tags. In general, I trust people here enough for that. It's not like we're exchanging money.

SIGSEGV

1:20 PM

@MistahFiggins DownXLemon

in The Nineteenth Byte, 5 hours ago, by SIGSEGV

I have a challenge idea, We output the new PPCG logo, with the source shaped like this. lowest amount of changed cells (i.e. bytes which are erased or newly typed) wins.

Do you like my idea?

@HelkaHomba Well I would win since I've made all recent challenges from scratch and there has been 4~5 successful ones

:P

Down Christopher

3:23 PM

This is kinda cool. I would like to watch you do this and think it will be cool

Григорий Перельман

3:58 PM

@HelkaHomba do you want to write up a meta post annoucing the competition? I would but I'm bad at making meta posts >_>

Григорий Перельман

4:43 PM

Actually, nvm, I'll do it.

0

Q: Announcing the PPCG Challenge-Writing Competition!

Most of us, I'm sure, come to this site either to solve delightfully tricky programming puzzles, or to see what insane golfs other members of our community have written. However, now we ackgnowledge the creative brilliance of those that come here to write those challenges that we've collectivel...

Martin Ender

4:59 PM

Out of curiosity, what's the point of "You must post within +/-5 minutes of your deadline."?

Григорий Перельман

I don't think there is one.

We collectively decided it was a bad idea and no one removed it.

One sec

Martin Ender

Also why is everyone talking about good challenge writers and no invited (or even mentioned) @Zgarb? :(

Григорий Перельман

He doesn't hang out in chat, so we have no idea how to invite him. We can't really ping him

Hopefully he'll see the meta post.

betseg

> and X hours to write a challenge

Григорий Перельман

We haven't decided all of the rules.

betseg

5:02 PM

and what if that happens on night?

oh ok

Григорий Перельман

Your time starts whenever you're available though.

It's not simultaneous, we don't want fifteen new posts within a few minutes of each other on the front page.

@MartinEnder By the way, want to sign up?

user165474

Will we consider optical-char-recognition?

Martin Ender

in The Nineteenth Byte, 10 hours ago, by Martin Ender

@HelkaHomba "No sandboxing your challenge or getting feedback." Why do you even need to ask for my opinion? ;)

but thanks

Григорий Перельман

@HyperNeutrino Probably not.

@MartinEnder So you decline?

Martin Ender

yes

Martin Ender

5:35 PM

"You are allowed 1 major edit to the challenge within 1 hour of it being posted. A major edit is any edit that either adds/fixes test cases or clarifies some information. Any number of minor formatting/grammar tweaks are allowed during the first hour. After that, the answer is considered frozen. Further edits will not be taken into consideration during judging." How is this supposed to work? I thought the score is just the number of votes at the end?

Or do edits forfeit the challenge for the contest? If so that seems like a really bad idea for challenge quality.

betseg

> You get 3 sets of 2 random tags

we have to use both?

Rod

6:14 PM

Quick question: when this contest will start?

Luis Mendo

6:35 PM

I like the idea of this competition. I would only suggest that the number X of hours be rather large, of the order of a few days (unless that goes agains the spirit of the challenge). People may have commitments or deadlines that prevent them from preparing the challenge in a short time

3

Riker

@Zgarb hey, do you want to participate in this? it's a challenge writing competition

Григорий Перельман

@betseg Yes

Riker

you've written good ones before, so we thought we'd invite you

Григорий Перельман

@LuisMendo It's not simultaneous, everyone starts when convenient.

Helka Homba

6:51 PM

@MartinEnder Too many edits would mean you forfeit since I think there needs to be some sort edit of limit. Or maybe we do something like: every edit by author counts as -5 upvotes for this contest after the second edit.

Martin Ender

It still discourages people from improving their challenge.

I'd say the quality of an actual challenge on main should be more important than participation in some unofficial challenge-writing contest.

Helka Homba

Competitors here should realize that if they know their challenge is bad, it would be better to forfeit and not post it in the first place, so as to avoid lots of bad new challenges. If they know it's bad they probably have a slim chance of winning anyway.

4

Martin Ender

there's a difference between a challenge being bad and having to fix some issues in a great challenge that weren't obvious from the start

in fact, since people might be trying to break new ground for the contest, it's even more likely that those challenges might need some touching up after they were posted

Riker

@HelkaHomba sounds like something to be pinned IMO

Helka Homba

@MartinEnder true

Martin Ender

6:57 PM

I also think that if a challenge is great and very popular after a few edits, the original idea must have been good enough to warrant a good score in the contest.

betseg

@ГригорийПерельман tis gon be hard

Martin Ender

And the case of someone posting utter crap and then editing it into a great challenge later to extend their deadline or whatever is prevented by forfeiting the challenge the moment it gets closed.

Григорий Перельман

@betseg That is the point

Helka Homba

@MartinEnder I was thinking it only matters if it's closed when we record the scores

Like, if it gets closed as unclear for an hour or two while more testcases are added thats ok

but idk, I'm ok with an "if it ever gets closed, you're out" rule

Martin Ender

@HelkaHomba that's a good point actually

Helka Homba

7:04 PM

@LuisMendo You choose when you start so you could schedule to have X hours free. I feel X = 2 hours is a good limit. X = 3 could also work but seems slightly too generous

AdmBorkBork

I'm kinda ambivalent on the edits and closing. I mean, part of the challenge here is to write a great challenge on the fly, yes? That's kinda the point of the competition? On the other hand, getting tags like chess fibonacci as my two kinda stretches the boundaries of a "good" challenge.

Helka Homba

@AdmBorkBork CMC: place a queen in the bottom right corner of every fibonacci square. Given N squares, how pairs of queens are attacking one another?

AdmBorkBork

Sure, I'm #justsayin

Helka Homba

Not actually sure it that's hard or trivial, but ideas can be plentiful :D

Григорий Перельман

@AdmBorkBork You get multiple sets of tags to chose from so that doesn't happen.

AdmBorkBork

7:14 PM

Oh, I missed that

Helka Homba

^^ that too

AdmBorkBork

That makes it different

With that, we should be stricter on the edits/closure rules, IMO.

Martin Ender

I agree that that makes sense for the competition, but the effect will be that people will keep their challenges in a suboptimal state to remain in the contest, which is bad for the overall challenge quality of the site.

AdmBorkBork

Well, get it right the first time. :D

Zgarb

7:39 PM

@Riker It would be fun, but I don't think I have time for it now.

Riker

@Zgarb hm, okay

betseg

@HelkaHomba CMC: knight's tour on a Fibonacci square?

Григорий Перельман

@Zgarb When will you have time? Time slots will stretch over a long period

xnor

8:05 PM

These rules seem to encourage poorly planned and rushed HNQ-bait challenges

8

Григорий Перельман

We're accepting suggestions to improve them.

xnor

Requiring challenge writers not to get feedback or make multiple edits tests their skills but makes challenges suffer

Григорий Перельман

How do you suggest improving the rules?

xnor

I'd suggest rethinking the whole premise to emphasize quality as the end product, rather than a trial by fire for the writers

Григорий Перельман

We can't really allow sandboxing the posts while also remaining fair to everyone.

Riker

8:09 PM

maybe they're allowed to privately talk to 1 user?

Григорий Перельман

I don't really like that.

I think the solution does end up being in changing the edit restriction

HackMDs are globally editable, write in anything you think is best

xnor

What if each answerer scored how much they liked golfing the challenge, and average those scores?

Григорий Перельман

What if the challenge you create is some incredibly difficult task, that eventually gets a single answer after several weeks?

xnor

I think these would reflect quality more than voters, who I expect will vote more on humor or presentation than the value it brings as a challenge

Григорий Перельман

I think that I'll remove the restriction on edits entirely.

@xnor We could have a panel of judges from high-profile members of the community that aren't participating

Riker

8:17 PM

ehhh

Григорий Перельман

Like Martin Ender and others

Riker

kinda subjective

Григорий Перельман

It'll be subjective regardless.

The criterion is "Best challenge"

AdmBorkBork

Well ... does it need to be a contest?

What if we just have it as an event?

3

A way to have challenge writers think outside the box and write something different for the site.

Григорий Перельман

Sadly, this is a true story. At least I learned about the OS X 'say' command.

Me right now

@AdmBorkBork This is a great idea

AdmBorkBork

8:23 PM

I mean, we've been hemming and hawing about creating some sort of recurring event for challenge writing, like the fortnight challenges way back when, but it seems we haven't been able to come up with anything specific.

Luis Mendo

9:06 PM

@HelkaHomba Ah, that makes more sense. But it's probably not the sort of competition for me. I may find it hard to find 2 or 3 hours in advance

ais523

10:01 PM

I'm not sure if a competition would change the number of challenges I set, although it might help to give me ideas

I would say that I think the competition would work better if anyone could just join in without formally registering

maybe produce a formula that selects the sets of tags based on PPCG user ID and some sort of keyed hash, release the hash at the start of the tournament

that way people can just drop in and decide to participate

Григорий Перельман

10:22 PM

@ais523 The "Formal Signup" thing is just so we know to ping you when it starts. Anyone can enter whenever. I want to point out that each person doesn't go simultaneously, we all go at seperate times with seperate tags

TacoLemon

The problem with X hours is that some of us may not be awake to participate, See: Timezones.

Destructible Lemon

so can I just join?

Martin Ender

@TacoLemon there are no fixed X hours. The X hours start (for you) whenever you're ready.

TacoLemon

All is well then.

Destructible Lemon

cool

Martin Ender

10:32 PM

A vague idea to remove the quality issues while keeping the contest nature: one per week each user can generate a tag pair (or several) and post a corresponding challenge within the week. Sandboxing, edits and everything allowed. And then we simply keep track of a global leaderboard of how many positively-scoring challenges you've written in this format.

Maybe keep track of streaks or penalise discarding tag pairs to get a new one.

ais523

simplest possible idea: a random challenge inspiration generator that anyone can use at any time

without any formal victory conditions for using it

Martin Ender

But I think removing the incentive to get a lot of votes (while disallowing sandboxing) would go a long way to avoid HNQ-bait results.

@ais523 I guess the difference is, that is just a way to look for ideas until you like one whereas here the idea is more that you need to think outside the box a bit to work with the tags you're given.

ais523

what's the opinion on HNQ-bait, anyway?

sometimes you can do it intentionally, sometimes it's 100% unavoidable

Destructible Lemon

maybe we should have judges?

TacoLemon

HNQ-Bait?

ais523

10:36 PM

and sometimes a question's unlikely to make HNQ (likely due to being too difficult to attract a flood of quick answers)

@TacoLemon: a question which will almost inevitably make the "hot network questions" sidebar (shown on almost every page of every Stack Exchange site)

the formula for it is broken, to the extent that it's easy to get there intentionally if you want to

PPCG currently has a question (this one) at the #2 spot on the list that the questions are drawn from (meaning that it's considered the second most worthy to be there)

it's not uncommon for PPCG to take something like 3 spots in the top 10 (especially if people from PPCG are trying to get there)

there's various debates about how much of a good thing and/or bad thing PPCG exposure is

TacoLemon

I'm just amazed that Excel is winning.

ais523

it just happens to have a builtin that solves the problem

that tends to cause languages to win

TacoLemon

I'm surprised nothing else does.

ais523

(except sometimes Mathematica, which has so many builtins that they often need fairly long names, allowing golfing languages to reimplement the builtin in fewer characters than its name)

Григорий Перельман

10:53 PM

Until someone bothers to figure out how mthmtca works.

Destructible Lemon

11:09 PM

wait dammit wrong room

sorry

Transcript for

Challenge-Writing Contest