The APL Orchard

Bubbler

6:01 AM

CMP: What should be the titles for * and ⍣ respectively on APL Wiki?

I have two candidates: Power (function) and Power (operator) vs. Power and Power operator (or Power Operator)

Adám

@Bubbler I think the former is most fitting, but they'll both need :''This article as about… cf. Index.

A more radical alternative would be Exponent and Iterate/Iterate/Repeat.

Bubbler

@Adám Yeah, I guess so. Then should f⍤k be Rank (operator) too?

Adám

@Bubbler Yes; see the current "Rank" page's reference at the top.

(Hm, Rank a precise name for the operator, but doesn't fit grammatically. It could really be called On [cells of rank] which would then read nicely with the Atop symbol pairing; On [the result of].)

(Even better considering Over [the g's with] and my proposed Depth operator; Over [leaves of depth].)

dzaima

10:21 AM

@Adám interesting performance change

Adám

@dzaima I don't think you can conclude much from such small numbers and differences. Is this consistently what you get?

RGS

@Adám would it make sense to wait for 18.0 to do this?

Adám

@RGS Depends if you want to demonstrate any of the new features: Highlighting control structures, names, and the experimental multi-line input.

dzaima

@Adám doubling each dimension already gets me to WS FULL (i have more RAM but no configuration for using it) and it's consistent enough for me and i did run the comparisons a couple times

Adám

@dzaima So you're saying ⍳ got slower but ⍸ got much faster. The latter is expected.

dzaima

10:28 AM

@Adám i was more intrigued by the best performing one changing, but i guess that's the more "useful" way to look at it

@Adám bigger numbers do flip them around actually. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Adám

@dzaima cmpx might have slightly better precision.

dzaima

(oh, didn't look at the timing, it's at second level..)

RGS

@Adám I have no idea yet, haven't given it much thought... Just wanted to check in and recall the major changes that the IDE was subject to

dzaima

10:52 AM

with more testing, seems big inputs of ⍳ do really get a boost, and i guess that's where performance really matters

Jeff Zeitlin

3:46 PM

@Adám - I think 'Exponent' or 'Exponentiation' for * and 'Iterate/Repeat' for ⍣ are probably the best choices. I do know that in TradAPL, I always thought of * as 'exponentiation'.

Adám

@JeffZeitlin X*Y being "exponentiation" also fits better with *Y being "exponential".

Jeff Zeitlin

@Adám - *Y is still exponentiation; it's just that the left argument is the default Naperian e.

RGS

@JeffZeitlin I would be even more nonchalant about it and say "*Y is still exponentiation defaulting to base e"

Adám

- can be called "minus" in both forms too, and ⍟ can be called "logarithm" in both forms. How about ÷?

RGS

@Adám X÷Y is the same as X×÷Y, is it too farfetched to call ÷ "multiplication by inverse?"

or smth along those lines

Jeff Zeitlin

3:57 PM

÷Y is reciprocal of Y, correct? That's 1÷Y, so it's still division; default dividend of 1. But calling it 'reciprocal' when used monadically is clearer. Unfortunately, monadic × doesn't seem to have the same sort of obvious correspondence to dyadic ×

Adám

@JeffZeitlin It is (almost, only exception is zero) multiplication with the default left argument being the reciprocal magnitude.

Jeff Zeitlin

@Adám - OK, but I'm not sure I like that, since the 'default' for the left argument is actually a function of the right argument.

Adám

@JeffZeitlin So? You can even see the default left arg for | as being negative twice the right argument (for real numbers).

dzaima

@Adám for ×, except 0, you can choose an ⍺ default function to get any mapping for the monadic case, making the whole idea pretty much pointless

Jeff Zeitlin

@Adám - Actually, that's a monad/dyad pair that I don't see as being related. Modulo and Absolute Value are just conceptually a bit too far apart. I also don't really see Multiplication and Signum to be related.

Adám

4:06 PM

@JeffZeitlin Yeah, I also thought so about | originally, until I learned that both absolute value and division remainder are called "Modulus".

But ×, yeah, that's a bit arbitrary.

Jeff Zeitlin

@Adám - Really? I can't say I've ever heard Absolute Value called "Modulus"...

dzaima

@Adám (i absolutely hate that fact, and even in latvian where "modulis" is the only term for absolute value i either don't use any name or still call it absolute value)

Adám

@JeffZeitlin Wikipedia

Jeff Zeitlin

(I will concede, however, that I am not a mathemagician)

RGS

@JeffZeitlin 🙃 in Pt-Pt we call "modulus" to monadic |

and I guess it makes sense because "modulus" looks a lot like a latin word and Pt-Pt comes from latin so I'm sure everything is related.

in school we are even taught to call |Y "modulus" before calling it "absolute value" iirc

Jeff Zeitlin

4:15 PM

I'll concede the point; as I said, I'm not a mathematician, and my entire math education ended with Calculus - and I was taught in en-US, where it seems that the default is to call |X absolute value, and Y|X is "remainder" until you get involved in computers, when you learn that the function is usually MOD(), modulus.

Adám

4:28 PM

But really |Y is magnitude. Neither modulus ("small measure") nor absolute value (what does that even mean‽) makes much sense.

RGS

@Adám (I guess abs value means the actual distance to 0)

Jeff Zeitlin

@RGS - Yes. Try it (in Dyalog) with a complex number (e.g., 1J1)

RGS

4:57 PM

@JeffZeitlin but for complex numbers it no longer makes sense to call it absolute value, or at least I never heard it. For complex numbers I have used/heard modulus

So I really was trying to give a meaning for the "absolute value" when applied to real numbers

Jeff Zeitlin

5:29 PM

@RGS - For complex numbers, I learned that "You can think of it as 'absolute value', but it should really be called 'magnitude', and it is the same as the 'r' in `r cis theta' notation."

dzaima

wrote yet another timing function, and wow average is unreliable..
https://dzaima.github.io/paste#03ZbNSxtBFMDv@SseXrKrdrszO5PdvXjxUDxIL0uvkkP8OKQEFBEkUES0jY4oRBTak/SQQ/GiUpBCQf@Szl/S97FpIDSHQHJIlmXf186bN7@8mU2xDv7kEg4rAP7ieu09GjHqxfpGS6FOfo68W2VtA33ePYMi3/beTrMB3j1xqBgd6idptfAdLZZ78p0j774uo3r90lON2utP73oQBEtvUftyFxYhLGPWzim6A3/eiSFSEFmIclCvNzjVGxVy9KzAlG1awckVVL27gKC5G1ahWt/fwmdz5yM@Vby3jcKKyEU06wdVGNTxLOt@6XHl7QpeK1T3hzWsG9d1djyAxNYmaoF391S4d49/rj5jtjss9jea90BV9jA3hkLvHkIeoxoJTgMLm2DjeGG0HCOvDDgkpnTT@wFp9DrOSPqiDikTPR7QbMsQNFDhCSu@e@67nyZ6/5iOZ8i8xNKP@r86/OfCMHYCS@wFltQNJG0pqR8oXD8gCxN@mz…

Avi F. S.

5:56 PM

@all A question at a much lower level than you guys are discussing: How does one edit/manipulate a .dyalog file in RIDE? So far, I've only been able to find stuff for .dws, which @Adám mentioned previously is only really used for stuff which is made by, and intended for, the same person. And slightly dated.

As you can imagine .dyalog is a rather hard thing to get helpful results for in APLWiki & anywhere else. Swamped by other stuff, instead

Jeff Zeitlin

.dyalogs are text files with APL source in them, correct? You might need to use SALT/LINK to interact with them.

Adám

@AviF.S. Firstly, you can simply edit it as a text file, including using the built-in editor: )ed /path/filename.dyalog

Avi F. S.

That's perfect, thanks a bunch! I have up until now been editing as a text file in other IDEs, but they're font rendering of APL symbols, and the syntax highlighting, are dismal enough to render me constantly miserable!

Adám

@AviF.S. Secondly, you can, as Jeff alludes to, 2⎕FIX'file://path/filename.dyalog' the content, and then any edits to the then "fixed" content will be reflected in the file too.

Avi F. S.

Had no idea you could )ed a file though, super helpful, thanks a bunch!

@Adám Less clear on this one, what do you mean?

Re: "the then "fixed" content will be reflected in the file too."

Adám

6:01 PM

@AviF.S. If you ⎕FIX the file, any content becomes items in your workspace. IF you edit any such item, the file is synced.

Avi F. S.

Also, is there a way to then get the interpreter to actually load it in, to then run functions from the file interactively in RIDE?

@Adám You mean you can edit the file, and then the items in your workspace will be updated?

I'll read the documentation on ⎕FIX, maybe that's the loading in then that I was asking about?

Adám

@AviF.S. If you use Link, yes, even that, but I was saying if you edit the items in the workspace, the file will be updated.

@AviF.S. Yes, you can use ⎕FIX (or Link) for that, making the content available to run.

Avi F. S.

@Adám Ah, even better! Thanks :) Trying it out, though currently not finding the file for either )ed nor 2⎕FIX even though Cmd-Shift-G'ing it does...

⎕FIX should have 'file://' prepended, and )ed shouldn't, no?

Adám

@AviF.S. Correct. ⎕FIX is a relatively new feature, and was designed with extendability to ftp://, http:// etc. in mind.

Avi F. S.

Does it work correctly in 17.0?

Adám

6:16 PM

@AviF.S. Does what work?

Avi F. S.

It's especially odd because ⎕NGET finds the file just fine...

@Adám ⎕FIX. Though also )ed'ing files, for that matter

Neither )ed nor ⎕FIX are doing the trick, but ⎕NGET on the same address works...

Adám

@AviF.S. Can you paste exactly what you're writing? Also, what kind of content do you have in the file?

(feel free to sensor personal names from the file paths)

Avi F. S.

@Adám Sure! So I'm just using the mobile.txt now, since I know that's working:

⍪ ⊃⎕NGET '/Users/avi/Downloads/Contest2020/Data/mobile2.txt' 1

)ed '/Users/avi/Downloads/Contest2020/Data/mobile2.txt'

2 ⎕FIX 'file://Users/avi/Downloads/Contest2020/Data/mobile2.txt'

Sorry, don't know why the spacing is so dramatic ⍤

Adám

@AviF.S. That should be without quotes.

@AviF.S. That's missing a leading slash: file:///Users…

Avi F. S.

But, the first one works and the other two don't

I tried this too, if that's what you mean:
`2 ⎕FIX 'file:///Users/avi/Downloads/Contest2020/Data/mobile2.txt'`

Adám

6:22 PM

@AviF.S. Because you're using Ctrl+K instead of backticks.

@AviF.S. … backticks not working in multi-line messages. (SE Chat is finicky.)

@AviF.S. OK, that's better. Now let's see, does 2⎕FIX⊃⎕NGET'/Users/avi/Downloads/Contest2020/Data/mobile2.txt'1 work?

Avi F. S.

Ah, I see, you're right I did do that. I wanted all three to be one message. But my shift key is dying so shift-return wasn't working

@Adám Argh, it worked in my 17.1 version so I restarted 17.0 and then tried it there, and ⎕FIX worked...

I never restarted :(

Though )ed is still now working...

Super sorry about the whole ⎕FIX deal, though

So for ed, I keep doing:
)ed '/Users/avi/Downloads/Contest2020/my-code/lib.dyalog'

Adám

Yeah, but single quotes are valid in file names.

Avi F. S.

But it doesn't work without them either, I also did try that...

Unless it is supposed to say:

The specified file does not exist. Do you want to create it?

Adám

@AviF.S. Did you try with file:///Users ?

Avi F. S.

Was that supposed to be happening? Even though ⎕NGET and others find it just fine, and it does exist/

Adám

6:29 PM

Hold on, are you on Windows?

Avi F. S.

Yup...

Oh whoops, no... I'm on Unix, I'm an idiot

Was I supposed to tell you that?

MacOS RIDE

Adám

It makes a difference for which symbol one uses to separate directories.

It is just that your specific file path looks very Windowsy.

Avi F. S.

But I was using the Unix format, no?

Adám

Yes. Try with \ instead of /

dzaima

@Adám (i caught myself doing that so much in dzaima/APL i added an error message for it :P)

Avi F. S.

6:31 PM

I thought Windows was c//... or something else

Something with a c: at the beginning, or something

Adám

@AviF.S. You don't have to include the drive if it is the current drive.

Avi F. S.

I see!

@Adám Will do!

dzaima

@Adám ah, that's the logic, was about to ask. (why though)

Adám

@AviF.S. Well, if you're on Windows. I'm frankly a bit confused by now.

Avi F. S.

@Adám No, I'm on MacOS

Adám

6:32 PM

@dzaima Well, Windows has the concept of "drives". UX doesn't.

@AviF.S. Then are you sure that's the right path to the file? What does ⎕NEXISTS say?

Avi F. S.

I've never seen backslashes as anything but escaping... But no, doesn't work

Adám

@AviF.S. OK, so let's backtrack. What exactly does work?

Avi F. S.

@Adám Yes, I quadruple checked. It works in Finder/terminal/⎕NGET/⎕FIX

Adám

@AviF.S. Huh, so what doesn't work?

Avi F. S.

@Adám Sorry, I lost connection. In APL, what works: ⎕NGET, ⎕FIX & ⎕NEXISTS

In APL what doesn't work: )ed

dzaima

6:38 PM

@AviF.S. how about )ed //Users/…/? without the leading double-slash it doesn't work on linux either

Avi F. S.

Though it's not that it doesn't work, I just always get a notification that the file doesn't exist and asking if I want to create it

Adám

@AviF.S. OK, how about putting double quotes around the name?

@AviF.S. Yeah, I can see that too when it doesn't understand the path.

@dzaima Hm, that does look like a bug in the interpreter. I'll look into that.

Avi F. S.

@Adám Plot Twist: I never clicked 'yes I want to do it anyway even though you think the file doesn't exist' because I was afraid it'd override it

But I backed it up elsewhere, and tried saying yes

If I say 'yes', I then get the error: There was an error ("FILE NAME ERROR") with the specified file

So, it's not as simple after all as it thinking it doesn't exist... Or maybe it is?

AKA it says:

The specified file does not exist. Do you want to create it?
[No]
[Yes]

Adám

@AviF.S. No, it seems to strip the leading /

Avi F. S.

And then gives: There was an error ("FILE NAME ERROR") with the specified file, when I click [Yes], which I hadn't tried due to fear of overriding the file

@Adám What do you mean?

Adám

6:44 PM

@AviF.S. did you try dzaima's trick with an extra leading slash?

Avi F. S.

@Adám Sorry, @dzaima, totally lost your comment in the passion of the moment :) Tried it just now, but to no avail...

Again, not that it doesn't work, it just tells me it doesn't exist. And then if I say I want to do it anyway, it gives FILE NAME ERROR

Adám

@AviF.S. Did you try )ed file:///Users/…?

Avi F. S.

@Adám Yup! All of that...

Is it meaningful that Cmd-Clicking it doesn't work though?

I mean, ⎕NGET and such still work, but Cmd-Clicking doesn't

Adám

@AviF.S. OK, one last attempt: Use the menu (should be the leftmost one) and select "Open…"

dzaima

@AviF.S. how about ]cd / and then )ed Users/…?

Avi F. S.

6:49 PM

@Adám .............

Adám

@AviF.S. … then navigate to and select the file. Then carefully observe what RIDE enters into the session.

Avi F. S.

You're kidding...

@Adám Both of them work, and both of them do the thing. I just had to remove the quotation marks. How silly ⍤⍥⍤

Of me, I mean. I feel terrible, haha

But I swear I've tried Open before and I could've sworn it only worked with .dws & not with .dyalog

But maybe it was the other way around...?...

Adám

Oh well, problem solved.

dzaima

@Adám can we get an extended error message if there's a leading & trailing single-quote? :P

Avi F. S.

Huh, just tried. I guess it does work with both... Could've sworn otherwise. Oh well...

@Adám @dzaima Yeah, thanks a super, million, billion, gazillion bunch, guys!

dzaima

6:53 PM

@dzaima (RIDEs "'/file/path'" in variable-width font isn't very helpful either)

Avi F. S.

@Adám Just for the record though, Cmd-Click still doesn't work for file names. It does work for https://, but not for files

@dzaima Oh? What does that mean?

Adám

@dzaima Not from a system command, as they are not part of the language.

@dzaima ^^

Avi F. S.

@Adám I do get a Can't Reformat warning. It looks fine, but what does that mean?

dzaima

@Adám huh, i had always assumed it to be because Windows Weirdness™.

Avi F. S.

@Adám Also, am a bit puzzled re: ⎕FIX, and couldn't parse the docs... You said: 'If you ⎕FIX the file, any content becomes items in your workspace.'

Perhaps, I don't know what a workspace is?

When I )vars or )fns, nothing comes up...

So it must be elsewhere?

Adám

6:59 PM

@AviF.S. Your code is not valid according to APL's syntax rules.

@AviF.S. Because of ^

Avi F. S.

You mean because of the reformat error?

Adám

42 mins ago, by Adám

@AviF.S. Can you paste exactly what you're writing? Also, what kind of content do you have in the file?

@AviF.S. You never answered my second question ^?

Avi F. S.

@Adám Wow, 42 minutes ⍤⍥⍤

I'm sucking up everyone's evening...

Yes, just a sec:

I'm testing to see if the format is the issue, but it's a library of short useful functions a year ago when I was first starting

And before I knew of APLCart

So it has the format:

dfn1←{}
dfn2←{}
dfn3←{}
... ← ...

Which may not be valid

Yeah, I think that was the issue. With only one dfn, it loads in fine...

Adám

@AviF.S. Right, that's not an APL item, but a bunch of them. Try putting them into a namespace by adding a line at the top saying :Namespace myUtils and add a line on the bottom saying :EndNamespace.

Avi F. S.

@Adám I was just typing a question about whether I needed to create a namespace, haha!

Adám

7:05 PM

@AviF.S. Are all the functions one-liner dfns?

Avi F. S.

@Adám Yeah, some are really long, but again, this was really just my before-I-knew-of-APLCart

Adám

@AviF.S. I'm just surprised. If all a one-liner dfns, then 2⎕FIX should work. Oh, wait, that does work, doesn't it? Only reformatting doesn't?

Avi F. S.

@Adám Sorry, was definitely not supposed to take this much of your time. Yes, it not working was from before I reformatted with the additional :Namespace bits

Though, now ⎕FIX is just taking forever to load...

Adám

@AviF.S. Right, but 2⎕FIX should work without :Namespace.

Avi F. S.

@Adám Ah, odd...

It had said: DOMAIN ERROR: There were errors processing the script

Adám

7:11 PM

Do you mind emailing me a copy of that file (I'm under NDA of course)?

Avi F. S.

@Adám Shoot, this is only the first thing that's entirely my fault... right?

I had a line in there to calculate some OEIS series to the 10*6's digit, for some reason...

I removed it and it loads in just fine

Adám

;-)

Avi F. S.

That's why it was taking forever. The domain error I know not from whence it came, but it's no more!

@Adám This is really neat, it opens up a whole new world (cue Aladdin). Thanks a bunch!

I remember lib.collatz/#.lib.collatz

How do I view the elements of the namespace though? Or maybe there's already a webinar on this stuff?

But, for instance, they don't show up under )fns, so how does one navigate to the namespace to display the functions in the lib namespace?

Adám

@AviF.S. You can edit the entire namespace, or ask for its member functions with lib.⎕NL ¯2

@AviF.S. You can navigate to it with )cs lib (Change Space) or ⎕CS

Avi F. S.

@Adám So super neat, thanks a bunch!

So )cs lib and then )fns works great, but trouble with lib.⎕NL ¯2

Adám

7:19 PM

@AviF.S. Thank you; I'll add "navigate" to APLcart for )cs and ⎕CS.

@AviF.S. Sorry, typo. ¯3.

Avi F. S.

@Adám Nope, thank you!!

@Adám Maybe add )cs # for navigate to root directory, too? ("navigate root")

One definitely has to know the # symbol in advance, to ever figure out how to get out!

Adám

@AviF.S. Ah, good one.

Avi F. S.

@Adám And maybe )cs parent? I imagine there's such a thing?

Haven't figured it out yet!

Adám

@AviF.S. Did you search for "parent namespace"?

Avi F. S.

@Adám Ah you're right! Was busy checking documentation! Never occurred to me you were already so on top of the game with APLCart!

"reference to root" also already comes up!

One small complaint: Hovering over a function name from that namespace doc gives you the mouse window thing of the entire doc, not of the function. Anyway to change that?

Shift-return also takes you to the whole doc, which makes sense, but at least moves your mouse to the right line!

Adám

7:30 PM

@AviF.S. Only by splitting the file up, or unscripting the namespace.

Avi F. S.

@Adám What does unscripting the namespace mean?

Adám

@AviF.S. Right now, you namespace is defined using a text "script". By "removing" that document, each function reverts to have its own separate definition. Try searching APLcart for "remove namespace script".

Avi F. S.

@Adám Ah, I see, thanks!

Wondering if there's a way to make ⎕FIX & )ed filename easier to find in APLCart. Maybe they can be added to the tips page?

Adám

@AviF.S. But note, if you use this method, your changes won't be written back to file any more. (Should be obvious, but just saying.)

Avi F. S.

And maybe a webinar at some point on loading/saving workspaces/files/namespaces?

@Adám 'Course, thanks!

Adám

7:36 PM

@RichardPark ^^

@AviF.S. Good ideas. Can you confirm exactly what syntax for )ed worked for you?

Avi F. S.

@Adám Also )ed filename isn't in APLCart yet, just )ed -/∇/etc. Though, I'm not sure that's the best place to find it anyway, as it'll get lost among the other file-related things. Perhaps in the tips, though!?

@Adám Sure!

2 ⎕FIX                    'file:///Users/.../file.dyalog'
)ed                        file:///Users/.../file.dyalog
⎕NEXISTS/⎕NGETS           '/Users/.../file.dyalog'

2 ⎕FIX:                  Quotes       +        'file://'
)ed:                  NO Quotes       +        'file://'
⎕NEXISTS/⎕NGETS:         Quotes       +     NO 'file://'

@Adám ^^^

Adám

@AviF.S. Thanks, added to tips.

Avi F. S.

Would've made it into an actual table, except somehow it actually seems easier to read this way

Kind of funny how ridiculously inconsistent the file format is though. I didn't notice until the table really screamed it out. There's just one permutation missing, namely NO Quotes + NO 'file://' I'm waiting on that one coming out to complete the set in 18.0!

Adám

SE Markdown doesn't support tables. Anyway, I just needed the )ed line.

@AviF.S. That works with unambiguous paths ¯\_(⍨)_/¯

Avi F. S.

7:51 PM

@Adám Haha, my goodness! And there we have the complete set!

@Adám Yes but there are websites where one can make a table with markdown format and then copy and paste the whole thing rendered with the ┌───┴───┐ pipes, and such!

These:
┌─────┐
│1 2 3│
└─────┘

@Adám Any talk of making the file path format more consistent?

Also, how does one find your tips, again?

Adám

@AviF.S. While there's really no excuse for this mess, there is an explanation. System commands )nnnn don't need quotes (quotes will be taken literally) as they are not APL syntax. Nothing needs file:// except the editor itself. ⎕FIX and )ed are both (below the hood) interfaces to the editor.

@AviF.S. That was my not-work project for today: abrudz.github.io

Avi F. S.

@Adám I suppose that makes sense... thanks for the explanation. Still seems like one should be able to do it nonetheless, but I suppose one gets used to it and it becomes a non-problem

@Adám Woah, there's way more than I realized, thanks a bunch! There should be a link from the Wiki to your page, no? Also, which part was your project for today?

Adám

9:39 PM

@AviF.S. I don't really like to edit the APL Wiki page about myself. Anyway, today, I did the front page and harmonised the tips and guide with global styling.

RGS

10:19 PM

@Adám nice ;)

Avi F. S.

11:22 PM

@Adám Sounds fair. At some point, once a good amount amass, seems reasonable to add an unofficial 'Other APL Resources' section where we might start adding things like abrudz.github.io, methinks. I just don't know of any others to add ATM... Ah, RGS's make your own APL interpreter series, dzaima's github on the dialect & RP's Perl Weekly YT?

Anyway, the front page & styling does look good!

@RichardPark For the webinar suggestion, Adám tagged you earlier. More specifically, if that's too vague, the sorts of things that'd be nice are the things fast-forwarded over to get your workspace set up between ~ 0:50 - 1:15 in your Week 60 video

Adám

@AviF.S. Regarding my contributions, they could be mentioned briefly in the text along the lines of "he has also published various resources" with a reference. dzaima/APL already has its own page, and examples/teaching materials have their pages too.

@AviF.S. Thanks. Wanted to keep it clean with minimal (i.e. no required) JavaScript. For web, I prefer to replace JavaScript with CSS, and JavaScript libraries with vanilla.js

Avi F. S.

Things like: ]create, ]cd, ⎕sh for ls & such, ]link. And then from before, too: ⎕NGET, ⎕FIX, )ed files, )cs + ##/# & also built in name-spaces we should now about like ⎕SE (and how to maneuver about within them! Also )continue, )load, )save!

Adám

@AviF.S. btw, you don't need ⎕SH for ls since there's ⎕NINFO which works cross-platform.

Avi F. S.

@Adám Ah neat, thanks!

I've always just opened RIDE and started messing around. And then if I wanted to keep something, I copy and paste it to some text file. And then paste it back in when I want it. I only a few days ago found about )continue, )save & )load. So using those is the extent of wizardry I'm comfortable with. Along with the stuff @Adám taught me earlier today!

Of course, one could read the documentation for everything I just sent, but it'd be nice to see them be used in tandem in a regular workflow. Much easier to learn that way!

@Adám It most definitely does look clean, interesting move on the JS :)

@Adám But not unofficial things like RGS's interpreter thing/mathspp which often has code in APL to demonstrate stuff, nor RP's Weekly Perl

None of it is good to learn from in isolation, but it seems equivalent to reading literature/watching movies & tv shows in a human language one is trying to learn. As opposed to just going to formal classes & reading grammar textbooks

It can be nice to get a feel for a language by observing it's users/speakers/practitioners, rather than only from the authoritative whatevers!

That's of course a more general philosophy, which isn't even necessary to justify your site, which has far more traditional helpful things like a style guide!

@RGS @dzaima @Bubbler @xpqz @JeffZeitlin Curious: Do you know how to make use of RIDE well & then access/save/modify work with things like:

]create, ]cd, ⎕sh for ls & such, ]link. ⎕NGET, ⎕FIX, )ed files, )cs + ##/# & built-in name-spaces like ⎕SE + how to maneuver within them! And )continue, )load, )save!

dzaima

11:44 PM

@AviF.S. dzaima/APL isn't any "official" thing either. it's just my pet project that has somehow managed to become a half-usable easily extendable APL

Bubbler

@AviF.S. I mainly use RIDE with Acre.

Avi F. S.

@dzaima Of course, but for all sorts of who-knows-what reasons, it seems to has attained a level in the APL community above many of the other things I mentioned. Blogs/youtube videos/github.io pages have even more of a casual air to them than functional APL dialects!

@Bubbler Wow, very neat! I'm certainly having a look at it :)

I do quite like that a project is a namespace within RIDE, and a folder outside! Though I wouldn't feel justified in using it until I'm more comfortable with how RIDE is intended to be used. Feels like an instance of learning the rules before breaking (or adding) to them!

Adám

@AviF.S. fyi, RIDE has nothing to do with it. It is simply a (dumb) Remote interface to the language engine.

dzaima

@AviF.S. though i haven't used Dyalog/RIDE much lately due to using my own impl being free testing, i always either just wrote in the RIDE editor with no reference to files (copying out later if needed), or wrote everything in files, edited externally and just loaded in the REPL for testing/using.

Avi F. S.

@Adám Ah, interesting, thanks. I thought things that began with ) and ] were not parts of the language, but rather of the interface

@dzaima Ah, thanks! Makes me feel much better about my current way of doing things :)

Adám

11:56 PM

@AviF.S. ) are command directly to the language engine, without being part of the language. ] is just asyntactic sugar for the ⎕SE.UCMD function. You can fairly easily start the interpreter without starting RIDE first (though it is slightly involved on macOS). If you try it, be aware that the interface you'll get isn't very nice.

Avi F. S.

My goodness, that's super interesting!

But how can something like )ed mean anything in the language? I thought it was just an instruction to the interface to pull up an editable window

Bubbler

I like RIDE because it supports native Ctrl+C/V and entering glyphs with backtick sequences (like the in-browser language bar). I've never got used to Windows IME thing (and therefore the Windows IDE).

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