The APL Orchard

Uriel

12:35 AM

@Adám I saw your comment, im too tired to go through, going to sleep. I'll check it up tomorrow morning. Thanks!

Erik the Outgolfer

1:36 PM

aplwiki.com/UnicodeAplTable

correction: ⍁ is used, in ngn/apl!

also @ngn what font does this use?

I can see it uses APL385, but ↗ isn't in it?

Adám

@EriktheOutgolfer The browser will fall back to whichever font has it. My Firefox Quantum/Windows 10 falls back to Segoe UI for that character.

@EriktheOutgolfer I've previously reported missing characters there, with good result. I'll report ⍁⍶⍹∞ as well. Am I missing more?

Erik the Outgolfer

@Adám I think so? wait a bit

Adám

1:52 PM

@EriktheOutgolfer OK, I have an email ready, but will hold off. You can also email Kai yourself, for this or anything else. He's very nice.

Erik the Outgolfer

@Adám for one, I don't know if ↗ should be added there, since it's not in the APL385 font

Adám

@EriktheOutgolfer Ah, the font shouldn't matter, should it? NARS uses ⊙ which isn't in the font either, iirc.

Erik the Outgolfer

@Adám or ≈, which is in ngn/apl's language bar but isn't actually implemented

Adám

@EriktheOutgolfer That one is more questionable, since it is meaningless. Kind of like how Dyalog's default keyboards include ⍫ and ⍥ though they are not used.

Erik the Outgolfer

@Adám actually, I'd not consider that used

Adám

1:57 PM

@EriktheOutgolfer In principle, ngn/apl "uses" all Unicode symbols ;-)

Erik the Outgolfer

@Adám huh?

Adám

@EriktheOutgolfer Since every character is either a valid identifier char or considers a stand-alone symbol that you can give meaning.

Erik the Outgolfer

@Adám In that case, there are a few chars such as ý which should be removed :p

or maybe the whole alphabet ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZabcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz

Adám

@EriktheOutgolfer I think the top table is just sorted Dyalog ⎕AV, plus chars used by any APL.

Erik the Outgolfer

including the dead APLX

sure

Adám

2:02 PM

@EriktheOutgolfer … which he falsely claims isn't available.

Erik the Outgolfer

@Adám yeah it's available from here

@Adám also I've found an issue with Dyalog Forums

specifically, I can't register at all

already contacted the admin to no avail

Adám

@EriktheOutgolfer When? And who?

Erik the Outgolfer

huh?

support@

oh, "Vince"

Adám

@EriktheOutgolfer Seems like the right place. When was that?

Erik the Outgolfer

@Adám nov. 16

looks like I got a belated reply

Adám

2:13 PM

@EriktheOutgolfer Oh?

Erik the Outgolfer

@Adám I replied, and tried for a third time, let's see...

Adám

@EriktheOutgolfer How does this look?
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
A few corrections:

It is untrue that APLX is "no longer available" (see https://www.dyalog.com/aplx.htm) however, it is no longer developed.
Missing from the top table are ⍶ ⍹ ∞ ↗ which are all used by ngn/apl, and ⍁ is used by ngn/apl too, so it should be moved from bottom to top table.
Some glyphs used by NARS are still missing: π ‼ ∅ √ ⊇ ⊙ ⍦ ⍭

Erik the Outgolfer

@Adám nice

Adám

@EriktheOutgolfer Good. Sent.

ngn

@EriktheOutgolfer Adrian Smith's APL385

Adám

2:28 PM

I'm making a new golfing language where Game of Life will be just four bytes: 3∊me

J. Sallé

@Adám Cool. What's it gonna be called?

Adám

@J.Sallé Stencil.

J. Sallé

@Adám Nice, any specific uses for it in mind?

Adám

@J.Sallé Most challenges where you'd want to use ⌺. Similar to how my QuadR and QuadS golfing languages are good fits for when you'd use ⎕R and ⎕S respectively.

3∊me means that either the moore neighbourhood with self or the moore neighbourhood without self has exactly three live cells.

J. Sallé

I see, I see. Good to have another APL variant to do the golfs

Also, ngn commented on my challenge! I hope he's trying to solve it in APL, it'd be cool hahahah

Erik the Outgolfer

2:47 PM

@J.Sallé APL variant? more like inspired by APL's Stencil

J. Sallé

@EriktheOutgolfer well, it's still a variant though

Technically speaking at least

Erik the Outgolfer

APL child, you may say, but I think "variant" means that it's intended to behave similarly to its parent

more like A Programming Language ==> IBM APL ==> Dyalog (Dyadic Systems) APL ==> Stencil

J. Sallé

Maybe. I've never been good with those pesky software engineering terms, so by 'variant' I mean something like a branch

Erik the Outgolfer

software engineering?

more like programming language philosophy and genealogy

(if that's a thing)

J. Sallé

Yeah, I've been taught a bunch of these terms in my SoftEng classes in college at least.

Emphasis on been taught rather than learned >.>

Adám

2:57 PM

@EriktheOutgolfer Funny enough, QuadR and QuadS are both subsets and supersets of Dyalog APL at the same time.

Erik the Outgolfer

@Adám huh? that can only happen if they're functionally equal to Dyalog APL

Adám

@EriktheOutgolfer And so they are.

Erik the Outgolfer

sure

Adám

@EriktheOutgolfer Being that ⎕R and ⎕S can take an arbitrary APL function as right operand, you can do anything inside that function which Dyalog APL can do. So they are thin covers for but a single APL operator, but still contain the entire power of Dyalog APL.

@EriktheOutgolfer And so too will Stencil be, as ⌺ can take an arbitrary left operand function.

ngn

@EriktheOutgolfer ah... now that I read your discussion with Adam, I can make a less stupid comment: when ↗ was added I gave no consideration to font issues. Font fallbacks seem to work just just fine. It's a historical accident that ngn/apl ended up with ↗. I might as well have chosen the skull and crossbones symbol if I wasn't advised better :)

Erik the Outgolfer

3:03 PM

@Adám $B\subseteq A\subseteq B\Longleftrightarrow A=B$

Adám

@EriktheOutgolfer No mathjax.

Erik the Outgolfer

@Adám B ⊆ A ⊆ B ⟺ A = B

Adám

@EriktheOutgolfer Ah. Yes. But not A ≡ B.

Erik the Outgolfer

@Adám nope

that is, if A and B are langugages

Adám

CMP: Did you know that a tradfn can return a monadic operator as result?

J. Sallé

3:10 PM

@Adám I did not

Adám

@J.Sallé Actually, maybe I'm wrong. Now I can't seem to make it work. :-D

Erik the Outgolfer

@Adám :/

      ∇F
[1]  {⍺⍺}
[2]  ∇
      F
      ∇{⍺⍺}
     ∇
      +F
      ∇{⍺⍺}
     ∇
VALUE ERROR: No result was provided when the context expected one
      +F
     ∧

Adám

@EriktheOutgolfer No, it seems to not work. However, tradfns certainly can return functions as result.

⎕←⎕FX'r←F' 'r←+' ⋄ ⎕←F/3 1 4

Dyalog APL

@Adám
F
8

Erik the Outgolfer

@Adám yeah

      ∇F
[1]  +
[2]  ∇
      F
+

ngn

3:17 PM

@J.Sallé To be honest, it doesn't seem like a hard challenge, yet it's very verbose, so I kind of gave up. Now that there's a Python solution it might be easier to just translate it into APL.

Adám

@EriktheOutgolfer That's not a result you can capture and/or use. You're just printing.

Erik the Outgolfer

      ∇R←F
[1]  R←+
[2]  ∇
      F
+
      1F 2
3

@Adám but this is

Adám

@EriktheOutgolfer Yes, and equivalent to what I wrote.

It also means you can take an argument and use it to select function.

⎕←⎕FX'r←F n' 'r←⍎n⊃''+-×÷''' ⋄ ⎕←3(F 1)4 ⋄ ⎕←3(F 4)4

Dyalog APL

@Adám
F
7
0.75

Erik the Outgolfer

wow ngn/apl ⍹

Adám

3:20 PM

F sure looks like an operator, but it isn't.

@EriktheOutgolfer What's the "wow"? That you can assign to ⍹? It is just an operand name.

Erik the Outgolfer

@Adám it's used in dops in ngn/apl, but outside them you can assign to it

Adám

@EriktheOutgolfer Not much of a wow to me. In some APL flavours, you could always assign to ⍺ and ⍵ as regular names, just like you can assign to ∆ and ⍙.

ngn

@EriktheOutgolfer you can reassign it in dops, too, it's just a name like any other

Adám

@ngn If ⍹ has a global value, is {⍹} still a dyadic dop?

ngn

@Adám my guess is yes

@Adám any pair of { } that contains directly a ⍵⍵ or ⍹ is considered a conjunction (dyadic operator) at compile time

Adám

3:34 PM

@ngn How about {⍹←⍺+⍵ ⋄ ⍺,⍹,⍵} ?

ngn

@Adám it contains a ⍹ so should be a conjunction

Adám

@ngn Ouch.

ngn

@Adám actually, it's a syntax error, because you're not allowed to change name class

@Adám {⍹←+ ⋄ ⍺,⍹,⍵} ⍝ this isn't a syntax error

Adám

@ngn Wait, what‽ What's the nameclass of ⍹ in 2(+{⍺ ⍺⍺ ⍹⍴⍵}3)4. It should give 6 6 6, no?

ngn

@Adám ngn/apl isn't Dyalog

Adám

3:39 PM

@ngn So dops may only take functions as operands in ngn/apl?

⍞←2(+{⍺ ⍺⍺ ⍵⍵⍴⍵}3)4

Dyalog APL

@Adám 6 6 6

ngn

@Adám in order to be able to compile, I postulated this restriction - the nameclasses of names should be known in advance; or, as I would put it: the grammatical categories of variables should be known at compile time

@Adám yes

Adám

@ngn But built-in ops can take array operands, right?

ngn

@Adám ⍣ certainly can, though I don't remember how it works

Adám

@ngn :-( No possibility to write covers for ⍣ and ⍤.

ngn

3:42 PM

@Adám it's a built-in, that's how

Adám

@ngn ⍨

ngn

@Adám ⍤ didn't exist when I wrote my apl :)

Adám

@ngn Oh.

Mr. Xcoder

4:13 PM

Nevermind....

Erik the Outgolfer

5:55 PM

@Adám @ngn

Adám

@EriktheOutgolfer ?

Erik the Outgolfer

ngn/apl. An APL dialect heavily based on Dyalog, written by a then-beginner in JavaScript, and performing surprisingly well. Judgements based on its bugs don't really get that it was written by a beginner in JavaScript, and it's made from scratch.

@Adám this. have any point to add? philosophical enough?

Adám

@EriktheOutgolfer Looks fine.

Erik the Outgolfer

@Adám thanks, at least now I've got a stable argument for its bugs :)

ngn

6:51 PM

@EriktheOutgolfer I was a beginner in APL, I already had a decade of experience with JS.

Erik the Outgolfer

@ngn ΩΩΩ___ΩΩΩ

ngn

@EriktheOutgolfer What is the description for?

Erik the Outgolfer

@ngn it was supposed to be an attempt to embrace ngn/apl against critics saying it's buggy -- of course it shouldn't be used for production folks, but the point is the sheer beauty coming out of its history

ngn

@EriktheOutgolfer I take it as encouragement to stop being lazy and fix a few of those bugs :)

Erik the Outgolfer

@ngn if you succeed overcoming your laziness then you'll be unique :D

many have tried, but ultimately failed

(note: [citation-needed])

ngn

6:56 PM

@EriktheOutgolfer "What do we want? End procrastination! When do we want it? Erm..."

Erik the Outgolfer

@ngn "...NOW!!!"

ngn

@EriktheOutgolfer What do we want? Now! When do we want it? Fewer race conditions!

Adám

@EriktheOutgolfer Many have tried, but none could be bothered.

ngn

@Adám I was surprised you didn't tell any empty array jokes yesterday.

@Adám it must have been because you were pressed for time

Adám

@ngn Here is an empty array joke, just for you:

ngn

7:03 PM

@Adám mwahaha :)

Adám

Dyalog APL now understands natural language:

@DyalogAPL If I have four apples, and remove four apples, what do I have then?

ngn

@Adám very good :) prototypes are funny too:

⎕←5↑1 2

Erik the Outgolfer

takes time to log out of one account, log into another, then post the answer, then log out of the other, then log back in to the original

Dyalog APL

@ngn
1 2 0 0 0

ngn

⎕←5↑'ab'

Dyalog APL

7:06 PM

@ngn
ab

Adám

@ngn I don't get it.

ngn

here's the joke: a customer in a shop criticizes the shop owner for not having any fish in the shop, "But sir, in this shop we have no vegetables. If you want no fish, go across the street."

⎕←⍬≡''

Dyalog APL

@ngn
0

ngn

Another one: a student writes to his father, "Dad, today I ran after the bus and saved 1.00". The answer: "Fool! You should have run after a taxi".

Erik the Outgolfer

I don't get this one

ngn

7:17 PM

@EriktheOutgolfer it's probably my bad English - the student ran behind the bus and didn't get on, so he can save from the ticket

@EriktheOutgolfer if he had run behind a taxi, he would have saved presumably more money from the fare

Erik the Outgolfer

I don't get it, why "run behind" and not just walk calmly?

Adám

– Can I have a coffee without cream? – No sir, we don't have any cream, but we do have milk. Would you like it without milk?

ngn

@EriktheOutgolfer I dont know, perhaps he would be late if he walks calmly :)

Adám

jsoftware.com/papers/eem/Empty_Array_Jokes.htm

Erik the Outgolfer

@Adám – Well, I just want a plain coffee.

Adám

7:21 PM

books.google.co.uk/…

ngn

@Adám nice! :)

⎕←5↑0⍴⊂0 0

Dyalog APL

@ngn
┌───┬───┬───┬───┬───┐
│0 0│0 0│0 0│0 0│0 0│
└───┴───┴───┴───┴───┘

ngn

⎕←5↑# ⍝ boom

Erik the Outgolfer

@Adám rip jokes 4-7

Dyalog APL

@ngn

Rebuilding user command cache... done
Was OFF -fns=off
⍎NONCE ERROR
 __field_initialize_result_←(⎕NS ⍬).⍎'⎕CY''salt''⋄⎕SE.UCMD''box on -fns=on''⊣enableSALT' ⋄ ⎕←5↑# ⍝ boom
                                                                                           ∧

Real time: 1.211 s
User time: 0.954 s
Sys. time: 0.071 s
CPU share: 84.59 %
Exit code: 0

Adám

7:27 PM

@ngn But notice that it is a nonce error, i.e. the system (=Geoff) recognises that we just haven't gotten around to implement it yet.

Erik the Outgolfer

truth be told

ngn

@Adám it's been only 50 years

Adám

@ngn No, objects are fairly new in APL.

One possibility would be to make the prototype of a ref be ⎕NULL.

ngn

@Adám yeah, right

Erik the Outgolfer

Dyalog. An APL dialect featuring cutting-edge evolution through its history.

ngn

7:31 PM

@Adám I will never get over the mutability of namespaces... probably the worst mistake after ⎕IO and ⎕CT

Erik the Outgolfer

(that means stuff is very often new)

Adám

@ngn It took a great many years before a good solution to floor and ceiling for complex numbers was found. Until it eventually was implemented, it gave NONCE.

@EriktheOutgolfer True. Dyalog was first with many things in the APL world.

@ngn Well, namespaces should probably be mutable (although that is very un-APL like), but I'd rather have dictionaries than namespaces.

Erik the Outgolfer

@Adám well, contrary to APLX >_>

ngn

@Adám What's your definition of "dictionaries" vs "namespaces"?

Adám

@EriktheOutgolfer And APL*PLUS, and a whole host of now dead APLs.

@ngn K's.

Erik the Outgolfer

7:34 PM

@Adám not referring to its death

ngn

@Adám so immutable ("value semantics") and any type can act as key

Erik the Outgolfer

but APLX stayed behind using old technology, which eventually led to its death

Adám

@EriktheOutgolfer That, but also, MicroAPL's side project became so successful that the income from APLX didn't matter any more. The company which sold APLX is still very much alive: microapl.com

Erik the Outgolfer

the irony is that MicroAPL, the creator of APLX, does the job of migrating from old technologies to newer ones

> MicroAPL™ is the leading vendor of tools and services for migrating embedded, desktop, and mainframe software to new architectures.

Downgoat

10:30 PM

On TIO, What's the difference between "Dialog CLassic" and "Dialog Unicode"

IS it the encoding they take?

they both seem to have same hello world

Adám

@Downgoat Yes, basically, although they can load each other's files, Classic only allocates a single byte per character, and will throw an error if you try to import a character which is not in the 256-char set. Though they are not in the set, Classic will import ⍤⌸⍠⊆⍸⌺ as ⎕Uxxxx where xxxx is the hex code.

@Downgoat Also, Unicode supports scripting mode (separating STDIN and STDERR), while Classic mirrors STDIN in STDERR (shuffled with actual STDERR output).

@Downgoat Unicode can use any Unicode font, while Classic needs a special font with glyphs in the right locations.

@Downgoat Unicode supports any character entry method, while Classic needs its custom input method.

Downgoat

@Adám ah ok

Adám

@Downgoat Dyalog has customers with large databases containing non-ASCII characters. They are reluctant to migrate to Unicode because their database size will blow up.

Downgoat

so for the codegolf site: codegolf.vihan.org:4321, if an answer is tagged 'apl' would APL (Dialog Unicode) be the right onw to use?

Adám

@Downgoat Yes, I always use Unicode, but count my score as Classic. Only exception is when I need to address the actual bit representation or character set location of characters.

@Downgoat What about ngn/apl?

@Downgoat Also, it is Dyalog, not Dialog.

Downgoat

10:44 PM

@Adám not sure, are they different enough that I should add two seperate dyalog-apl and ngn-apl tags?

Adám

@Downgoat Up to you. Each has features missing from the other.

Downgoat

hm ok

Seems like dyalog is most popular here so I guess I'll make that the default

Adám

@Downgoat TIO calls them apl-dyalog (that's Unicode) and apl-ngn. Classic is apl-dyalog-classic.

@Downgoat Yes, certainly it is, and the most ISO conformant too.

@Downgoat Btw, we should totally have you revamp our homepage, imho.

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