Japanese Language - 2022-01-28

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1:13 AM

3

A: 〜たら by itself: 持っていってあげたら

～たら as a verb suffix has two basic functions: Expressing temporal antecedence, as basically a synonym for (possibly contraction from?) ～てから -- 「A[VERB]たらB」 means "A [VERB], then B". Expressing conditionality, similar to English "if" -- 「A[VERB]たらB」 means "if A [VERB], then B". You'll notice tha...

この What if

what if

where is what if?

oh

I c

hmm... if I were to write this sentence, I'd say "How about you pick some flowers and give them to her?"

I usually hear "what if" in situations when I want someone to consider another possibility, for instance:

A: "I'm going to go to the baseball game if it doesn't rain"
B: "What if it does?"
A: "Then I'll probably watch a movie I guess"

does that help?

@Chocolate What if = What + if

Yeah, what would happen if...

So I thought it was more like "You better not do.."

If you know how "if" works, then that's about it.

I disagree with that

it's not a super easy expression

1:23 AM

"What if it does?" -- This one is "What will you do if it does"

yeah, what will you do if it does rain

and the what if in the 赤ずきん's example,

What if you picked some flowers = What + if you picked....

What only turns it into a question

"What (will happen) if you bring flowers to your grandma"

So is this a recommendation?

I thought it was more like a warning, like "you shouldn't do that"

Maybe I was wrong

No, it's a hypothetical.

1:26 AM

It's definitely not a warning, but again, I don't really think that sentence is natural

In fact I can't really think of any way for this to express a warning

If you bring flowers to your granda, what will happen? = What will happen if you....

implying your grandma will be pleased?

not necessarily

No

it's just kind of getting the speaker to consider a hypothetical

1:28 AM

Ohh

Broadly speaking, "what" turns it into a question

If you do this, something will happen

If you do this, what will happen?

What will happen if you do this?

Note that, by using the present simple, it implies a future possibility.

Oh, so it's a direct translation of たら?

Hmm

たら can also be "雨が降ったら(どうするの)？"

One thing I know is that in english, what if always represents a hypothetical

Because of "if"

for instance, I think the following is natural in japanese:

十一時になったら、呼んでください

1:33 AM

But I don't think the たら in 赤ずきん's example represents a hypothetical

but this has to be translated as "at 10 (when it becomes 10), please call me"

Hm... I think it's still a hypothetical

we're taught that 持ったらどう？can be literally translated to "if you bring it, how is it?" , and the natural translation is "why don't you bring it" or "what if you bring it" or "how about you bring it"

おお

What if can be used for suggestions

おｋ

However,

Well

Here

dictionary.cambridge.org/us/grammar/british-grammar/…

I think the accepted answer should change "What if you picked" to "What if you pick"

The latter implies a real possbility

1:39 AM

I actually think both are fine lol

The former rather a hypothetical

If you picked, what would happen? != if you pick, what will happen?

I think that たら in that example expresses a non-generic condition.

There's an implied いいですね

I thought there was an implied どうですか

lol

Well, my parsing is that the wolf is making a request, not a question.

ah ok

The point is... "what if" can be used for suggestions, requests...

1:57 AM

日本語の「～たら？」は、勧誘・提案の意味がありますが、

「もし」を付けると、勧誘にならないですね

「もし、花を摘んで持って行ってあげたら？」って言うと、ダメです

"What will happen if...?" って言っちゃったら、勧誘にならないのと同じかな

あ、でも「花を摘んで持って行ってあげたらどう？」ならいいですね

これは、　japanese.stackexchange.com/q/93142/9831

9

Q: What does たら do at the end of a sentence?

時間があるなら、彼の画廊に寄ってみたら。 What meaning does たら have at the end of a sentence?

grammar conditionals ellipsis

か、

4

A: how can I say "what about...?" in Japanese?

You really have several choices depending on the exact meaning of the question. If the question is making a suggestion for the listener to respond with an answer, then ～（よ）うか ("Shall we ～?") as mentioned, or just ～は？ if the action has already been established. 日曜日にしようか？う～ん、日曜日はムリ。ほん...

duplicate かなと思ったんですけど、

close vote はゼロなので、

う～ん何か違うのかなと

私が見たときにはもう回答がついていたし・・

票も入ってたし、閉めづらかった

@Riolku そうですね

いつも、こういうのは、

2

A: Are 「〜のは欲しい」 and 「〜のは出来る」 valid alternatives to 「〜たい」and 「られる」?

No, 見るのはできる is not a valid alternative. However, you can say 見ることができる is, and it's an alternative form. A Dictionary of Basic Japanese Grammar, page 201 says this about the difference: Note that は here is incorrect. As for 欲しい, this is also wrong. The only similar construction would be using ほしい...

本を、スキャンしてるんですか？

2:18 AM

スキャンがあります

もっています

本当に好みな本です

I don't see how のはできる is wrong

I'm pretty sure that grammar just doesn't exist

also, できる is a ～は～が verb

見るのはできますが歩くのはできません.

Perhaps it's only idiomatic with こと

my understanding is that ことができる is like... a grammar

理路整然と説明するのはできると思ったが•••

I don't agree with your answer at all because I can find examples with のはできる

Why was the other answer downvoted...?

2:31 AM

@Nameless interesting

Not really.. it's の vs こと vs が vs は

@Chocolate what are your thoughts on this?

@Chocolate yes

Left...

は may marks contrast

Mark

2:59 AM

「理路整然と説明するのはできると思ったが」「見るのはできますが歩くのはできません」

学校の作文で書いたら直されるでしょうね。。

「食べれます」「見れます」って学校でしゃべるときに言っても、先生は直さないでしょうけど、

「食べれます」「見れます」って学校の作文などで書いたら、先生は直すでしょう。

「見るのはできます」「歩くのはできません」とか、カジュアルに話すときには行けそうですけど、

文法的に正しいかって言われると、

アカン気がします

「見ることはできます」「見ることができます」文脈によって使い分けますよね

@Nameless そうじするのは欲しい means "I want one to clean up"　←このせいではないかと・・

@Chocolate そうですか？

砕けた会話で、言ってる気がします

「英語を日本語に訳すのはできるけど、日本語を英語に直すんは無理やねんなー」とか

「スマホで写すんはできても、送るんは無理ちゃう？」とか

文法的には、おかしいと思いますけど・・

3:32 AM

so like, it sort of works, but it's very weird?

very weird かどうかはちょっと・・　we know it's grammatically incorrect, but still sometimes use it in very colloquial speech みたいな？

mm ok

I'll edit the answer

Oh?

just to mention that it could show up in casual conversatoin

I don't think you need to

3:36 AM

ah aight

what about the 欲しい version?

いや、正しい日本語じゃないからさ・・

「～のは欲しい」は、おかしいですね。

「そうじするのは欲しい」は、変です。

tyty

So your answer looks fine to me

ty!

Is it really ungrammatical to use の here?

3:48 AM

the nominalizers have differences, first

second, some expressions are just set to take one or the other

like for instance, この本を読んだことがある？

「Vのができる」は、「正しい日本語」とは言いづらい・・

I'm pretty sure you can't say この本を読んだのがある？

私の趣味は、Vることです。

not 私の趣味は、Vるのです。

「の」の使用は、いくつか制限がありましたよね

4:11 AM

Yeah

I will read more about that. My books don't cover this, so I'll to read in Japanese...

Have to*

4:24 AM

ここは、参考になるでしょうか

core6000.neocities.org/dojg/entries/111.html

って、

A Dictionary of Japanese Grammar ですけどね

一番下です

(が)出来る can do って書いてあるところです

no koto

どちらが使えるかが、表になっています

ここでも見られます　japbase.neocities.org/full_day.html#%E3%8A%A6%E3%81%AE(3)

↑ これって、両方、違法サイト（違法アップロード）ですかね？

4:53 AM

I cant recommend this series neough

A Dictionary of Basic Japanese Grammar

5:17 AM

I love that book

I started with that after I got my hiragana and katakana done

everything about that book is excellent, except maybe their treatment of the に particle, but that's a difficult particle anyway and they did their best

If you have a nearby library that has The Structure of the Japanese Language by Susumu Kuno, I strongly recommend that too

that's my most prized collection in my shelf right now haha

whats up with ni?

Nothing much, what's the matter with nu?

jk, but ni tends to be oversimplified or taught in difficult-to-understand ways

and you think the dictionary did a meh job of it?

It did a good job. But it did a GREAT job for all the other grammar points

ah lol

I'll have to check out The Structure of the Japanese Language

5:30 AM

the entry on ni didn't give me the "aha" moment that I was looking for

ah lol

に is hard

also I can agree with that lol

@Riolku this one doesn't teach you the basics. It assumes you know enough, and it has linguistic treatment of certain grammar points

yeah my friend mentioned that lol

but, it is really good at dissecting the nuance between expressions

hmmmm I wonder how I can get my hands on it

user image

5:33 AM

check in with your local library, or online bookshops

here's what my friend copied from a review

what do you think about it lol

If you're looking for quick and easy reads to pick up grammar constructions, this book is not for that. It really goes into detailed comparisons which may not be helpful in your day to day interactions

mm

I'll keep an eye out for it I think

right now im pretty happy with the dictionaries

if you live in Japan you will have enough conversational background to make comparisons with

but since I don't live in a Japanese speaking community, the best I have is to learn about the comparisons by reading about them

although they miss some archaic expressions

5:36 AM

so I guess the difference is between academic knowledge and practical knowledge

oh definitely

but in the absence of a practical environment, theory will have to suffice for me

thing is most of my interest in japanese is grammar

I have some practical experience but

I have no practical experience other than with the Japanese teachers some 10 years ago

~~anime is practical experience~~

how do you cross out stuff :(

5:38 AM

and some sporadic conversations during my 1 week vacation in toyko a couple years ago

hm I'm not sure if there's strikethrough markdown script here

:(

6:08 AM

<s>abcde</s>

だめですね

̶a̶b̶c̶d̶e̶

?

6:27 AM

ええどうやって

<s>こう？</s>

ええええええ

6:42 AM

<del>abc</del>

あかん

よそから持ってきました。。。

7:33 AM

how did you do the strikethrough?

copied from elsewhere?

7:47 AM

Im kinda surprised how little I see counters tbch

like i was like omg how will I live i need to learn all these counters

but they dont even come.up that much

tbf they arent even that common in english

9 hours later…

5:13 PM

@Flaw はい... 😛

Wow people actually chatting in chat. It's been a while.

@Riolku 何個くらい？

助数詞って、１０個くらい知ってれば日常生活では何とかなりそうな気もしますが・・

@goldbrick ほんまですねｗ

ええと

一個、一本、一つ、一匹、一頭、一年、一回、一日、一分、一秒、一枚、一課、一ページ

いっぱいありますねｗｗ

あ一冊、一羽

一台

5:27 PM

一人、

一階

一階忘れた

一人もちろんしっている

一月

一時

いっぱいあります

言われてみれば・・

一歳

一年

あ、あった

一晩

一泊

Alright, have fun kids. It's time for me to go to bed (and fiddle with my phone).　ぐっない！

5:30 PM

一晩を知っている

じゃあねgoldbrick

まだスマホいじるんやｗ

知らない助数詞を見たらたいていアンキデッキに入れる

一本でもにんじん、二足でもサンダル、三そうでもヨット、って歌が

四粒でもごま塩、５(？)でもロケット、６羽でも七面鳥、

なんとかかんとか・・

user image

これはどうやって覚えたらいいですか

"a murder of crows" is a common fun fact

あやっぱりｗ

5:38 PM

the rest of these names are news to me and relatively useless

like I'd just say "look at that group of chickens"

そうなんだ！

よっしゃ～

some of these animal group names are more common than others, for instance, "a flock of sheep" is well-known, but is about as common as "a group of sheep"

and "a pack of wolves" is probably more common than "a group of wolves"

羊の群れ。狼の群れ。カラスの群れ。鳥の群れ。全部一緒

user image

ww

oh yeah "a school of fish" is also another common one

wait is it actually "herd of sheep"

fuck

japanese.stackexchange.com/questions/93154/… is this question hard, or just forgotten lol

and also, is it considered bad practice to bump it somehow (like, I could bump it by modifying it a little)

6:42 PM

Just too much work

No

6:58 PM

hm, I think I'll email my teacher and see if I can get something

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Jan '2228

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