Japanese Language

5:04 AM

@Earthliŋ hot network questions are not blocked by adblock by default, and I definitely enjoy browsing them every now and then

choco

8:23 AM

suggested edit めっちゃある

でもこれ・・・

1

Q: Meaning of 自慢の目利き

Could you please tell me how should I understand and translate 自慢の目利き in the following sentence. この季節は、町内の市場は休みがないため、下苧坪さん(he's a 魚の仲買人- fish dealer) は、毎朝漁港に出かけ、その自慢の目利きで、新鮮な海の幸を仕入れる。 Source: http://www.fnn-news.com/localtime/iwate/detail.html?id=FNNL00011785 Many thanks in advance for your re...

リンク切れてるよね・・

ニュースだからしょうがない

あっ

こんなものが・・・

forum.wordreference.com/threads/…

Flaw

8:44 AM

rhyaeris is on a editing rampage haha

broccoli forest

I earned so many review points ;)

choco

@broccoliforest え、なにそれ

点数はいるの？

broccoli forest

@choco 期間過ぎると消す日本のニュースサイトがおかしいんですよねほんとは…

choco

たいていなくなっちゃうよね～

困るわ～

broccoli forest

@choco japanese.stackexchange.com/review/suggested-edits/stats

たまるとバッジになりますよ^^

choco

8:49 AM

へえ！ｗｗ

多幸なスタート、はおかしいねえ・・・

小難なスタート、もおかしいねえ・・・

broccoli forest

@choco なんか薬打ってそうですよねw

choco

無難なスタート、はちょっと意味が違うような・・・

broccoli forest

素直にやれば「順調なスタート」ですよね

choco

あ、それいいかんじ

もしくはやっぱりこれですね

I would say [幸先]{さいさき}がいいスタート, [幸先]{さいさき}のいいスタート or [幸先良]{さいさきよ}いスタート. — marasai 13 hours ago

broccoli forest

そうでしょうね

品詞が若干惜しいですけど、意味的には完璧だと思います

choco

8:53 AM

あ～たしかに、品詞は変わっちゃいますね

あっ！

また解答取り消してる

12

Q: Change in self-address for emphasis or to express frustration or dissatisfaction

Building on from this comment, It is possible that in English, a mother may opt to refer to herself in the third person: using "Your mother" instead of "I" to create emphasis. It is observed from the comment that お母さん is a common way for mothers to refer to themselves regardless of the fact th...

word-choice first-person-pronouns

UVしたのに！

短気かっ

broccoli forest

でもこの質問って結構opinion-based寄りかなーって気がします

こういうので一人称変えたりしますか？

l'électeur

9:38 AM

@choco 「また」て・・　フツー消すやろ、５時間で一票やったら。江戸時代ちゃうねんで？こっちは休日料金かかってんねん！（て、ここ突っ込むなよ。）あれやっぱこいさんやったん‌や。性格は悪なってるけど、母国語能力は落ちてへんみたいやな。ほな！

kuchitsu

9:48 AM

What is a good place for asking questions about the nuances of Japanese culture? I was wondering about their curious system of magazine publishing where the issue isn't quite tied to its month. For example, COMIC華漫 2011年 03月号 apparently came out in January 2011, kinda interesting huh? I wonder if there is some good explanation of this system that seems very confusing at first.

Flaw

you could leave your question in chat here and hope someone picks it up

you can try HiNative

or yahoo answers

kuchitsu

hinative seems interesting, I will try it, thanks

oals

11:21 AM

@Flaw I think s/he's ignoring the

Editing a post also bumps the question to the top of the homepage. Please be mindful of this and make your edits count, so that the new attention is brought to something substantial.

rule though

3

(Quote from japanese.stackexchange.com/help/privileges/edit )

That rule is pretty well hidden.

broccoli forest

11:46 AM

@kuchitsu matome.naver.jp/odai/2138501432394080901

> 1）週刊誌　：　発売日から15日先までの月日
> 2）旬刊誌・遠週刊誌・月2回刊誌　：　発売日から1ヵ月先までの月日（月・旬）
> 3）月刊誌・隔月刊誌　：　発売日から40日先までの月号
> 4）季刊誌　：　発行期間を示す季節（その季節を表す文字）
> 5）増刊号　：　発売日から〈40日先まで〉の月/日号、もしくは月号。ただし、月刊誌・隔月刊誌・季刊誌の増刊は本誌に準じる

idioms is ことわざ, set-phrases is 成句. Are they intended?

at least I think "idioms" should be 慣用句

broccoli forest

12:06 PM

what's the difference between colloquial-language and spoken-language?

kuchitsu

Thanks for the link! I'll see if I can read it all

broccoli forest

12:33 PM

japanese.stackexchange.com/tags/colours/synonyms

apparently it needs a synonym "colors"

perspective and giving-and-receiving...

Flaw

1:18 PM

@oals they're not bad edits so I decided to approve the majority of them

anyway even if it bumps to the top, that's for the "active" list. The new questions can still be found under the "newest" list

so I don't think it's a problem that the post moves up

@rhyaeris Hi!

rhyaeris

hello!

Flaw

farming the editing badges I see

rhyaeris

haha, I guess so

broccoli forest

the only problem is I used up all review counts today

rhyaeris

broccoli forest seems to have gotten a kick out of it

Flaw

1:20 PM

there's a limit to review counts?

rhyaeris

probably tied to rep

broccoli forest

20 times per 12h or 24h as I guess

I've never run into such a situation :)

Flaw

we could just leave them in the queue for you tomorrow

broccoli forest

:D

Flaw

afterall they're not urgent edits

rhyaeris

1:22 PM

well, glad my edit spamming was of use to somebody. :)

Flaw

most of the edits deal with removing salutations and thanks at the beginning/end of the post

rhyaeris

and I think colloquial language need not be spoken, if you're asking about the difference

colloquial language can be used in writing supermarket lists, for example

@Flaw yeah, I kinda just searched "thanks in advance" and worked my way through the whole list

Flaw

I think there's a meta post somewhere about not using greetings and thanks in a post

rhyaeris

@broccoli forest dictionary.reference.com/browse/colloquial "familiar" / "ordinary" would be the word to describe "colloquial", I think.

@Flaw yeah, I made that mistake until I read that post

and apparently there's a cultural reason for it in the case of japanese.se

broccoli forest

@rhyaeris hmm... how do you think "colloquial" and "spoken" differ?

Flaw

1:28 PM

It doesn't bother me if people do or don't use greetings/thanks in a post. I tend to leave it there unless there's some other edits to make.

broccoli forest

I mean, is there any example "colloquial" but not "spoken", for instance?

Flaw

you can write down colloquialisms

rhyaeris

@broccoli forest in that "colloquial" can be "written" as well

shopping lists

Flaw

then they would be written as opposed to being spoken

rhyaeris

a note to your mum

etc

"spoken" language can be formal too, actually

broccoli forest

1:30 PM

so, "spoken" is more like pronunciation question?

rhyaeris

not exactly, "spoken" just means words you normally speak with

there are words that are normally only written, like "lol"

there are words that are normally only spoken, too

a "spoken" question can be asking about pauses in sentences, or pronunciation like you said

or it can be about words you just normally don't write down

interjections are one group of words I can think of that are normally spoken

broccoli forest

ok... I think I'm getting it slowly

colloquial-language was originally translated as 口語

and spoken-language is 話し言葉

rhyaeris

to me, I think we are dealing with two matters:
1. the continuum of <---informal formal--->
2. the difference between spoken / written
I think "colloquial" belongs in number 1, between informal and formal

Flaw

should colloquial be 俗語 ?

broccoli forest

yes, and the problem is both 口語 and 話し言葉 vaguely refer to #1

俗語 is "slang"

or "vulgar language"

rhyaeris

1:41 PM

@oals sorry for the mess! :o
please do give a shout out to me if I make bad edits.

broccoli forest

what's worse is that 口語 has another meaning: "modern language"

opposed to 文語 "classical language"

I'm thinking about changing colloquial-language to 話し言葉, and spoken-language to 口頭語（or -表現）

rhyaeris

http://jisho.org/word/%E4%BF%97%E8%AA%9E
俗語 does mean slang I guess, but it can also mean colloquial

broccoli forest

a word like gonna is a slang?

rhyaeris

yes, it's slang

dictionary.reference.com/browse/gonna?s=t

Actually, 口語 seems to imply colloquialism the most..

broccoli forest

@rhyaeris thanks, then "slang" is a broader notion

rhyaeris

1:53 PM

http://ejje.weblio.jp/content/informal
this may help

broccoli forest

Japanese 俗語 mostly stands for another word used instead of a more formal word

maybe 口語表現 is okay

rhyaeris

くだけた砕けた means informal too - this can be used instead of 口語
http://ejje.weblio.jp/content/informal

Flaw

@Ash Hi!

Ash

Hallo!

broccoli forest

kotobank.jp/word/%E8%A9%B1%E3%81%97%E8%A8%80%E8%91%89-603497

> ①音声を媒介とする言葉。話し，聞く言葉。文として整わない表現が多いが，普通，話し手と聞き手が相対しているので，身振り・表情などが理解を助ける。音声言語。
> ②話す時にのみ主にして用いる言葉。口語。口頭語。 ↔ 書き言葉

oals

1:59 PM

@rhyaeris Eh, I got the privileges to even view suggested edits just a week ago. My opinion doesn't have much weight here.

rhyaeris

@oals I was thinking editing is kind of the only way for me to get the mortarboard badge at this stage of learning

though, I've pretty much given up on it now
life isn't all about editing

oals

I wouldn't consider 'gonna' slang but closer to eye dialect.

An attempt to spell a word the way it's pronounced.

Dan Hulme

I dunno

I'd class it with "innit", which isn't just eye-dialect for a contraction, but is a word with its own distinct grammar now.

e.g. I hear Londoners say "I'm fed up of this, innit", where "isn't it" wouldn't make sense at all

Flaw

2:15 PM

would ね be analogous to innit ?

Dan Hulme

that's exactly how ね was first explained to me

rhyaeris

that's how I learned it too, as "right" or "isn't it"
http://www.punipunijapan.com/japanese-particles-yo-ne/

broccoli forest

2:45 PM

btw

14

Q: Looking for meaning of 入道雲

I'm currently reading a Japanese book on clouds, and am hoping someone can shed some light on the exact meaning of a cloud type called 入道雲。The English translation would be Cumulonimbus, but I'm hoping to get a breakdown on if there is particular meaning in the word 入道雲. 積乱雲 is listed as an alte...

meaning

I was taught that 入道雲 is called thunderhead in English. Isn't it in use? — broccoli forest 6 hours ago

Ash

@broccoliforest Cumulonimbus is the word I know/was taught ages ago in geography class. I've never heard thunderhead myself but that doesn't mean it isn't in use... curious what other people will say

Dan Hulme

4:18 PM

I've heard "thundercloud", but "thunderhead" is a bit obscure these days

I'd regard "thundercloud" as just the lay equivalent of "cumulonimbus", while "thunderhead" is maybe literary

Anonymous

11:12 PM

@broccoliforest This looks like a job for . . . corpus evidence! corpus.byu.edu/coca/?c=coca&q=45127793

Anonymous

Cumulonimbus is a technical word, but they do teach it to children, so some may remember the word as adults, though I wouldn't put money on people being able to remember what kind of cloud it refers to.

Anonymous

That said, I'm not sure everyone would know what a thunderhead is, either.

Anonymous

@oals Eye dialect is definitely the right term to describe the spelling gonna. Most of the time, when people say gonna, they write going to.

Anonymous

That said, it's true that the to-contracted form is distinct grammatically (for most speakers).

Anonymous

Innit is an invariant tag.

Anonymous

11:18 PM

> I'm going to the store.

Anonymous

> *I'm gonna the store.

Anonymous

Similarly:

Anonymous

> Teddy is the man I want to win the election.

Anonymous

> *Teddy is the man I wanna win the election.

Anonymous

(A minority of speakers accept the latter example, though.)

Anonymous

11:20 PM

There are also dialects where isn't it is an invariant tag, by the way.

Anonymous

@rhyaeris 口語 and 文語 originally referred to spoken and written language, and they still have this literal meaning, but in the long period leading up to the 言文一致, people used a form based on Early Middle Japanese as the literary language they wrote down, and spoke the form of the language that was modern at the time. So there came to be this association between 口語 and what people spoke now, and between 文語 and Classical Japanese (the written language based on EMJ).

Anonymous

That worked fairly well as long as people spoke 口語 and wrote 文語, because the spoken–written distinction aligned well with the modern–classical distinction.

Anonymous

But after 言文一致, people started writing 口語 down, in other words writing the same language they spoke, so the terms became somewhat confused.

Anonymous

So some linguists use the terms 話し言葉 and 書き言葉 instead to refer to language which is spoken and written respectively.

Anonymous

Unfortunately this isn't universal, and people still often conflate the classical language with written language, and conflate the modern language with spoken language.

Anonymous

11:31 PM

Sometimes the term 'colloquial' is used in English to refer to the modern language, as opposed to 'literary' referring to Classical Japanese.

Anonymous

So there's ambiguity in both the English and Japanese terms for these things.

Anonymous

I think that most non-linguists tend to understand 'colloquial' the same way we use it to describe English speech, that is, language that you'd use in informal conversation which may or may not be considered 'standard'.

Anonymous

Here's an example of 話し言葉・書き言葉 used to refer to spoken and written 口語: books.google.co.jp/books?id=l-C4H2sBJlEC&hl=ja&pg=PA326

kuchitsu

A quick question. Is it 佳 in the top left? - i.imgur.com/MCswDUT.png It looks a bit different, is it an acceptable way to write it?

Anonymous

What looks different about it?

kuchitsu

11:40 PM

there is no space between two 土 on the picture

on my PC at least it has a space between them

Anonymous

Ah, there's no space in the 佳 in chat for me :-)

Anonymous

But I'm sure if I zoom in to a large enough resolution, a space would appear. Yep!

kuchitsu

yeah in the chat i don't really see it either

Anonymous

At lower resolutions, I think a lot of stuff gets squished together.

kuchitsu

btw I wonder if japanese people normally use larger resolutions than e.g. europeans\americans

some kanji are so small and difficult to make out

dunno maybe it comes with experience

Anonymous

11:44 PM

I think that the more experience you get reading Japanese, the easier it is to read small or blobby or unclear kanji.

kuchitsu

yeah

Anonymous

So native speakers, who usually have the most experience reading and the most language experience to draw on, are usually good at reading tiny kanji as long as they have enough context.

Anonymous

I'm just a learner, but I've been reading for a long time and it's been getting easier for me :-)

kuchitsu

Yeah, experience is like the most important thing in learning languages I guess. So I set my ipod to japanese, installed japanese firefox, etc so that I have to deal with the language as frequently as possible.

feels like it all really helps in the long run

Anonymous

11:59 PM

@choco We have another chocolate! :-) japanese.stackexchange.com/q/31133/1478

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