Japanese Language

Oh, I left it rerun from the start and this 2nd time I heard the sh sound before "itsune"! (still heard it as a funny "n", though :) This sh sound is very reduced, just a little hint of it.

ogicu8abruok

sounded like ishtsurei to me

Damkerng T.

Hmm... I tried it once again and I couldn't hear sh this time. :(

@ogicu8abruok But I think I understand what you heard.

Listen to it carefully, I think I can understand it as "i[s]tsu[n]ee" too. (It's more like [s] than [ʃ] to me.)

Anonymous

2:59 AM

@ogicu8abruok I guess that would be metathesis? The /s/ and /i/ switching places?

Anonymous

I'm not sure what to make of that…

Damkerng T.

I just checked its spectrogram, and it's very interesting. :)

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. The Japanese "sh" is [ɕ]

Damkerng T.

Yes, but I'm not sure which ogicu8abruok's "sh" is, I assume it's an English one.

I can hear neither [ʃ] nor [ɕ] in that work.

I think it's [itsuree].

But it gives me some clues about Japanese /ts/ sound.

The fricative noise exists both before and after what is supposed to be the "t" in the [ts] sound in that word.

I think 1/3 of the noise comes before the [t], and 2/3 comes after.

Austin French

3:15 AM

Does this person talk fast, like somewhat abnormally so...?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sqa6Jve-A4k

非回答者

no, very normal.

Austin French

Hmmm, OK! Not that she sounded like the Japanese Busta Rhymes or anything, just seemed rushed / quick to me.

I will take better trained ears with ease though!

Compared to this announcer for example news.tbs.co.jp/newseye/tbs_newseye2235676.html

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Whenever anyone says "sh" talking about Japanese, I assume they're talking about the Japanese "sh" sound, not the English one

Anonymous

But I don't know--I'll wait for someone else to transcribe that section :-)

Anonymous

Or someone familiar with the pronunciation he says he's heard a lot of times

Anonymous

3:25 AM

@DamkerngT. Say, did you turn that word into a WAV file? If so, can you share it here?

Damkerng T.

Yes, I can do that. Just a minute.

Anonymous

That would make it easier for other people to comment if they want to

Damkerng T.

dropbox.com/s/qmq3hn5sg22gggj/%28sh%29itsuree.wav

Anonymous

Thank you!

Damkerng T.

いえいえ

Yang Muye

4:18 AM

> 外は雨が降っていますか

> 外では雨が降っていますか

> 日本は毎日雨が降っています

> 日本では毎日雨が降っています

I think 外は is much more neutral than 外では.

I think it's hard to explain why particles like に and で are often dropped before は

And it's hard to explain why で can sometimes be inserted before は and も, too.

> 今は違う

> 今では違う

The more I learn, the more I'm against the idea that は is converted from がは.

I think では, には, は are often different from で, に and が.

Yang Muye

4:36 AM

> この本は英語で書いた

> この本は英語で書かれた

Some people tell me この本は英語で書いた can only be used when the actor of 書く is the speaker himself.

この本は英語で書かれた can only be used when the actor of 書く is not the speaker.

But I think 英語で書いた本 can have the same meaning as 英語で書かれた本.

ssb

What about この本は英語で書いてある

Yang Muye

Anyone, I think.

When the verb phrase contains meaning like be supposed to, する is usually used instead される. e.g.

> 「感」は「かん」と読む

So 私は「ヤン」という might mean "I am/my name supposed to be called Yang".

But, いう can be converted to 申す or おっしゃる

This is wired because if we follow the same explanation, 私は「ヤン」と申す will mean "everyone should respectfully call me Yang.”

Obviously, という here becomes something like である.

@ssb ている/てある might be more objective. For example, この本はうまく書けている, the book can be written by me or other people.

But I don't know if この本はうまく書かれている can be used when the book is written by me.

～の本では～と論じている, とは is definitely not written by me.

では is usually the actor of 論じる.

Yang Muye

4:51 AM

難しいな

Darius Jahandarie

5:19 AM

@AustinFrench I'd say the announcer is actually talking faster than the girl.

Tim

9:05 AM

@Choko: Thank you for your comment earlier today. That was very helpful, especially all those examples.

Choko

9:34 AM

@Tim いあいあ

@YangMuye よく見たらtsuzukiの左手が、右手の影と握手してる

Andrew Grimm

10:31 AM

I recently heard the joke "Who does Polyphemus hate more than Odysseus? Nobody."

I wonder whether Odysseus' use of "Nobody" as his name would work if the Odyssey was translated into Japanese.

Choko

10:53 AM

@AndrewGrimm へへ・・・わかんないｗｗ

Anonymous

5:37 PM

@AndrewGrimm Well, he actually called himself Οὖτις. Nobody is just a translation :-)

Anonymous

And it isn't always translated that way.

Anonymous

> 『キュクロープスよ、汝問ふ譽れのわが名いざ告げむ、
> 然らば汝約に因り、われに贈與を忘れざれ。
> 「誰も無し」とぞ我れ名のる、われの父母また一切の、
> 友悉く殘りなく「誰も無し。」とぞわが名曰ふ。』
> しか陳ずれば暴戻の心を吐きて彼は曰ふ、
> 『他の從者らを喰ひ盡し、我は汝を、「誰も無し」、
> 最後にとりて啖ふべし、これこそ我の贈與なれ。』
>
> 　Cyclops! thou hast my noble name enquired,
> Which I will tell thee. Give me, in return,
> The promised boon, some hospitable pledge.
> My name is Outis, Outis I am call’d
> At home, abroad; wherever I am known.
> 　So I; to whom he, savage, thus replied.
> Outis, when I have eaten all his friends,
> Shall be my last regale. Be that thy boon.

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