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02:00 - 23:0023:00 - 00:00

2:46 AM
@Kaji @snailboat I learned hiragana from this chart!
Anonymous
Yay!
I have another one for katakana. Going to learn that soon. :D
Anonymous
My friend may be joining us on Japanese.SE once her classes start :-)
Yay!
I found two more phrases in the app:
> 利用規約及びプライバシーポリシー
利用する
Google Translate says they mean:
> Privacy Policy and Terms of Use
Use
Anonymous
At this point, it might be good to try to recognize 1. katakana 2. する :-)
Anonymous
2:55 AM
Out of the things you quoted
I agree. But the texts appear on buttons and I'm sure not which one I should click. :)
(I was afraid that clicking a wrong button could cost me some money. :)
Anonymous
Oh!
I guess this is a good example for する. :D
Oh, 利 is pronounced り! I think it's くんよみ。
Ah! I get it! ライバシーポリシー reads "privacy policy"!
Anonymous
り is its おんよみ
Anonymous
@DamkerngT. Yes, with the initial プ before it :-)
Anonymous
3:08 AM
ぷらいばしーぽりしー
Eh? I might mix up the two (くんよみ and おんよみ).
Anonymous
There it is in hiragana
はーい! ありがとう!
Anonymous
おん readings are 'sound' readings from Chinese
Anonymous
You'll note that it's quite similar to Chinese li (falling tone)
3:09 AM
Ahh... so it's pronounced ri not because it has り inside.
Anonymous
No, that points the arrow of causality the wrong way :-)
Anonymous
You see, hiragana り is simplified from 利! :-)
Oh!
Hah!
Anonymous
Katakana リ too, which looks very similar as I'm sure you'll see
Anonymous
3:12 AM
See, way back when, there were a couple ways to write Japanese
Anonymous
One was to more or less write it like it was Classical Chinese
Anonymous
Another way, though, used the kanji for their sounds only
Looks like they both won.
Anonymous
And so they took the kanji 利, with its sound り from Chinese, and used it to represent the sound, ignoring the meaning!
Anonymous
So り and リ were born
3:13 AM
Ahh
Anonymous
@DamkerngT. Contact with Chinese had a profound effect on Japanese, including the writing systems as they evolved
Anonymous
@DamkerngT. Japanese today has many words borrowed from Chinese, and so the way the morphemes are put together reflect the way they were combined in Chinese
Anonymous
These, of course, use おんよみ in Japanese
Anonymous
They are called 漢語(かんご)
Anonymous
Japan has made lots of its own かんご, but they're mostly put together the same way they would be in Chinese
Anonymous
Anonymous
Here you can see 利用 = りよう = lì​yòng
Anonymous
You'll come to know which are おん and which are くん
I didn't know this word (use) in Chinese, so I couldn't guess it right.
Anonymous
For now, that's rather secondary information
Anonymous
3:19 AM
You need to learn some basic words and sentence patterns and such.
Anonymous
Generally, since おん readings come from Chinese, and each character in Chinese represents a single syllable, the same is (almost) true in Japanese
Anonymous
The difference is that Japanese has very few possible syllable CODAS, so the readings often ended up with extra vowels after them
Anonymous
So おん readings are pretty much all either one or two morae long
And the sound in Japanese is close to the one for the same character in Chinese, I think.
Anonymous
3:23 AM
And the second mora either has /u/ or /i/ if it's an epenthetic vowel, or /N/
Anonymous
おん readings often have long vowels of various sorts
Anonymous
So pretty much every おん reading is either one mora, or if it's two morae, the second one is (1) part of a long vowel, (2) a consonant plus epenthetic /u/ or /i/, (3) nasal /N/
Anonymous
A lot of them have sounds that are quite rare in native Japanese words.
Anonymous
You see, pre-Old Japanese didn't allow two vowels in a row
Anonymous
3:26 AM
It was always CVCVCVCV, pretty much.
Anonymous
These days there are some native words with long vowels for various reasons, most commonly the loss of a consonant over time
Anonymous
But native words still generally speaking have that sort of CVCVCV sound to them
Anonymous
Words like たてまつる or こころみる
Anonymous
Or さしあげる or おこのみやき
Anonymous
3:28 AM
So when you hear とうきょう with its two long vowels and a glide, you think "Oh, that sounds like おん readings, two long syllables taken from Chinese morphemes"
Anonymous
When you hear いつのまに or さかのぼる, you think "Oh, CVCVCVCV, these are more likely native Japanese words"
Hmm... Is it おん reading?
Anonymous
Besides which, most Japanese verbs are native
Anonymous
@DamkerngT. とうきょう is made of two Sino-Japanese morphemes which correspond to おん readings of kanji
Anonymous
東京(とうきょう)
3:30 AM
Ahh
Anonymous
So when we compare our examples from the other day
Anonymous
殺人(さつじん) "murder"
Anonymous
人殺し = ひとごろし
Anonymous
Same kanji for both words, but one is from Sino-Japanese, the other using native words
Anonymous
Can you see which is which? There are several hints.
3:32 AM
Ahh... I think I get the idea.
Anonymous
Yay
殺人(さつじん) is onyomi!
Anonymous
Yes, that's right
Anonymous
Can you see how to split up the word between the two kanji?
Anonymous
3:34 AM
Each おん reading can only be one or two morae long.
Ah, I see.
さつ-じん
Oh, actually it's quite straightforward! 殺人 = kill man!
Anonymous
さつ now corresponds to shā​ in Mandarin, but it was srɛt in Middle Chinese, and modern Japanese doesn't allow that syllable final /t/, so it got a /u/ added to the end
Anonymous
Yes!
Anonymous
There are several ways that かんご can be put together. In other words, ways that おんよみ can be put together
Anonymous
One of them is verb-object, like in this compound.
Anonymous
3:38 AM
Of course, in Japanese 殺人 is a single word and neither half is a "verb", but it contains a verbal morpheme and an object morpheme
Anonymous
And you can use this to understand it
Anonymous
If you wanted to understand it by turning it into Japanese, you would switch them around (to reflect Japanese word order rather than Chinese) and replace the おん readings with くん readings
Anonymous
So! 殺人(さつじん)  →  人を殺すこと  (ひと を ころす こと)
Anonymous
And if you look up 殺人 in a Japanese monolingual dictionary
Anonymous
Odds are good that'll be the exact definition: 人を殺すこと。
3:40 AM
A-ha!
(Still not sure why we need すこと though.)
Anonymous
So, in Japanese, 殺人 is a single word.
Anonymous
And it's a noun. It represents murder, killing a person
Anonymous
We swapped the readings, but we also added を
Anonymous
Our new version is not a word, but a phrase
Anonymous
And 殺す is a verb
Anonymous
3:45 AM
We didn't "add す". ころす is the reading that replaced さつ
Anonymous
ころす is the verb "kill"
Anonymous
Thing is, when you wrote ころす with kanji, the kanji can only "cover up" the first two kana :-)
Anonymous
ころす becomes 殺す
Anonymous
That's because the final kana changes when you conjugate the verb: 殺す koros-u 殺さない koros-anai
Anonymous
So we have to write that part in kana.
3:47 AM
Oh! This is very profound!
Anonymous
And we had to add を because we have a phrase now, and ひと is the direct object of the verb.
Anonymous
[ ひとを ころす ] こと
Anonymous
At the end, we have a noun-like thingy, which we can call a "nominalizer"
Anonymous
It turns the entire phrase into a noun, basically.
Anonymous
Remember our original word was a noun, "murder", not a verb phrase
3:48 AM
I can see it now!
Anonymous
So to express the same thing with a phrase, we need to turn the whole thing into a noun.
Anonymous
Japanese has a lot of vocabulary from Chinese. But Japanese speakers also understand how the morphemes from Chinese fit together, and they can understand new combinations they haven't seen before
Anonymous
And once you learn a bit of vocabulary, you'll naturally start to see patterns and be able to make reasonable guesses too :-)
Does Japanese use all of most common Chinese characters?
@snailboat Yay!
Anonymous
@DamkerngT. It uses a lot of kanji that are common hanzi in Chinese
Anonymous
3:55 AM
But they don't have the same frequency distribution
Anonymous
And Simplified Chinese, Traditional Chinese, and Japanese have different forms for (what are historically) the same characters
Anonymous
For example, in Simplified Chinese, instead of 殺人 you would write 杀人
Anonymous
In Traditional Chinese, it looks the same as in Japanese.
I guess that Japanese uses the traditional ones.
nods
Anonymous
Not exactly. Japanese has its own simplifications.
3:57 AM
Oh!
Anonymous
Traditional Chinese uses 鐵 for tiě, but in Japanese it's 鉄(てつ)
Anonymous
In Simplified Chinese, you find 紩
Oh! This is confusing!
Anonymous
Japanese kanji have their own identity
Anonymous
In fact, the Japanese invented some of their own kanji, like 辻
4:00 AM
Oh! Neat! :-)
Anonymous
And kanji are used rather differently in some cases, including some characters that are very common in Chinese
Anonymous
Do you know Chinese 的?
No. :(
Anonymous
It's a very common function word, which can be used something like English 's
Anonymous
Or like Japanese の
4:03 AM
Oh, it's that de.
Anonymous
But in Japanese, ~的(てき) is a suffix meaning um, what's the best way to put it? EDICT has "-like" as a gloss
Anonymous
It's kind of like English -ic(al)
Anonymous
Like:
物理   (ぶつり)    physics
物理的 (ぶつりてき)  physical
Anonymous
At any rate, it's really quite different from Chinese 的, and less common, at that :-) (But not uncommon)
4:08 AM
Is it the same one used in 帰ってきたウルトラマン?
Anonymous
No, that string of sounds crosses word boundaries
Anonymous
かえって きた
Oh! :D
I just thought that I saw it somewhere before. :D
Anonymous
You did see those sounds! But not the same morpheme :-)
Anonymous
Did you copy + paste that?
4:11 AM
Yes. I searched for きた ultraman and browsed through images. :-)
Anonymous
Ahh, good :-) I was going to say: When typing Japanese, be careful converting to kanji if you aren't sure they're the right kanji. It's better to use kana than to use the wrong kanji.
Anonymous
Blindly converting to kanji can get you in lots of trouble :-)
Anonymous
Unless you do it as a joke :-)
へへ
Anonymous
Here's an example. You know the word はい, of course!
4:12 AM
はい!
Anonymous
Well, はい is also a Sino-Japanese word meaning "lung"
あああ!
Anonymous
肺!
Anonymous
"Lung!" ;-)
Anonymous
灰! "Ash!"
4:13 AM
LOL
Anonymous
That's another word which would be はい in kana.
Anonymous
Of course, no one would ever mix up your はい! and think you meant "Lung!" ;-)
Anonymous
But if you write 肺!, well, it's understandable but very silly :-)
Potentially good for causing a good laugh. :)
Anonymous
Oh, talking about Japanese is fun!
Anonymous
4:19 AM
I have some more studying to do tonight :-)
廃!
@snailboat Thank you very much! I learned a lot of good things!
@Kaji Lung!
Anonymous
Oh, too bad Ash wasn't in here when I said 灰! :-)
4:21 AM
Think one of my favorite stories of fun with kanji (well, technically hanzi) involves making a coherent sentence out of 子子子子子子子子子子子子.
Wait, no, turns out that's a Japanese story after all!
also known as was an early Heian period scholar and poet. Life Takamura is a descendant of Ono no Imoko who served as Kenzuishi, and his father was Ono no Minemori. He is the grandfather of Ono no Michikaze, one of the . In 834 he was appointed to Kintōshi, but in 838 after a quarrel with the envoy, Fujiwara no Tsunetsugu, he gave up his professional duties pretending to be ill, and attracted the ire of retired Emperor Saga, who sent him to Oki Province. Within two years he regained the graces of the court and returned to the capital where he was promoted to Sangi. Takamura is the sub...
neko no ko no koneko, shishi no ko no kojishi
Anonymous
@DamkerngT. 肺 is "lung" and 灰 is "ash" but 廃 is a bound morpheme and isn't usually a meaningful word on its own
It has the meaning of "abolish", and is usually prepended to a kanji indicating some sort of organization (部、社, etc.)
あはは
Anonymous
It appears in relatively common words like 廃止 and 廃棄, but you don't really need to learn these yet
Anonymous
You can prioritize more common words :-)
4:25 AM
Oh, Takamura's wit turned out to be a good thing.
Classical Japanese is a lot of fun, especially if you get into the stories behind the authors
Anonymous
5:25 AM
Ah, learning Japanese is fun :-)
Anonymous
5:41 AM
Hey, the entire section on ~ている here is online at Google Books: books.google.com/books?id=0eprLex8sr0C&pg=PA82&lpg=PA82
Anonymous
I have both of those books, and I keep being surprised by how useful they are! :-)
Anonymous
I'm going through Sugita's dissertation and wanted to cross-reference the Japanese terminology
Anonymous
>  状態動詞 X
>  継続動詞 ~ている 進行中       習慣 経験
>  瞬間動詞 ~ている      結果残存 習慣 経験
6:05 AM
@snailboat: Am I failing at the moderator UI, or is it just my memory failing in my old age. I thought we actually did have a button somewhere for turning a comment into an answer.
Anonymous
@jkerian I'm afraid not. It only works the other direction.
ahh... senility setting in. Oh well, at least I get to be grumpy old man now
Someone does seem to live up to his name, and makes quite a habit of that
This most recent example question actually fails my personal bar for "not a pure translation question"... so the amount of work involved is higher than simply copying the answer. :/
I do occasionally wonder if the other names at the top of this acknowledgement were his mentioned 'colleagues', or other people who added their names to the list without looking at what it said
Anonymous
6:21 AM
Ha
Anonymous
6:34 AM
@Anthony Can I assume your ひゃ is a typo? :-)
7:06 AM
Please do.
7:55 AM
@Kaji At least I give "real" information. You keep posting and deleting incorrect information and that does harm. Stop talking about me here as well.
To clarify, I did not intend it as any sort of offense, merely an observation. It creates something of an awkward situation when someone is thinking about posting an answer and finds they'd merely be repeating what someone already said in a comment.
As to posting and deleting, I've been taught things specific ways, and I'm open to revising my knowledge when I find it to be in error. That's how learning works.
Sometimes we just happen to learn that we have more to learn than we thought we did in some areas.
Honestly, most of my recent deletions have been in an effort to move away from the practice of testing answers out in comments, which I've seen thoroughly discouraged on the Meta site.
 
6 hours later…
ssb
ssb
1:47 PM
I wonder what connection 色 has with the idea of various things (色々)
Could it just be the idea of varied things having different colors?
Anonymous
The oldest definition I see in 日国 is さまざまの色。各種の色。 with the more general さまざま。種々。 appearing later
Anonymous
So I guess it's a reduplicative plural which was then used figuratively
ssb
ssb
2:49 PM
I'm worried that with this "Japanese principle" question we have no way of knowing the correct answer
Regardless of if we can answer... Probably would be a good question for the proposed Japanese Culture site.
ssb
ssb
筋を通す might be a good candidate but there's no way we can know without having the video to check
 
2 hours later…
 
2 hours later…
Anonymous
6:59 PM
Seriously? "HOT META POSTS"? :-)
おハイや スネールボーツさん!
Anonymous
7:20 PM
Hehe! おはよう!
Anonymous
Typically you find /u/ as the epenthetic vowel of choice, but after /t/ or /d/ you insert /o/:
Anonymous
「ボート」
Anonymous
Oh, I should use hiragana still--I forgot
Anonymous
ぼーと
Anonymous
7:24 PM
McDonald's: まくどなるど (note the missing plural marker, which is usual)
It's okay. I should get used to it anyway. :-)
Anonymous
Here, /u/ is inserted after /k/ and /r/, but /o/ is inserted after /d/
Anonymous
Well, it won't do much good if you can't read it :-)
Anonymous
Have you started learning katakana?
Anonymous
マクドナルド
7:26 PM
Not really. I was looking for more materials today. :-)
Anonymous
You can find katakana to practice everywhere! :-) mcdonalds.co.jp
Somehow I think the design of most Japanese websites is usually pretty good!
@snailboat I guess that you will like this anime: あの花 (considering that you like けいおん).
Anonymous
Ohh, I think that series is a little different
Anonymous
あの花 is sad
Ahh, you've watched it already!
Anonymous
7:39 PM
[ [ あの-ひ み-た ] はな-の なまえ ]-を [ ぼく-たち ]-は [ まだ ] しら-ない
By the way, I'm not sure what this あ means.
Anonymous
It's part of the こそあ series (near, middle, far)
Anonymous
あの 'that'
Anonymous
(but probably more distant than その 'that')
Anonymous
7:40 PM
You can treat こ・そ・あ as "nouns" although they aren't complete words on their own, they're bound morphemes
Anonymous
and の as the genitive particle
In Thai, the anime's title was translated to "Flowers of Yesterday".
Anonymous
So it's こ-の, そ-の, あ-の
Anonymous
あの日 (あのひ) = "that day"
Anonymous
Don't take the thing I said about "distance" too seriously--I'm oversimplifying :-)
7:41 PM
:) nods
Anonymous
Kind of like how in English this and that have various uses
Anonymous
The full series is こそあど, where ど is like English wh-
Anonymous
So どの is like "which"
7:56 PM
I think Japanese anime feels different when it's being dubbed in English. (youtube.com/watch?v=HjLE8BmWfKA)
Anonymous
When I was taking French class in high school, we watched Disney movies dubbed in French
Anonymous
They had a very different feel
Anonymous
I think each language has its own feel
Anonymous
Oh, I saw Summer Wars!
Even when it has exactly the same visualization, sound effects, and background music.
Yay!
Anonymous
7:59 PM
I didn't like it as much as 時をかける少女(ときをかけるしょうじょ)
Oh, I like that one better too!
I could watch only about the latter 2/3 part of Summer Wars, and it has never rerun again.
Anonymous
Did you ever see ふしぎの海のナディア?  (海 = うみ)
Anonymous
Oh, I haven't, but it looks good to watch. :)
Anonymous
A lot of songs like that have subtitles you can read along with :-) (Although you'll just have to listen for the kanji you don't know yet)
Anonymous
8:05 PM
You'll notice some differences in pronunciation in songs, if you pay close attention
I found this earlier today: youtube.com/watch?v=lJ8n4ROULd4
It took me about 5 seconds before I could realize that I was watching subtitles in two languages.
What you had taught me about reading kanji characters was very useful!
(Thanks a lot!)
(Oh, by the way, I found another version of that song in Thai too. It's a fansub version, and the fansub singer literally cried while she was singing the song. :)
Anonymous
@DamkerngT. Oh, yes, that video's title and description appear to be in Chinese (I didn't let the video play yet)
8:23 PM
In the subtitle they write "Ahh" as two あ, one large and one small. I don't know how to write that with my Japanese keyboard.
Anonymous
Type axa あぁ
Anonymous
In general, x will get you a small letter.
あぁ
やった!
Anonymous
(On some OSes / input methods, you can use l instead, which people are quick to point out, but I feel it's best not to, because on other input methods la will give you ら rather than ぁ)
ありがとう!
Anonymous
8:27 PM
あぁ isn't really standard orthography, but you'll see it all the time anyway
Oh!
Oh, I got another question about those kana combinations. For example, しょ is one mora, I think. Is that correct?
Anonymous
Yes, that is correct.
Anonymous
All of the combinations with small ゃゅょ should be considered single morae
Anonymous
The difference is that there is a palatal glide inserted between the consonant and the vowel
Anonymous
The palatal glide can be thought of as the Japanese /i/ vowel quickly and smoothly transforming into the following vowel
Anonymous
8:31 PM
So きゅ starts like き and glides to う, all within the space of a single mora
kya, kyu, kyo, too, I think.
(They look a bit like two mora to me. :)
Anonymous
So hopefully with that in mind, you can see the reason for two things:
Anonymous
1. There's no such thing as *kyi (because you can't glide from /i/ to itself)
Anonymous
2. The kana before ゃゅょ is generally the /i/ column kana
Anonymous
8:33 PM
きゃ・ぎゃ・しゃ・じゃ・ちゃ・ぢゃ・にゃ・ひゃ・びゃ・ぴゃ・みゃ・りゃ
Is there any one not from the /i/ column? (I couldn't think of one.)
Anonymous
English speakers have a palatal glide to /u/, as in cute kjuːt, in Japanese キュート, so we're comfortable with the small ゅ glides, but we have a harder time with small ゃ and ょ and famously reanalyze them as /i.a/ and /i.o/ pairs (as in "Tokio" rather than to:kjo:)
@snailboat That looks like a visual play on Arabic calligraphy.
Anonymous
@EiríkrÚtlendi What, with the old form of 海?
Anonymous
8:37 PM
@DamkerngT. Generally no, but not everything you find written will follow standard orthography
even the font used for the hiragana
Anonymous
You should learn that it always follows い-column kana and be prepared to see occasional exceptions
plus the white-on-blue motif is very mediterranean / middle-eastern.
@snailboat I see. Thanks!
@DamkerngT., the や・ゆ・よ glide sounds all start with a vowel a bit like /i/, so they only join up with the "i" kana.
Anonymous
8:39 PM
@EiríkrÚtlendi That is what I just explained :-)
huh, those comments of yours (about "*kyi" and the preceding two) weren't there a second ago... my browser or connection must be acting up.
Anonymous
9 mins ago, by snailboat
The palatal glide can be thought of as the Japanese /i/ vowel quickly and smoothly transforming into the following vowel
@snailboat Hmm... I think I can't hear a /j/ sound in しょ.
sure, yes. it's that front vowel like /i/
/j/ is used to indicate the glide.
in careful speech especially, JA speakers will emphasize the /j/ in しゃ・しゅ・しょ
@EiríkrÚtlendi Ah, thank you! So in careful speech, しゃ will come out like shja, I guess?
Anonymous
8:42 PM
First, let's make a couple notational conventions clear
depending on the speaker and the casual / formal nature of the social context, しゃ・しゅ・しょ could be /ɕa ɕu ɕo/, or /ɕʲa ɕʲu ɕʲo/.
Anonymous
/j/ in IPA is what most anglophones think of as <y>
@snailboat: good idea. :)
Anonymous
And it's written y in many phonemic transcriptions
I like this [ɕʲa] too!
8:43 PM
(my bias is IPA -- but the beer is good too. ;) )
(Though I don't know how to write it myself. :)
Anonymous
Second, /j/ indicates a phonemic transcription, and the phonetic realization of a particular sequence with a phonemic glide might not phonetically have a glide
@EiríkrÚtlendi Of course! (about the beer. :)
Anonymous
These phonetic details should be written in []
@DamkerngT. Like ^that?
Anonymous
8:44 PM
(Japanese has no phonemic contrast between ɕ and ɕʲ, so it should not be written between slashes)
okay, to make sure I'm on the right page too, "phonemic" == how it parses meaning-wise, and uses // slashes, "phonetic" == how speakers actually pronounce it, and uses [] square brackets.
(I'd gotten lazy about // vs. [])
Anonymous
Phonetic transcriptions capture physical information, pronunciation with as much detail as you'd like to include (this is up to the transcriber), and appear between []
Anonymous
Phonemic transcriptions are a matter of theory and are intended to reflect the psychological reality of sounds
@EiríkrÚtlendi I understand them that way too.
Anonymous
Phonemes exist to the extent that we can find (hopefully systematic) phonemic contrasts between multiple words
8:46 PM
"phonemic contrast" == "change in sound that indicates change in meaning", yes?
Anonymous
Hmm. Sure.
not just allophonic, where "allophone" == "difference in sound that doesn't indicate difference in meaning"
Anonymous
In Thai, there are /pʰ/ and /p˭/ phonemes, because they're used to tell apart different words
Trying to make a [ɕʲa] sound is weird to me. I think I probably can't get it right.
so "jeechet" could be considered an allophone of "did you eat yet" for certain dialects of English. :)
Anonymous
8:47 PM
In English, [pʰ] and [p˭] are merely allophones of /p/
Anonymous
They're in complementary distribution and are entirely predictable and are never used to distinguish between two words
Anonymous
English pin has [pʰ], while spin has [p˭]
@EiríkrÚtlendi So it's true!? (I always doubt that.)
Anonymous
@EiríkrÚtlendi That is too big to be considered a phone of any sort
Anonymous
A phone is the smallest perceptible segment that can be identified
8:49 PM
Japanese has a sort of [p˭] too. Yay!
ah, yes, "phone" == one sound
so the phrase would be allophonic, comprising numerous allophones.
does that work?
Anonymous
@DamkerngT. Yes, Japanese has very light aspiration / very small VOT
Anonymous
An allophone is a phone. An allophonic contrast is a non-phonemic contrast (one that doesn't have a minimal pair) between realizations of one phoneme
one such allophone would be "~d y~" becoming "~j~" in fast speech.
Anonymous
This is why I'm not comfortable with the "change in meaning" definition :-)
8:51 PM
"minimal pair" == "pair of words containing a difference in sound that indicates a difference in meaning"?
(swapping "change" for "difference")
Anonymous
Consider ˈaɪðɚ and ˈiːðɚ, forms in free variation for either. aɪ and iː are not allophones because they can be used to tell apart the minimal pair bike and beak
Anonymous
And since speakers of English are trained to spot the difference, we can tell apart the pronunciations fairly easily
Anonymous
In this case they make no difference in meaning
Anonymous
But that doesn't make the pair allophonic, because we process them as different sounds
Anonymous
8:55 PM
Whereas in pin and spin, we hear the same /p/ sound in both, unless we've learned a language with contrastive aspiration on p
Ahh... I think I have to excuse myself.
Anonymous
@DamkerngT. おやすみなさい^^
Thank you very much @snailboat @EiríkrÚtlendi!
Anonymous
いえいえ^^
(Should I reply おやすみなさい with おやすみなさい in Japanese?)
Anonymous
8:56 PM
You can if you like!
おやすみなさい!
ありがとうございます!
@snailboat So "minimal pair" is not "pair of words", but cases where a pair of sounds is itself always contrastive?
Anonymous
9:19 PM
@EiríkrÚtlendi Well, a "minimal pair" generally is a pair that demonstrates a difference between two things, holding all other variables constant. Often those two things are phonemes
Anonymous
I can't use the word "always" because contrasts can be neutralized
Anonymous
For example, /t/ and /d/ can both be realized as [ɾ] in American English
then, cases where a pair of sounds is usually contrastive. :) the clear point I'm getting at here is that "minimal pair" is describing a pair of sounds, not a pair of words. am I right on that score?
Anonymous
A minimal pair is an example which distinguishes a pair of sounds, yes
Anonymous
@EiríkrÚtlendi If you'd like to actually diagram the sentence in your most recent answer, RSyntaxTree is a handy tool yohasebe.com/rsyntaxtree
Anonymous
9:30 PM
It works with Unicode and can render Japanese fine (but not with the default settings--make sure you pick JP-Gothic or such)
Anonymous
(I don't think you need to, I'm only pointing it out in case you wanted to :-)
Anonymous
9:45 PM
Although "minimal pair" is used to refer to any pair of examples which change in only one way, which can be used to establish a distinction
Anonymous
> That's what linguists call a minimal pair: the two expressions are the same except for a single contrasting feature, demonstrating that the feature in question cannot be finessed as a matter of fine phonetic detail but must play a crucial role in the phonology.
Anonymous
(I'm quoting Geoffrey Pullum on Language Log: languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3198 )
cool tool
thank you!
don't know if I have time now to learn it and edit,
that may have to wait until tonight
oofda -- how does one diagram a metaphor in a parallel construction?
Anonymous
10:02 PM
Ah, I wasn't sure exactly how you wanted to diagram it :-) I'm still trying to decide how I'd like to diagram Japanese
10:23 PM
Try this next string in RSyntaxTree -- does that structure make sense? And is there a better label for のように?
[S [META [NP [VP [ADV どうしようもなく^][V 流れる]][N 濁流]][like のように^]] [VP [NP [NP [ADJ 急激な][N 感情][GEN の]][OBJ 波を]][ADV 止められずに^][V いる]]]
it's inconsistent in the treatment of particles, needs refinement or simplification.
Anonymous
10:55 PM
Ah, I don't know :-)
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