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Anonymous
12:00 AM
There are definitely modern linguists that accept the system of six 活用形, or sometimes something quite similar
 
Anonymous
Shibatani suggests seven! He separates out the volitional so it no longer attaches to a secondary 未然形
 
Anonymous
I also think a lot of people for practical reasons prefer the six 活用形 system because ① they've already learned it, ② it's what dictionaries and school grammar use, ③ it doesn't force them to use rōmaji
 
Anonymous
The last point is actually a really good one, because even though rōmaji can represent the Japanese (spoken) language just fine, the fact is that just about everybody uses regular Japanese writing. And reading is a highly overlearned skill―if you aren't used to reading rōmaji, it's a lot harder!
 
Anonymous
And since everyone uses regular Japanese writing, almost nobody is actually used to reading Japanese in rōmaji.
 
Anonymous
Getting used to it would take a lot of effort people don't want to put in.
 
Anonymous
12:05 AM
So I actually think sticking to a system that fits well in kana has a lot of practical value.
 
Anonymous
Although I think theoretically it's kind of artificial.
 
Anonymous
And the school grammar system is pretty messy theoretically . . . it has its own learning curve
 
Anonymous
You have to memorize that する has three different 未然形, and when to use each one . . .
 
5:10 AM
@Flaw それや!
大弓
 
5:39 AM
ここに、
> スケジュール感:スケジュールと同義。(IT業界?)
なんでぼかして言うのか不明。ぼかしたところでその期日が緩くなるわけでもなんでもない。
って書いてあるんだけど、このページって、冗談?
信用していいのだろうか・・
 
6:07 AM
@Schoko 私個人としては、正直好まないタイプの言葉ですが、最近複数の大臣クラスの方々が公の場で使われていることもあり、完全に無視もできないといった状況なのです。以上!
 
 
1 hour later…
7:12 AM
Wow did writing "the Chinese-imported kanji" feel rather redundant, but ah well, I think it makes my point clearer for people who don't know what kanji literally means.
I should translate these dictionary entries, but more importantly I should sleep, so doing that first. :-)
 
 
6 hours later…
1:31 PM
How could I delete a review I posted?
I made the mistake of posting a wrong review here. japanese.stackexchange.com/questions/28433/… I'm sorry. What should I do to remove my wrong review?
 
1:48 PM
キャンセルはできないようで・・
一応approve された
 
良かったです! すみません、お騒がせしました。お返事ありがとうございます。キャンセルできないとは……以後、本当気をつけます。
 
いあいあいあ
これ、
まちがえた
これ
 
あ、イベント近いですね!
 
へえ~
イベント・・
そういうイベントって、たまに開かれてたんですか
 
すみません。新参者なのでよく分かりません。
 
1:55 PM
まあ、東京なんで、行けないし、そもそも、コンピュータのことは全く分からないので、近くても行かないけど・・
 
でも、刺激たっぷりで楽しそうですね
 
チケットって、有料なんでしょうか
 
そうなんですね。私も行けないんですけど笑
ラグで会話が前後してすみません
参加料はあるみたいです。
 
場所代もあるだろうし、弁当を用意・・って書いてあるし、そうなんでしょうね
読んでも、まったくわからないww
「ハッカソン」って何ww
 
社長さんって、どこかに書いてあったような……
 
1:58 PM
「ライトニングトーク」もわからないようww
「ハカソン」と「ハッカソン」があるけど、同じものなのかしら・・
 
私もです。今ググって調べました笑
すみません。間違えました。社長さんの名前はジョエル・スポルスキさんでした。
11
Q: Stack Overflow 10月「DevDays」

jmacチケットは好評発売中です!クリックしてください:http://devdays.peatix.com Stack Overflowの社長ジョエル・スポルスキが来日します。 10月に来日します!Stack Overflow社では開発者の力になれることは何でもやろうと考えています。その一つとして、開発者のみなさんが主役のイベントの開催を計画しています。参加しませんか? Twitterより 当コミュニティのユーザーの参加を優先したいので、もし興味があれば、下記のアンケートをご記入よろしくお願いします。 https://docs.google.com/form...

 
へ~~
 
ハッカソンも面白そうですね。ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/…
 
へえ!ハック+マラソン=ハッカソン だって!
 
ですね!私も初めて知りました!
英語の造語のつくり方、興味深いです。
 
2:09 PM
> 24時間を越えたり競争が激しい場合は参加者はしばしばピザや栄養ドリンクでくだけた食事をする。また寝る時も寝袋などで雑魚寝する
だって!ww
目に浮かぶようだわ・・ww
 
何日も経つと、獣の匂いが漂いそうな笑。なんだか青春な感じします。
 
たのしそう!行かないけどw
 
見てみたい!行けないけど笑
ちょっと話飛びますが、このチャットでリンク貼ったとき、URLだけ表示されるのと、リンク先の内容が表示されるのとありますが、これって何か操作の違いなんでしょうか?
 
なんかね、wikiとか、youtubeとか、SEのサイトのページとか、いくつかきまったのだけ、内容が表示されるらしいです。
 
そうなんですね。
いろいろ教えていただいて、ありがとうございます!
 
2:19 PM
あ、たぶんこれ
 
おおおっ
 
> Some links will be automatically inlined if posted on a single line by themselves, such as:

Stack Exchange questions,
answers, and users
Chat messages and rooms
Images
Wikipedia pages
Amazon products
Youtube videos
Twitter messages
Github gists
「How do I format my messages?」の項に
 
なるほどです。ありがたく、Evernoteに頂戴しました!
あれ…Wikipedia入ってるのに、さっきのハッカソンのリンクは内容表示されてないですね。もしかして、英語サイトのみの対応でしょうか
 
一行で、それ単独で貼らないとだめみたいです
 
そういうルールもあるんですね!
勉強になります。
 
2:26 PM
ってすると展開するのに、
ってすると、だめなんですね
「あ」をつけただけなのに
コンピューターのいろいろ、むつかしい何かがあるんでしょう・・
私には計り知れない・・
 
わっ笑。おっきい笑。なんかちょっと恥ずかしいです笑
 
最初、HiruneDiver って、HiruneDriver って読んでて、
昼寝しながら運転するのか~あぶねっ
って思ってたww
 
危なすぎですね笑。完全に通報されそう笑
昼寝にダーイブってくらいのリラックスな気持ちよさをイメージして名付けました。
何か学ぶ時ってリラックス大事かなと思いまして。
Shocoさん、お名前変わりました?
あ、お忙しいところ、もしも引き止めてたら、ごめんなさい。
 
2:43 PM
あれ?もういらっしゃらない? では、私もこれにて失礼します。
いろいろとありがとうございました!
 
 
7 hours later…
9:39 PM
@snailboat Thanks for that. I assume you mean History of the Japanese Language? I still need to get a copy. But then I'm still reading through other JA linguistics stuff at the moment (Unger's Role of Contact at the moment, to be followed by Vovin's Koreo-Japonica), and chewing on Navajo stuff...
(fascinating room for 蛇足 there, with lots of interesting as-yet-imponderables -- the use of ni as a terminative, which in NV is also related to terms having to do with "earth, ground", not unlike JA nu and ni; rough similarities in some grammatical aspects, after teasing apart the fused verb forms; etc. etc.)
Re: 未然形, it does actually appear on its own -- but generally not as we'd expect.
Take 群れる, OJP form muru.
The 未然形 (calling it that now for convenience, setting aside the question of its historical existence) would be mura
and indeed, a village is a kind of grouping.
 
Anonymous
Yes, A History of the Japanese Language (Bjarke Frellesvig, 2010)
 
thx!
there are many other cases, too, of 未然形 appearing as other words.
曲がる > magu > maga
綯う > nawu > nawa
生える > hayu > haya
 
Anonymous
@EiríkrÚtlendi One problem with this theory is that the 未然形 of 群る would be 群れ. Another is that we don't have enough evidence to conclusively link the words, or any semantic basis for thinking that, assuming they're related, it would be the 未然形 if it had that shape.
 
all we have in the historical record of 群る is 下二段, yes, but what I've read so far suggests that the 下 and 上 conjugation patterns grew out of older 四段 patterns.
Frellesvig goes into that transformation some in the History.
Not necessarily making a case for existence of the 未然形, simply trying to suss out if we ever see what looks like a verb stem with the -a ending on its own.
Semantically, there can be clear examples.
綯う > 縄 is one such where it seems reasonably clear.
 
Anonymous
Well, it's reasonable to suggest that the verbs are related to the nouns.
 
Anonymous
10:33 PM
4
Q: 終了 and 終わり, is there a difference?

Firefly72I don't think this is a duplicate . . . So can someone tell me if there is a difference between the two? I know they both mean end, but are they interchangeable? I came across this sentence お遊びタイム終了。 Which I would interpret as "game time is over", but could 終わり have been used instead? Tha...

 
Anonymous
We have lots of questions about choosing between Sino-Japanese and native Japanese words, I think.
 
Anonymous
Or sometimes recent loans (meaning 外来語)
 
Anonymous
Should we have a tag for lexical strata?
 
Anonymous
I know some people use a center-versus-periphery model instead of calling them 'strata' . . .
 
Anonymous
I don't really know a better name for the tag than though.
 
10:38 PM
枯れる "to dry out" > *karu* > *kara* "dryness"
矯める "bending something" > *tamu* > *tama* "something round"
捏ねる "to knead (flour, etc.)" > *konu* > *kona* "powder, flour"
果てる "to come to an end" > *hatu* > *hata* "edge, end"
By one analysis, these could all be viewed as similar to the gerundive -ing forms in English, only with a focus on the product of the action as opposed to the action itself.
 
Anonymous
The four strata usually considered are: native words (大和言葉), Sino-Japanese words (漢語), sound-symbolic words (音象徴語), and recent loans (外来語)
 
Anonymous
Oh hey, we do have a tag for , but only 3 questions tagged with it.
 
Anonymous
@EiríkrÚtlendi I'd be interested to see an analysis that shows how the forms on the left are related to the forms on the right.
 
@snailboat: "lexical strata" here would refer to native JA, as opposed to more recent Sino-Japanese? I think this is the same terminology used to describe the differences between, say, "cow" and "beef" in English.
ah, sorry for the confusion, my timing in replies is all off. o.O
 
Anonymous
Maybe I should format that message differently
 
Anonymous
10:48 PM
The four strata usually considered are:
1. native words (大和言葉)
2. Sino-Japanese words (漢語)
3. sound-symbolic words (音象徴語), and
4. recent loans (外来語)
 
Anonymous
Phonologists keep #3 separate
 
Anonymous
Otherwise you have three basic strata
 
that also looks like a historical progression... ah, your note about #3 answers what I was about to ask. ;)
 
Anonymous
It has some distinct characteristics, like unrestricted /p/ in initial position, ぺらぺら or ぱちぱち
 
or ぴかぴか?
 
Anonymous
10:50 PM
Yes! :-)
 
or are reduplicatives with clear OJP roots considered differently?
(ひかる in this case)
 
Anonymous
No, we can see the distinction between ひかり and ぴか in that the latter retains its singleton /p/
 
Anonymous
Whereas the former has debuccalized to /h/
 
indeed.
however, this would be a case of #3 that seems (historically) to belong more to #1
 
Anonymous
Right
 
Anonymous
10:51 PM
Or どきどき from Sino-Japanese 動悸
 
...hence your note about #3? (trying to make sure I'm on the same page)
 
Anonymous
Saying they fit into the third stratum is not a statement about the origin of the word
 
Anonymous
But phonologists like to keep it separate because of the separate rules that apply to it :-)
 
so the list above is not (necessarily) a diachronic progression from #1 (oldest) to #4 (newest)
 
Anonymous
So yeah, you can talk about three strata or four, I think, depending on what distinctions you want to draw.
 
Anonymous
11:01 PM
I'm trying to think of what to put in the tag wiki. Besides three of the strata aligning with a difference in origin, there are phonological and distributional differences between them, and also usually a difference in register, which might be the most important part to folks on this site.
 
Anonymous
At some point I'd like to try to expand a lot of the tag wikis here, not a ton because I don't think people really look at them very often, but to give a basic outline of some information and hopefully provide some references on each topic.
 
Anonymous
Or maybe I should start by adding to our resources page on meta :-)
 
Anonymous
@Earthliŋ What do you think? The tag clean-up project we did a few months ago felt kind of like your project :-)
 
Anonymous
I never did make an adnoun (連体詞) tag. I still wonder if any non-linguist English speakers have ever heard of an "adnoun" before.
 
Anonymous
The other English terms I know for 連体詞 are "adnominal words" or "attributive words", or more simply borrowing the Japanese and calling them "rentaishi"
 
Anonymous
11:08 PM
What do textbooks for learners call 連体詞?
 
Anonymous
The ones written in English, I mean.
 
Anonymous
@EiríkrÚtlendi By the way, I appreciate the discussion, and in particular the list of examples (which I will save for later!) but I don't really have anything more to add about the relationship between the two sets of words.
 
Re: the verb-noun stuff, cheers, no worries.
just throwing ideas around. :)
re: 連体詞, I've run into "adnominal" more often than "adnoun", and "adnominal" sounds more ... natural? I guess.
 
Anonymous
Adnoun is just Martin's term (from A Reference Grammar of Japanese, 1975)
 
Japanese grammar terms as described in English could use a general reworking anyway -- 形容詞 are effectively stative verbs -- but that's probably overly ambitious. :)
ya, I've seen "adnoun", I just don't think it sounds right.
 
Anonymous
11:12 PM
The problem is that we need to compromise and create a hierarchy that works for the users of our site.
 
ya
problem with what, though? terminology to use?
 
Anonymous
Well, the terminology varies a lot depending on the analysis, right?
 
Anonymous
I think overall people are most comfortable using 学校文法 as a starting point.
 
ah, sorry -- I should have tagged the bit about statives as 蛇足. :)
yes, agree about 学校文法.
 
Anonymous
But in 日本語教育, people talk about イ形容詞 and ナ形容詞 (and sometimes ノ形容詞)
 
Anonymous
11:15 PM
And I think it's pretty common for learners to know about "na-adjectives" and not "adjectival verbs" (!)
 
Anonymous
I think we can all agree 形容動詞 is not an ideal term :-)
 
in language learning materials for EN speakers, I've most often seen mention of "-i and -na adjectives", with some discussion of nouns used as adjectives (sometimes called "-no adjectives")
ya, the "verb" / 動詞 part never made sense to me.
there's nothing very verb-y about them.
形容名詞 would make more sense,
and I've seen some JA writers use that term.
but it doesn't have much currency.
(brb, stuff IRL)
 
Anonymous
Yeah, and a lot of linguists use the term "nominal adjective" (NA) for them in English.
 
Anonymous
They do have something verby about them, which is that they combine with copular forms derived from fusions of the copular construction に(て)+あり, and that was clearer in older forms of the language where they had undergone less phonetic erosion
 
Anonymous
That is, the eroded forms だ and な no longer look morphologically like verbs, but で+ある or にて+あり and に+ある or に+あり did look like verbs―at least, the end bit.
 
Anonymous
11:21 PM
And in traditional grammar, the noun-like bit (say, きれい) is considered the 語幹 word stem and the copular bit in construction with it is considered the 語尾 word tail (inflecting portion of the word).
 
Anonymous
And if you consider it all one word, and the end inflects like a verb, then it does seem kinda "verby".
 
Anonymous
But if you consider the bit at the end a separate word, and if you consider the modern eroded forms 「だ」「な」など (which are of course identical to the forms of 助動詞「だ」 analyzed as a separate word in the case of nouns), then there doesn't seem to be much of a reason to call the category 形容動詞 . . .
 
Anonymous
So of course I agree with you :-)
 
11:39 PM
sorry, have to run -- "brb" has turned into "back I-don't-know-when-but-hopefully-in-the-next-couple-days". :)
TTFN!
 
Anonymous
Later!
 

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