Japanese Language - 2013-04-16 (page 1 of 2)

« first day (685 days earlier) ← previous day next day → last day (4014 days later) »

Anonymous

12:00 AM

I see both AV on the list ("Adult Video" and "Audio Visual")

not in the main linked one

Anonymous

Oh, on the longer list, I mean.

List of Japanese Latin alphabetic abbreviations

Abbreviations are common in Japanese; these include many Latin alphabet letter combinations, generally pronounced as initialisms. Some of these combinations are common in English, but others are unique to Japan or of Japanese origin, and form a kind of wasei eigo (Japanese-coined English). This is a list of Latin alphabet letter combinations used in Japan. A * ADV – ADVenture game * AV – Adult Video :means porn video * AV – Audio Visual :means audio visual * AVG – AdVenture Game :means adventure game, a type of video game B * BGM – BackGround Music * BS ...

click on that title i guess

ああ！ありました～

this list is missing OSV

that was always one that confused me when i was 12

12:03 AM

OSV... Object, Subject, Verb?

Ha! yeah

（絶対違う！ｗｗ）

Anonymous

OSV isn't specifically a Japanese abbreviation, though

Anonymous

Wait

Anonymous

Do you mean "original sound version"?

Anonymous

12:06 AM

I got confused because I thought you meant "object subject verb" :-)

Anonymous

OSV/OST

yes, OSV/OST

Anonymous

Yeah, that's a good one to add, I think

Anonymous

(Or a good two?)

Anonymous

There's also OM = オーダーメイド

Anonymous

12:10 AM

I wonder if the Google #s for "暖かった" are deceptive.

Anonymous

Maybe it's really much less common than Google estimates

i wish we could do ngrams in japanese

Anonymous

@djahandarie In Makino's terminology, 帰る is a punctual verb

Anonymous

Where does the term state cache verb come from?

Anonymous

"state cache verb" got me 0 google results

12:16 AM

@snailplane is that another Makino term?

Anonymous

Sorry, this is in response to japanese.stackexchange.com/a/11722/1478

Comes from typo

I meant state-change

Anonymous

I'm trying to understand what "state cache verb" means

Anonymous

A-ha

state change?

like.. 太る？

12:17 AM

Yup

I think state-change is the nicest term for it

punctual means... that 帰っている can never mean "I am (currently) traveling home"?

Yes

Anonymous

Well

Anonymous

Punctual is an adjective form of point

Anonymous

So, a punctual verb describes an event that take place at a single point in time

Anonymous

12:19 AM

Hence the name

Right. That's not what it "means", that's just an implication.

can 帰ってる really NEVER mean "I'm going home" though

i feel like i've heard it used that way

Anonymous

@ssb Makino refers to verb that can be continual or punctual as "continual-punctual verbs"

Anonymous

帰る is not listed in that section, but...

It can still mean "I am in the state of having gone home", though... right?

12:20 AM

where are these references from, anyway?

Anonymous

I am typing from A Dictionary of Basic Japanese Grammar

Anonymous

one of the appendices

帰ってる "usually" means "i got home already"

Anonymous

Appendix 2: Semantic Classification of Verbs and Adjectives

@jkerian Yeah

12:21 AM

ah ok

i haven't read through the basic dictionary in a long time

is really... really bad with technical language terms... so he always has to verify what the implications are

Anonymous

I would not be shocked to learn that verbs don't fit 100% into the categories listed here

Anonymous

Well, I'm bad with Japanese grammar, so I've been studying it!

Anonymous

I like linguistics terms in general

i wholly recommend reading all three of those dictionaries from start to finish

Anonymous

12:22 AM

I never did find a copy of Advanced

Anonymous

I bought Basic and Intermediate back in like, '98

i love the intermediate one for its appendices more than for its dictionary

Anonymous

Or maybe 99-2000. I was just starting out, and a friend who was helping me with Japanese recommended them

Anonymous

But I neglected them for a long time

I really need to get into studying grammar again. I've been over-focused on kanji and vocab.

Anonymous

12:24 AM

Kanji and vocab are fun! :-)

Wow, '98?

more important that learning grammar, i think

Anonymous

Yeah, I'm 31 and I started studying Japanese in high school

I don't remember what I was doing back then...

@snailplane 'young un

12:24 AM

Hey hey, don't go revealing your age like that

Anonymous

And yeah, I know I should be better at Japanese by now :-)

Anonymous

Haha.

Anonymous

I actually started studying Japanese during French class

god now i feel like a baby

Anonymous

Since my options were limited to French, German, and Spanish

Anonymous

12:25 AM

And I wanted to learn Latin and Japanese

@ssb I'm only 21 here if that's any comfort.

Anonymous

But during the 2000s I didn't have a lot of time to spend on Japanese because work was pretty much my life

For me it was Comp Sci.... I learned most of my basic Japanese sitting in the back row of my comp sci classes. Then I moved to Japan for a bit... and took my programming seriously for the first time in my life (bought a subscription to oreilly's safari site, read up on code design and architecture).

I've been watching anime since like 2007, but only seriously studying Japanese for the past year or so. All the anime watching helped with a lot of stuff, everything felt pretty natural when I was learning all the rules.

I now have an absolutely awesome coding job (hard disk firmware is hard... but fun), and they're planning on sending me to Japan soonish.

Anonymous

12:28 AM

Woo

Anonymous

@djahandarie That explains why I know more kanji than you. It's really easy to pick up kanji if you spread it out over enough time :-)

Yeah... I know close to nothing.

I'm slowly getting better at reading, but my writing skills are pretty awful.

Anonymous

I like writing

Anonymous

I think it helps me with reading.

Anonymous

My study buddy has never learned to write any Japanese whatsoever.

Anonymous

12:31 AM

He adapted Heisig's system to involve no writing at all

Haha.

@djahandarie 平成生まれなんだ～

いいな～

i'm heisei to :o

too

@snailplane Ahh... just focused on reading?

Alot of people do that, and think they're following the RTK method. It's a bit odd, really.

@ssb いいな～

12:34 AM

@Chocolate ええ。だれも私より年上だそうです…

うらやましい！

Anonymous

@jkerian Yep! He and I have sharp differences of opinion on how best to learn, which is kind of fun. It's probably also (more) evidence that you can get away with learning whichever way you want, as long as you put the time in

ちょっと私の年を分けてあげましょう←要らんって

Anonymous

In this case, my study buddy knows that RTK is supposed to involve writing. (His fiancee worked through all of RTK1+3 the way the book says, and she's still adding new kanji!)

Anonymous

She's getting really good at Japanese, but she still does Heisig stories in English.

12:41 AM

まあ、僕もちょっと老けたような感じがします…タレントとかみんな高校生などです

僕、今大学から卒業しているのだぜ！…と考えて、憂鬱な気分になります。

Anonymous

Are you going to graduate school or such?

いいえ、今仕事を探しているのです

Anonymous

It does seem like Haskell has become kind of popular, despite their best efforts

Anonymous

I have a Haskell friend. He works at JanRain

Anonymous

Does anyone outside academia use Agda for anything?

12:50 AM

Yeah, I'm a big Haskell fan.

Agda does not have much use outside of academia aside from learning how to think about things the right way

Anonymous

s/right/One True/

Pretty much. :D

It's really, truly a good thing to learn though. Both as a mathematician and a computer scientist (as it basically unites the two fields in a really nice way)

Anonymous

My interest in Agda is limited to something very useless

Anonymous

(I have a fictional world in my head with a fictional programming language in it, and I need to learn about real analogues for the story to make any sense)

Anonymous

In real life, I think of programming as craft

12:55 AM

Well, basically, the use is in helping you naturally get better at making most of your programs/algorithms be structurally recursive rather than loop-based or generative

Anonymous

Like making art in real life, you can do pretty much whatever you want--and engineering is a subset of that

Anonymous

Which is sometimes appropriate to varying extents

Which has nice benefits in terms of proving termination and time complexities, as well as pretty much any property of the algorithm that you may want to talk about

Anonymous

Practically speaking I'm wary of both overengineering and underengineering

Anonymous

Uh-huh

12:57 AM

For example, proving things about the quicksort algorithm is very annoying, but proving things about the fused treesort algorithm is very easy (for example, proving that it actually sorts your list rather than just shuffles it in some undefined manner)

Anyways, it's not really something that can be easily explained I don't think. Basically the reason I like Agda is because I've slowly been progressing down the same path of stuff I like and it just happens to be on the way. :)

Jumping straight into it would probably never make any sense for anyone

Anonymous

Ah, don't worry about me

Anonymous

I've been programming a lot longer than you :-D

Anonymous

FP since the mid-90s, anyway

Anonymous

That doesn't mean I really know what I'm doing, of course!

Anonymous

Though for some reason I've been able to get people to pay me to do it

1:01 AM

If you're into FP then I'd recommend checking Haskell and then Agda out. Of course Haskell is where it's at for actually doing stuff, but Agda can help you be a better Haskell program -- I guess?

FRP is finally maturing in Haskell, which is nice for games

Anonymous

Ah, thanks, I've already written Haskell

Anonymous

for games?

Yes

Anonymous

Wait

Anonymous

Let me repeat that

Anonymous

1:02 AM

For games?

Anonymous

Sorry, haskell + games = brain explode

Yes, for games

Anonymous

Thank you for repeating your answer

Anonymous

Eventually it may find its way through my skull

I think you might like raincat.bysusanlin.com

Anonymous

1:04 AM

Oh, hey, my Haskell friend knows who you are

Anonymous

He says you might recognize the name c_wraith

Yup, I know him, haha.

Small world after all I guess.

Anonymous

I talk to him about Haskell sometimes. I don't write much Haskell myself

Anonymous

I started out doing really low level stuff and have been slowly working my way up

Anonymous

My language history goes something like BASIC -> 6502 / 68k / x86 -> pascal -> c -> c++ -> bash -> perl -> scheme -> ml -> MIPS -> tcl -> as3 -> python

1:07 AM

It's a nice language. I'd say that it's not easy to understand why until you get pretty deep though. The main reason people start is because it has reasonably nice syntax to do silly things in really small amounts of code and still be readable.

Anonymous

Haskell would fit in at the end if I knew it well enough to stick it on the list.

Anonymous

But that's where it'd go chronologically. I never wrote any Haskell until a couple years ago

But the reason to keep going is pretty much because of the type safety.

Anonymous

Hmm, stick common lisp in there somewhere.

Why'd you switch off of ML?

To MIPS, of all things, haha.

Anonymous

1:09 AM

That list doesn't imply a switch from one language to another, it's just a chronological list

Anonymous

Like, I've never stopped writing C++

Anonymous

(Since that's mostly what I've gotten paid for)

Ah. I see.

I have no idea what my history is in that sense.

Anonymous

Yeah, it was hard to write that list

Anonymous

It's probably a deceptive list.

1:09 AM

"Learned a bunch of languages, still learning a bunch more?" Haha.

Anonymous

I mean, I've used a lot more languages than those

Anonymous

But a lot of them I only have a little bit of exposure to

Yeah. My list of languages where I'd feel comfortable doing stuff in is not terribly huge

Anonymous

I pretty much use whatever language seems to come up in a particular situation

Anonymous

Like, at one point, I actually got paid to maintain VBscript

Anonymous

1:11 AM

That was a sad day

I guess I'd feel very comfortable in Haskell, Java, PHP, Javascript, Python

Anonymous

Oh, I left off PHP

Anonymous

I left off Java on purpose, since I try to avoid thinking about Java

Anonymous

I'm somewhat comfortable in JS

Anonymous

After all, it's not that different from AS3, which is derived from ECMAscript

1:12 AM

Languages I'd be comfortable with after a couple weeks of working solely with them would be Agda, C, Coq, Erlang, Scheme

Anonymous

(I learned AS3 a couple years ago because I wanted to make a Flash game)

Anonymous

Of those I've only used C and Scheme

Anonymous

C is a nice language

Anonymous

It's a terrible language, but

Anonymous

It's so small, you can reasonably claim to know the entire thing (including the standard library).

Anonymous

1:13 AM

Not so with many languages

Languages which I've used before but would need 2-3 months to master would be Scala, Clojure, OCaml, SML, various flavors of ASM, D, C#, C++, F#, Obj-C, Perl, CL, Prolog, Lua

Anonymous

Ah, I left off Lua! I did a lot of lua

Probably forgetting some stuff on there. Then there's other languages I've only played around with a tiny bit but those aren't worth listing

Anonymous

No fair, you listed OCaml twice

Anonymous

(though the second time you spelled it F#)

1:13 AM

Haha.

Anonymous

Lua is a fun little language.

Anonymous

I wish there were a nice standard library for it

Anonymous

But that would be besides the point, I guess

Anonymous

Incidentally, I think you set a much lower bar for "mastery" than I do

Maybe. I meaning learning all commonly-used libraries by heart and being able to answer any question anyone has in the IRC channel for the language.

Anonymous

1:16 AM

I wouldn't claim to have "mastered" C++ even though I've spent 20+ years doing it

I don't mean "I wrote the compiler / language spec" mastered

That one is kind of hard to get to :)

Anonymous

@Chocolate Oh, you answered about あたたかった! Thank you!

Anonymous

"It seems pretty hard for young children to pronounce あたたかかった/あったかかった, especially the たた and かか parts" ← and it's hard for some learners of Japanese as a foreign language!

Anonymous

I was wondering about this because my study buddy was complaining about how hard it was to say あたたかかった

I got tripped up on 難しかった today

1:22 AM

いあいあ～

そうなんだ～^^

Mainly because I had to say it clearly to one of my friends in class, he didn't know what I was saying when I just mumbled it like I usually do (works for Japanese people... :P)

Anonymous

I guess it's like playing an instrument--you develop the muscle memory and it gets easier to say over time?

I posted but I wasn't really sure about my answer so I deleted, and then edited and reposted

So when I tried to slow it down and sound out each kana with less devoicing and stuff, I messed up.

じゃ、みなさん、おやすみ～

1:23 AM

i still get tripped up trying to use causative passive

the words lways come out in a jumble

Anonymous

Oh! Rest well, @Chocolate!

ah, good nigt!

おやすみ

Anonymous

I think my biggest problem is when I don't use the right pitch contour / accent

Anonymous

Sometimes I think I get it right. (I can tell, or I think I can--it "sounds right")

Anonymous

1:25 AM

Sometimes when I know I'm saying it wrong, the words sound really unnatural coming out of my mouth

i have that problem sometimes too

Anonymous

but I can't think of the right pitch contour/whatever.

I'm generally fine with that, unless it's a word I've only seen in writing, but I don't really read that much so that's generally not an issue for me.

And honestly whenever I see a new word, I go to Daijirin and get the pitch accent and then just say it a bunch. If I don't do that I won't remember it anyways.

Anonymous

Yeah, but pitch accent isn't a complete description of the pitch of a word/utterance

So you're talking about the pitch changing due to its position in the sentence?

Anonymous

1:29 AM

Pitch accent describes the (phonemic) large downward change in pitch which occurs at most once in a word

Anonymous

But when you're talking normally you have these whole up and down pitch contours

Anonymous

That occur across words and phrases

Anonymous

That's not phonemic

Anonymous

But it's there!

I guess. That has always been natural to me.

Only for 標準語 though. I can't speak properly for other dialects.

1:31 AM

i think that's going to be one of the last things anyone masters when learning a foreign language

Anonymous

@ssb If I ever master it at all ;-)

Anonymous

I am happy when it just naturally comes out of my mouth, though.

exactly, I think most people never make it to the point of needing to worry about perfect pitch countours

I can 'kind of' do it right for 関西弁 but it's very clear that I'm a noob

I just really like accents and such, I can do like 10 different ones for English

a lot of the time when I hear other americans trying to speak 'natural sounding' japanese it just sounds off to me

i'm sure i'm not much better of course but

i don't know, if you guys can do it well then more power to you

Anonymous

1:32 AM

Yeah, in my case, the ability of my ear to identify "natural" is probably limited

Anonymous

So in some cases things sound unnatural to me, and in other cases they probably don't, but only because my ear is wrong

I have no idea if I can do it well or not. It sounds fine to me, I've never asked any natives.

i'm interested in seeing if there's a correlation between sense of musical pitch and the ability to imitate a foreign languages tones

I can record something tonight and ask in here maybe.

Anonymous

Ah, I do have perfect pitch

1:33 AM

it always feels like a very musical thing to me

Anonymous

That's supposed to help with tonal languages, in theory

Anonymous

Not that Japanese is usually considered a "tonal language"

right, i mean in a much broader sense of natural intonation

Anonymous

Japanese does seem musical to me

It really bugs me that I can't do anything near 関西弁 though. I can hear it perfectly in my head but can't reproduce it with my mouth at all.

Alright, brb, need to drive home.

Anonymous

1:38 AM

I definitely feel like I can "hear" (audiate) Japanese much better in my head than I can speak it.

Anonymous

Drive safe!

Anonymous

My ear for Japanese is not good, though.

Anonymous

Too much time spent reading, too little time spent listening or conversing

Anonymous

It is nice having 大辞林 to look up pitch accent. For a long time, the only dictionary I had with pitch accent was the Green Goddess (4th edition)

Anonymous

I gave that away when I got the 5th edition, but the 5th doesn't mark accent

Anonymous

1:42 AM

The 集英社国語辞典 I got does mark it, though

Anonymous

I was thinking that'd be a nice reason to get a 電子辞書, for the "native pronunciation" feature

Anonymous

I feel like it's something more easily learned by listening than seeing

2:08 AM

You know, 国へ帰る時 is kind of interesting...

I'm trying to think of exactly what time frame that is referencing and I think it's pretty ambiguous

2:28 AM

it has a pretty wide time frame

the general implication is that it's connected somehow to your return

which could extend pretty far before that if you like have to do paperwork or something

.. i think

1 hour later…

Anonymous

3:31 AM

This is interesting ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2897724

Anonymous

I can't find open access to this paper anywhere, so I've only got the abstract, but from http://www.isca-speech.org/archive/icslp_2002/i02_0257.html :

In this paper we investigate whether musically trained non-tonal language speakers perceive lexical tone better than their non-musician counterparts. Three groups of English language speakers, non-musicians, musicians, and musicians with absolute pitch (n=24, N=72), were tested for same/different discrimination of Central Thai tone pairs. These were presented in three separate conditions: as speech (on the syllable [ba]), as filtered speech,…

5:11 AM

"今の若い人に多い習慣はお金を使わないということです" - I can't understand に in this sentence

would it help if there was a comma inserted before or after 多い?

I'm confused also because 多い doesn't normally take the prenominal position.

Anonymous

5:33 AM

@Flaw [ 今の若い人に多い ] 習慣は＝　A practice common among young people?

さよう

Anonymous

I don't know why 多い can't take the prenominal position. I think it can

Anonymous

I don't know.

Anonymous

I came across a new (to me) use of に yesterday

Anonymous

It was listing nouns, like と

Anonymous

5:39 AM

I found that in 大辞泉 under 並立助詞. It says 並列・列挙・添加・取り合わせを表す。「バター―チーズ―牛乳」「月―むら雲、花―嵐」

Like for example,
多い人が来た×
多くの人が来た◯

Anonymous

Oh hmm

Anonymous

In this case isn't it like 習慣は、今の若い人に多い

So it isn't directly modifying it

Anonymous

@Flaw Hmm... What other adjectives work like this?

Anonymous

5:50 AM

◯人が多い
×多い人

Anonymous

@Flaw detail.chiebukuro.yahoo.co.jp/qa/question_detail/q1119466121

1:58 PM

これと同じ質問だわhttp://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=2618442

@Chocolate さん, こんにちは

これが。japanese.stackexchange.com/questions/11724/…

@Flaw ちわ～

« first day (685 days earlier) ← previous day next day → last day (4014 days later) »

Transcript for

Apr '1316

Japanese Language

General discussion for japanese.stackexchange.com

japanese language nihongo

join this room
about this room

00:00

06:00

12:00

18:00

all times are UTC

site design / logo © 2024 Stack Exchange Inc; legal

mobile