Japanese Language

Hi snailplane!

Anonymous

"He is running." "He is purple." <-- "running" is behaving like an adjective, just like "purple"

Anonymous

That's right, isn't it? It's been a while since I studied English grammar.

2:34 PM

突出しているトピック is the same construction as 走っている少年, a running boy, so

I think this is why the poster on WR said ~~している in 突出しているトピック was an adjective, but

Anonymous

But the comparison sounds mistaken because 連体形 isn't specific to 〜ている, but in English, present participles are generally "〜ing" words

Anonymous

I suppose I need to read what was said more carefully...

Anonymous

Sorry for responding without reading carefully. ^-^;

いいえ～

Anonymous

Hehe!

Anonymous

2:38 PM

I get confused using English grammatical terms to describe Japanese grammar. ^-^;

Anonymous

In the textbook Japanese: the Spoken Language, the authors call the 〜て form the "gerund form"

Anonymous

That seems really confusing to me. 〜て doesn't seem like a gerund...

The poster on WR writes that ～～している is a present participle and that 突出している is an adjective, so she applies English grammar to Japanese. Do you think this way of explanation is easier for Japanese learners? (btw the asker is Chinese)

Anonymous

The trouble is, I don't know what's easier for other Japanese learners. I only know what is easier for me.

Anonymous

I think that is confusing, personally.

2:42 PM

Ah, yesterday it took me hours to find out the て in a te-form verb is a 接続助詞, a conjunctive verb

Haha.. Alright.. good to know that

Anonymous

Ah! I thought it was a 助動詞

Anonymous

dic.yahoo.co.jp/…

Yes I thought it was a 助動詞, and I read the wiki page,

looking for て

Ohhh

What is the て!?

Oh my Buddha...

I thought the て was this, on the bottom ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/…

I thought I might find て near た or だ as 助動詞, and looked for て on this page, ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/…

Anonymous

Ohh, 大辞林 says it was formed from the 助動詞「つ」 but is now considered a 接続助詞?

I never expected it'd be so hard to find て in て-form, cos it's so familiar to us, we use everyday, and

I don't know what this て is!

Anonymous

2:53 PM

Hehe!

www

We need an expert to help us

Anonymous

I think it's interesting how differently Japanese is taught to foreigners

Anonymous

When I started learning, for example

Anonymous

All I learned was that 行く has a "polite form" 行きます

Anonymous

I didn't learn that it was 行く　→　行き　＋　ます

Anonymous

2:59 PM

I finally found a book on Japanese verbs which explained that there were five forms, and that "auxiliary verbs" like ます get added to them

Anonymous

It didn't say six forms, only five. And "auxiliary verbs" confused me for a long time

Anonymous

I finally asked a question about it: japanese.stackexchange.com/questions/9826/…

Anonymous

Where Dono explained that 助動詞 are "conjugatable particles" rather than "auxiliary verbs"

Anonymous

Now I finally feel like I understand a bit :-)

Anonymous

But I feel like if I had learned that there were 6 forms and that a 助動詞 was a "conjugatable particle" in the beginning, it'd have been easier for me

Anonymous

3:01 PM

「行く」の連用形に助動詞「ます」

Anonymous

hehe

Anonymous

Like, it might have been harder at first, but long-term, I would have been less confused.

5 forms: いか、いき、いく、いけ etc?

Anonymous

Yes, it left out 終止形

Anonymous

I think.

Anonymous

3:04 PM

It's been a long time ^-^;

(1) Simple Present - I write
(2) Simple Future- I will write
(3) Simple Past - I wrote
(4) Present Perfect - I have written
(5) Past Perfect - I had written
(6) Future Perfect - I will have written

What are their Japanese counterparts?

いか-ない、いき-ます、いく-とき、いけ-ば、いこ-う、いっ-た

Anonymous

Oh, 行く was probably a bad example since it's irregular

Anonymous

行った instead of *行いた

Oh... then

はしら-ない, はしり-ます、はしる-とき、はしれ-ば、はしろ-う、はしっ-た

６つだねえ・・・

Anonymous

3:08 PM

Isn't はしっ-た from はしり（連用形）＋助詞「た」＝　はしり-た contracted to はしった

Anonymous

kyorin-u.ac.jp/univ/user/foreign/nikodebu/lectures(PDF)/2-4.pdf

Anonymous

So technically that's only five forms

Anonymous

Except that はしる is two, 終止形 and 連体形

(1) Simple Present - かく、かきます
(2) Simple Future- かくだろう、かくでしょう、かきます、かく
(3) Simple Past - かいた、かきました
(4) Present Perfect - かいた、かきました、かいている
(5) Past Perfect - かいていた？
(6) Future Perfect - かいているだろう・・・?

Ohh, so it's called "五"段活用?

Anonymous

Oh and はしろう is from はしら（未然形）　＋　助動詞「う」, isn't it

Anonymous

3:11 PM

らう　→　ろう in modern Japanese

Oh yes

Anonymous

I remember learned that it's called 五段 because there are five "surface forms" (-a -i -u -e -o) and six "underlying forms" (未然形・連用形・終止形・連体形・仮定形・命令形)

Anonymous

So it used to be 四段 because there were only four surface forms, even though there were six underlying forms...

Anonymous

until -au changed to -ou

Anonymous

Hopefully I'm remembering correctly ^-^;

3:14 PM

ね-ない、ね-ます、ねる-とき、ねれ-ば、ね-よう、ね-ろ ?
simpler...

Anonymous

Ah! 一段 :-D

Oh then, in archaic Japanese we didn't have ５段?

I forgot all about 古典www

Anonymous

The 四段動詞 became the 五段動詞 because of that sound change

Anonymous

See ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%9B%9B%E6%AE%B5%E5%8B%95%E8%A9%9E

Ahhh I see...

There's no「およごう」..

Anonymous

3:17 PM

It would have been およがう I think?

さあ、いかう！ええ、いきませう! ←こんなかんじ

Anonymous

Hehe! I'm not very good at 古語・古典 or whatever you call it xD

よまう！よみませう！とか？いざよまん、とかも

Anonymous

蜘蛛が壁に…　T_T

ころしませうか？

Anonymous

3:22 PM

Hehehe

掃除機で､吸いませうか？

出て行ってもらいませう。

I can't change もらおう to archaic

もらわん, maybe

Anonymous

It used to be もらふ, right? so, ハ行

I found that spiders are bigger here than they are in Japan

もらふ, ah

でていってもらひましたか？

Anonymous

I went to Southern California once and the bugs were all really huge. T_T

こわひです

(こわひ might be wrong)

Anonymous

3:26 PM

Hehe, the dictionary says it was こはい

Ahh I see wwww

Anonymous

Would that be... こはし

むつかしき・・・

いと、かたし？

Anonymous

Hehe! I haven't really studied Classical Japanese yet. I learned a little

Anonymous

But I'm still trying to understand Modern Japanese :-)

Anonymous

3:31 PM

It's fun, though.

Anonymous

たのし? Hehe.

Yes we often use ~でござる etc. to sound funny

Anonymous

Hehe! Do people say 拙者 jokingly?

(こわひ is wrong, yes...it sounds strangely funny)

せっしゃ.. I almost forgot ahaha

Anonymous

Oh, is it weird if I write that in kanji? Hehe

3:38 PM

In manzai, I think I hear that. 例）ギター侍

Anonymous

My study buddy was just complaining that it's hard for us to know when to use kana or to use kanji

拙者 should be written in kanji,

（でも私は漢字で書けないかも）

（読めるけど書けない）

(あほ)

Anonymous

I tried to watch manzai before, but it went over my head ^-^;

Anonymous

I can't understand fast enough.

Yes, they speak so fast. and many of them use kansai ben

Anonymous

3:41 PM

I only know a little bit of kansai ben.

Anonymous

I know や and わ!

Oh~

and kansai jin tend to speak faster than tokyo jin, no?

especially Osaka jin are.. always hurried and impatient..

せっかち, we often describe them.

Anonymous

Ooh, I didn't know that word.

「せっかち」は・・関西弁かなぁ・・？？

Anonymous

大辞林 says it's from 「急き勝ち」. I only learned 急ぐ, not 急く

Anonymous

3:48 PM

せきかち

Ohh いそぎがち？

No, せき+かち, ohh

Anonymous

I never learned the reading せ・き though ^-^;

せく to mean いそぐ、、、　yes

Anonymous

Hehe, it's always funny when I learn a new reading for an "easy" kanji.

I thought せく was kansai ben..

Anonymous

3:50 PM

Oh, is it?

Anonymous

The dictionary lists it but it doesn't say whether it's kansai-ben.

Anonymous

There's a usage note about いそぐ versus せく on 大辞林 dic.yahoo.co.jp/…

Anonymous

せっかち and せく, two new words! :-)

Maybe it's not kansai ben... I just thought so, because many people I know from Osaka use it so often, especially older people. My parents are from Kanto, and they never use it.

Ohh, 気がせく、yes my mom also uses せく when she says 気がせく。。

Ah, せかさないで! is quite common too. It may be like "Don't rush me" ?

Anonymous

Hehe! I'm taking notes.

4:00 PM

Copypasted off http://www.englishclub.com/grammar/verb-tenses_future-perfect.htm
The future perfect tense expresses action in the future before another action in the future. This is the past in the future.
For example:
The train will leave the station at 9am. You will arrive at the station at 9.15am. When you arrive, the train will have left.

せく itself is not kansai ben, but some usages of せく are used only in kansai.. 難しいねぇ・・

Anonymous

Oh really?

Anonymous

@Flaw I don't think there's a one-to-one correspondence between English and Japanese tense/aspect

駅に着くと、電車がもう行った

いそぎません(there's no rush)＞＞if you say せきません, it sounds like Osakaben

4:03 PM

I'm trying to map them without a one-to-one

Anonymous

Oh, I see

Looks like た's role is more about aspect than about tense.

Anonymous

I probably shouldn't try to speak Osaka-ben, right? :-)

Hmm Osaka-ben is not very cute (to me)... ^^;

Thanks for the discussion. I'm going to bed. Long day tomorrow

4:07 PM

Thank you for いろいろ教えてくれました

Good night^^

おやすみなさい～

Anonymous

Rest well!

Anonymous

dainichi just mentioned the "tense vs aspect" question about た in this answer: japanese.stackexchange.com/a/11129/1478

"My homework is due next week. I will have finished it by Sunday"
「日曜には宿題を終えているでしょう」>> 「いるでしょう」「いるだろう」(rather than just「終えるだろう」「終えるでしょう」)

した in 可視化したもの... He writes "it might be worth a separate question" これは難しい質問なのですね～きっと

Anonymous

I never thought about it being past tense. I just thought of it as an adjective ^-^;

Anonymous

4:16 PM

I guess the "perfective aspect" explanation is better.

Anonymous

"Adjective" is probably just me being confused.

perfective aspect.. 文法書が要る・・・^^

I didn't even bring my Japanese dictionary here. orz

Anonymous

Perfective aspect is whether an action is "complete" or not.

Anonymous

I should say... "Perfective aspect means an action is completed."

Anonymous

It doesn't mean that it's in the past, present, or future

Anonymous

4:21 PM

Past perfect = completed in the past

Anonymous

Future perfect = completed in the future

Ahh ok, (I learned 相 as aspect but almost forgot)

Anonymous

In English, a lot of people say "tense" when they really mean "aspect"

Oh really~

相,時制...

Anonymous

Yeah, people know the word "tense" but they don't know "aspect" or "mood"

4:23 PM

mood, 法、ですね

Anonymous

Umm, I don't know. :-D

仮定法とかsubjunctiveとか

Anonymous

I barely know it in English.

Anonymous

Yeah, that

Anonymous

"Subjunctive mood" is correct, but you hear people say "subjunctive tense"

Anonymous

4:24 PM

And instead of "passive voice", people say "passive tense"

Anonymous

Actually, people use "tense" for just about everything ... xD

Ohh I've never heard "subjunctive tense"

"passive tense" neither

I see.. good to know

haha

Anonymous

If you search for "passive tense" on Google, it says there are about 80,000 hits.

８万・・・悩む数だなあ

Anonymous

仮定法 = 仮定形　＋　「ば」?

4:27 PM

でしたよね・・・たしか

Anonymous

Oh, I don't know any Japanese terms for English grammar

Anonymous

English grammar is weird.

Anonymous

I signed up for English Language Learners ell.stackexchange.com

「走れば」. But we also have 走ったら、走るなら、走るならば...

Anonymous

I'm finding it's difficult to explain English grammar sometimes. ^-^;

Anonymous

4:29 PM

I've only answered one question.

Anonymous

I don't remember the difference between ば・ったら・なら・ならば

Anonymous

I've got more than one book that explains the difference

Someone learning Japanese asked a Japanese actress "What's the difference between たら and れば"

Anonymous

But I never remember ^-^;

And she replied,

"たら is cod, れば is liver "

The student laughed and said, "もういいです"

Anonymous

4:31 PM

Hehe!

Anonymous

鱈 and リバー? :-)

Yes

Anonymous

I only recently learned 鱈.

Anonymous

I watched an episode of the new アイアン・シェフ show and they used that kanji a lot.

へ～鉄のシェフ

Anonymous

4:33 PM

アイアンシェフ is a new show based on 料理の鉄人

Anonymous

It just started last year!:)

Anonymous

I've been using it for listening practice.

あ、料理の鉄人！

Anonymous

Sometimes they talk really fast on that show. ^-^;

Anonymous

I don't know what shows to watch.

4:35 PM

ですよね～料理は時間が大事らしい・・

ニュース・・・？(つまらない！w)

Anonymous

Hehe!

Anonymous

I don't usually watch TV in English. It never occurred to me to watch the news

Anonymous

I watched a show called ごくせん that I liked

仲間幸恵！^^

Anonymous

And there was a funny one about a Japanese teacher named 日本人の知らない日本語

4:37 PM

OHHH I saw it on TV and Youtube too

おもしろいですよね・・生徒の日本語が、上手すぎる。。。

Anonymous

Hehe! My Japanese is still not too good... I should practice more.

Anonymous

I haven't posted to Lang-8 in months ^-^;

仲間幸恵の「TRICKトリック」も、面白かったです。(But I can't find it on YouTube)

Anonymous

Is this it? dailymotion.com/video/xqghq1_trick-01_fun

aaaa koredesu

dailymotionにはあるんだww

おおおしかも英語の字幕ついてる！

5:22 PM

I'll try to post something on Lang-8...maybe later.. if I have time

Anonymous

Yay

Anonymous

I want to get a Casio EX-Word

Anonymous

My friend just got one and I'm jealous :-)

5:45 PM

They are handy... but pricy

Anyone else want to take a crack at fixing this title? japanese.stackexchange.com/questions/11127

Anonymous

Maybe it could be broken into two questions, and the second question could ask about perfect aspect vs past tense like dainichi suggested in his answer

Anonymous

It's hard to come up with a good title for it because it has two unrelated questions

Anonymous

@jkerian They are pricy. I'm sure I'd use it a lot, but I don't know if it's really worth it for me personally. I could offset it by selling some of the dictionaries it includes that I have in paper form, but not by a lot, and I'm not sure I want to part with them.

Anonymous

It's got that "ooh, it's so cool!" factor clouding my judgment right now :-)

Given that the second question is the one that was answered in the accepted answer (and therefore the useful one to someone searching for answers), it would probably be best to ignore question 1 when re-titling

@snailplane: I've noticed you've been updating the glossary. I should perhaps mention that the messiest part of that thing so far is that we don't make any distinction between properties which hold for a verb in all forms (such as "punctual", which restrict what conjugations mean), and properties which only apply to a particular instance of a verb, or a particular conjugation.

Troyen

6:30 PM

@snailplane I might've submitted a little too early on that edit

I don't like the title on japanese.stackexchange.com/questions/9677/… (and I don't think that's a metaphorical usage), but I'm struggling to come up with a replacement

Anonymous

@Troyen It looked okay to me!

Anonymous

By the way, you're only 30 reputation away from being able to edit without reviews

Troyen

6:46 PM

I know, slow and grueling!

I think it'd be better without all the metaphor stuff period, since it's not really relevant

especially that title

So, on this community evaluation, are we comparing questions to other resources on the internet in Japanese, English, or both?

Anonymous

Ahh, I just heard 平凡 as へいぼう

Anonymous

I seem to make that sort of mistake fairly often.

Anonymous

A couple weeks ago I heard 戦線 as せんせい

7:35 PM

community evaluation?

@snailplane hmm? where would the 'sei' come from?

just getting tonguetied?

Anonymous

I fail to hear the nasal sound and it turns into a long vowel, like せん　=　せい