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12:48 PM

I honestly think both stances are quite reasonable to hold, but moreover it's probably not actually meaningful or necessary to enter into.

"The ability doesn't have shroud" is quite enough on its own.

We can't talk about how shroud handles being on abilities all that meaningfully because it's not a scenario the rules consider because it's an impossible state to reach.

TheThirdMan

hey doppelgreener, are you here?

doppelgreener

If that ever became possible, we'd see the rules be adjusted.

@TheThirdMan Hi! I am.

(It's quite good to point out that creature spells for cards with shroud can still be targeted and countered, though.)

TheThirdMan

since you put hands on my answer, i figured i'd just ask you really quick about something... i'd add what type of effect platinum angel's ability is, but i don't have the name ready. i know it's not a replacement effect, but something that's simply true... but i don't know what that's called in MTG rules slang off the top of my head

diego

@TheThirdMan Static ability

TheThirdMan

hm, is that it? i mean, that's the type of ability compared to a keyword/triggered/activated one, but the effect it has is something different

very much like laboratory maniac's ability is also a static one, however creating a replacement effect

if that's at all understandable :)

doppelgreener

12:54 PM

that's understandable, but it is a static ability

it just prevents a thing from happening, so it doesn't happen

diego

604.1. Static abilities do something all the time rather than being activated or triggered. They are written as statements, and they’re simply true.

TheThirdMan

hm, alright then... i remembered that wrong then. thanks!

doppelgreener

we know it's not a replacement effect because it doesn't use the word "instead" which is their hallmark: "If X would win the game, instead nothing happens." would be a replacement effect.

diego

@TheThirdMan Actually looking a the next rules I think you ware looking for 'continuous effects'

604.2. Static abilities create continuous effects, some of which are prevention effects or replacement effects. These effects are active as long as the permanent with the ability remains on the battlefield and has the ability, or as long as the object with the ability remains in the appropriate zone, as described in rule 112.6.

doppelgreener

that works ^

i think what's going on isn't that the Angel replaces "you win" with "nothing happens"; instead, we follow the rules that "you do as much as is possible, and don't do what is impossible" (can't remember which rule number that is). You draw a card, and thanks to Laboratory Maniac, an effect tries to make you win, but you can't, and so you simply don't do that.

TheThirdMan

12:57 PM

ah, that's it indeed, thanks!

yeah, if it were a replacement effect, the whole thing would play out different anyway (with the player that controls the Maniac winning the game on the spot)

diego

609.3. If an effect attempts to do something impossible, it does only as much as possible.

TheThirdMan

doppelgreener: if you're pointing towards the way i formatted that in my answer, i also thought that it was slightly ambiguous. however, it seems to be the best way to describe what happens

@diego: there are replacement effects that don't use "instead" though, no? i though "enters the battlefield with X counters" was a replacement effect as well

diego

@TheThirdMan There are a few that don't use 'instead'

doppelgreener

@TheThirdMan yes, i feel the same way, it is a very good way to describe what happens, and the people who'd care whether that's truly exactly what happens probably would recognise already what really happens.

(because those people would be tournament-level players)

@TheThirdMan yeah, that's a good point, i hadn't realised that -- timestamp order would determine winning vs nothing happening.

TheThirdMan

i was thinking multiple replacement effects applying to the same event, having the affected player choose which one applies

diego

1:04 PM

Most have to do with entering the battlefield a certain way (tapped, transformed, with counters, etc.). There are also some for some turning objects face up and skipping things

@doppelgreener Timestamps doesn't apply to replacement effects

TheThirdMan

and since the affected player is always the one drawing the card, they could always choose that the maniac's would apply

yep

doppelgreener

@diego oh. right. poop.

1 hour later…

Rainbolt

2:32 PM

I see delete votes on the wrong answers to this question. I doubt whomever cast them will see this, but wrong answers are valuable too, and shouldn't always be deleted.

doppelgreener

@Rainbolt Thanks for that link. The question's old enough it could've even been me who cast those delete votes.

2 hours later…

doppelgreener

4:53 PM

Wow. The new Gideon has a +0 Platinum Angel effect at 3 CMC:

> Gideon of the Trials
1WW
Planeswalker - Gideon
[+1]: Until your next turn, prevent all damage target permanent would deal.

[0]: Until end of turn, Gideon of the Trials becomes a 4/4 Human Soldier creature with indestructible that's still a planeswalker. Prevent all damage that would be dealt to him this turn.

[0]: You get an emblem with "As long as you control a Gideon planeswalker, you can't lose the game and your opponents can't win the game."

murgatroid99

Somehow, when I first saw this, I didn't realize that the last ability was a +0 ability

doppelgreener

That said, electing to use the +0 right away means you leave your Gideon vulnerable to being taken out fairly cheaply by any 3-damage card, e.g. Collective Defiance (3CMC), Incendiary Flow (2CMC), or Fiery Temper (1CMC via madness, 3CMC otherwise).

There's also the new Trial of Zeal, which is a 3CMC 3-damage spell.

murgatroid99

5:35 PM

You don't need to use it immediately. You can just +1 for a while, and use the +0 when you're about to die