The line that shall not be crossed

terdon

16:46

@Zanna #firstworldproblems

Zanna

@terdon Heh I think Teju Cole wrote a great essay about how that phrase is pretty offensive to some folks

Kaz Wolfe

@Zanna Shall I write an essay on how assuming things are offensive to people is also offensive to some people?

terdon

@Zanna Why? Because it presupposes a distinction between "first" and the rest of the world?

Hell, I live in Greece and that only counts as "first" as a courtesy to some dead-for-three-thousand-years white dudes.

Zanna

@terdon hmm I don't want to speak for him, it was a really good essay and I will see if I can find it.

terdon

@Zanna Fair enough.

Kaz Wolfe

16:54

We as a culture really need to stop getting offended over tiny things. This SJW movement is getting too out-of-hand when my walking is offensive to people.

Zanna

Ah it's a storify storify.com/flashboy/third-world-problems

Kaz Wolfe

(Note I'm not saying that it's bad, and yes there are civil rights issues and whatnot, but it's just going too damn far.)

Zanna

@KazWolfe dude, seriously... think about it... who is this "we"?

arda

@KazWolfe I can't promise about that.

Zanna

@KazWolfe um... for who? :(

Kaz Wolfe

16:56

@Zanna Basically all of American culture who is uptight about civil rights issues that only exist so people can feel good about defending some "oppressed" subset of two people.

arda

oh boy nope I'm not going to argue

welp here we go

Zanna

@KazWolfe so everything is ok and we should just get over it? :S

terdon

@Zanna Uhm. That does seem a tad oversensitive to me. Nobody said that Nigerians can't have issues with their blackberries, but I am not about to compare those with having trouble finding food for your child. Fact is, the term #firstworldproblems has come to mean all the crap we put too much importance on. Calling the developed world countries "first" is indeed laden and something I try to avoid. Using the hashtag to lampoon precisely that attitude seems fine to me.

Kaz Wolfe

@Zanna I just said that there are very real civil rights issues that need resolution. But when I'm being yelled at to "check my privilege" just because I'm a caucasian male, that, too, gets offensive. You can't solve racism and sexism with more racism and sexism.

arda

I live in Turkey and every kind of minority is getting harassed, and I do my best to reduce xenophobia, homophobia and misogyny in this culture, and well, by definition, I fit in that "sjw" thingy. And guess what? I'm happy of the effects I've caused. The people who call me SJWs are the ones that keep being misogynists or xenophobics, but the people I've been trying to help have been expressing themselves much easier lately, imo.
I don't go crazy over minor stuff, but maybe I do, what is a minor thing? Define it.

terdon

17:02

@KazWolfe @Zanna there is a golden line. Yes, there are some people who have taken the very valid idea of political correctness too far. That doesn't mean that—while they may have dialed it to 11—we shouldn't dial it to 9 or 10. Any extreme is bad, including extremes attempting to protect from extremes.

Kaz Wolfe

Or when I'm told that my ability to walk is offensive to some handicapped... I personally consider that too far. (This has happened twice now, particularly by protestors who were standing, walking, and chanting)

Zanna

Well, I thought exactly the same until I read what he said. Putting aside whether first/third are ok to say (I'm not too bothered by them, I kind of prefer them to develop*) I think I read there that the hashtag is heard by third world people as a kind of gloating and also ignorance of what life is like elsewhere...

terdon

@KazWolfe That actually happened?

arda

@terdon +1

Kaz Wolfe

very liberal college.

Or, when students in Berkeley (not my school) aren't allowed to go to class just because they're not a minority.

terdon

17:05

@KazWolfe That's ridiculous.

Kaz Wolfe

That's too far in my mind.

terdon

I spent 5 years living with a paraplegic and can promise you he'd find that absolutely hilarious.

Zanna

@arda +1 :)

And if it's heard that way by those people, then, I don't want to say it, not because I want to be correct, but because I don't wanna do violence and cause harm

terdon

@Zanna Well sure, but I certainly didn't mean it that way. And while we should always take care not to offend, we must draw a line somewhere.

That leads to silliness like that American reporter who referred to Nelson Mandela as an "African American".

Sheesh.

Kaz Wolfe

I mean, how ridiculous would it be if I said I was offended by you, @Zanna, because you have more reputation than me?

arda

17:09

Not more ridiculous than me saying that this whole conversation is making me uncomfortable.

terdon

@arda That's not good.

Kaz Wolfe

aaaand we're stopping now.

back to Ubuntu.

arda

yup

@terdon I'm pretty much diagnosed as a so-called sjw, even my psychiatrist told me that I should stop minding others and chill a bit. I really feel like arguing, telling how some people are wrong and what they should do, but I don't want to cause a drama, and am kinda losing my patience, and I really don't want to get to that stage.

terdon

I'm kind of fascinated by this. There are things I do that I know cause offense to some people and I don't care in the least. For example, religious fundamentalists might be offended by my atheism. Racists might be offended if their kid is taught by a black person. Ditto for homophobes and gay teachers. We all choose where to draw the line and say that anyone offended by things beyond that line has nobody to blame but themselves. The problem is that we each draw the line at a different point.

Zanna

@terdon I didn't call it to tell you that you did wrong saying it! Of course you didn't mean it that way at all, I understand what you meant, I believe. But intention is not magic? I was glad I read what Teju said, so that I could stop saying something potentially douchcanoeish

terdon

17:13

@arda Fair enough.

@Zanna I know you didn't! And I'm glad I read it too, I just don't happen to agree with it 100%. It's that line I mention above, and that's a very personal thing. We're still, as a society, trying to find lines that at least a majority will find acceptable.

Zanna

Well, this room is pretty international, so I guess the society in question is everyone everywhere and that's why I wanted to share that. And I've said what I wanted to say so I can sleep in peace anyway, I guess

terdon

← 46 messages moved from Ask Ubuntu General Room

← 1 message moved from Ask Ubuntu General Room

@Zanna Please don't think I was dismissing you. You are intelligent and articulate so I very much enjoy discussing this sort of thing with you. From what I've gathered, you tend to hold similar views to my own, just more pronounced. Interesting arguments are among my favorite passtimes, that's why I keep bugging you about this sort of thing.

Zanna

Thanks, I think I ran out of spoons for that discussion for now. If anyone wants my opinion at all, please feel free to ask anything

terdon

Not because I feel you're "wrong" and I'm "right". This sort of thing rarely can be black or white like that.

Zanna

Oops sorry, chat slow on mobile

terdon

17:21

You do agree that we can't always stop doing something because others are offended by it, right?

Zanna

@terdon no worries, I didn't feel dismissed at all, I started to struggle a bit with what Kaz was saying is all

terdon

I mean, I'll be damned if I'll bend over backwards not to offend the sensibilities of some bigoted idiot.

Zanna

Hmm yeah. It depends on the context and what offended really means I think

terdon

The interesting question, for me, is whether we can decide on a common set of limits or not. There will always be people who are offended by things that are innocuous to you.

For example, I'm sure there are parents who might be offended by the idea of your teaching their kids. A woman! Teaching! With painted hair!

I also expect your reaction to that would be to raise a mental middle finger and ignore them.

I guess the issue is that no matter how innocuous I find something, there's bound to be someone, somewhere who finds it offensive. And, conversely, I'm sure that many things I find deeply offensive, someone else will find completely innocuous. There is no objective measure of offense.

Zanna

For me it seems reasonably clear, it is about existing oppression.

I don't think those sexist parents' feeling about me teaching their kids has the same status as my hypothhetical feeling there of being dismissed because of my gender - that has a history and it's part of a structure of inequality that makes my life already harder in various ways

I think insofar as I can decide who is actually oppressed along some axis, I can decide whether I need to stfu and listen to what they are telling me "offends" them...

terdon

17:32

Well yes, but that's just it. Based on your ethics and world view, it's quite clear. However, there are actually people who honestly believe that "The gays are taking over the world and will turn my kid into one of them and us normal folks are being oppressed"/.

Is that patently absurd? Yes, of course. To me.

Zanna

As far as what you are saying goes I agree with it, and I probably not even that careful about offending people in the normal way and I am very unlikely to call someone on something that offends me in a personal way... if that makes any sense

terdon

Not, however, to them.

Zanna

Yeah I'm not very patient with those people

Maybe I should be more patient.

terdon

Ditto for the whole idiotic "Male oppression" movement or whatever it's called. You know, those people who feel that men are being oppressed. I think they've got their heads so far up their posteriors, they can scratch their tonsils, but how can I impose my view? Why is mine more valid than theirs?

Jacob Vlijm

I probably missed the origin of the discussion, but I am nearly unable to feel offended until someone finds his or her truth to be the absolute truth, including mine.

Zanna

17:34

I'm walking Along the street in the dark and it's started raining so I better reply later

terdon

@Zanna Not what I'm saying :) I've got more of a "screw you" attitude when it comes to people whose opinions I can't help but consider moronic. Still, on a philosophical level, I must accept that they have as much right to them as I do to mine.

@Zanna #Britishproblems :P

Zanna

@terdon yeah they are really virulently sexist imho

terdon

@JacobVlijm Yeah, that one's always offensive.

Zanna

@terdon yep!

terdon

@Zanna Indeed. But the fact remains that they feel offended by things that you or I would find innocuous. So if we agree that we don't care enough about their feeling to even try not to offend them. Or even, in this case, feel that offending them is our social duty since they might learn something and get over themselves. If we agree to that, this means that we are ignoring someone's feeling of offense.

So, that in turn means that there is no absolute value here. We all make choices and draw a line beyond which we no longer give a hoot about causing offense.

All this to say that what is and is not offensive is just about impossible to define.

(I've been on an objective vs relative morality trip these past few days)

Zanna

17:55

Yeah I don't like to harm anyone, but like you say, sometimes I feel like intervention is a good thing even if it does upset someone. I think it is about the wider effect as well as the emotion in the moment and I'm not very good at philosophy but I think that given the context, then I can usually decide. At work now :( will follow up later if I can think of anything clear to say

Zanna

21:33

@terdon so having had a chance to get my thoughts together a little bit I think I made a catastrophic error using the word "offensive", which evidently has the magic power of causing white guys (I am unequivocally NOT talking about you here) who would prefer their white-guyness not to become visible as a subject position but to remain the uncontested universal to pull out their imaginary reverse racism sticks and beat me over the head with them.

Having read Teju's tweets again I'm pretty sure he was not saying it is offensive in the way we were (imho rather ineffectually) discussing, or rather its offensiveness to him personally is hardly the most salient thing there. In his words, he is making an intervention, and he is putting his head above the parapet to teach, when really we should be teaching ourselves.

I know the content of what he said is not really at issue here, but to attempt to grab a quick takeaway from it anyway, he was saying I think that the typical (white) "first world" person has a distorted view of life in "third world" countries and our ignorance is a tool that helps to maintain the relations of domination (various forms of plundering and exploitation, etc)

by enforcing human/social distance and more importantly by obscuring the history of those relations (ie: it is our fault but we are not taught that)

terdon

@Zanna Oh, sure. No argument there.

Zanna

Looking at it using Teju's word "intervention" instead of my mistaken word "offensive" we can see that it is really much bigger than him telling us how not to be a douchecanoe in a conversation in mixed company, but hoping to change the world a little bit.

terdon

@Zanna And certainly no argument there.

Zanna

He is calling us out on our ignorance, which is showing in the use of that phrase, not saying that these words hurt him. Rather, they are the product of a larger situation that affects him and his countryfolk and others worldwide, and, heard by him, those words add insult to injury.

For me this is not the same, and is easily distinguishable, from Kaz's hypothetical claim that my rep offends him, or the offense some people take to expletives, or the "offense" you mentioned someone might feel about a woman teaching their kids (in the UK they would find it pretty hard to avoid that happening... we are a strong majority in the profession in primary schools at least).

I don't think people will be all that bothered if we (white people in rich countries) keep repeating that hashtag, probably it doesn't sound that terrible. But I like to try to explain what is possibly awry in that phrase, which from some significant points of view doesn't sound so much like the self-trivialising and sympathy intended,

but more like "wow I'm so glad I live in this superior place where I don't have to worry about anything serious" or whatever, not so that we can all be "correct" in some empty legalistic way, but so that we can think more empathically about what's wrong with a world where some folks are believed to have problems that really matter because of where they live?

oops that was a lot of text! If there are any stray :w in there please try not to hold it against me ;)

Zanna

21:48

hmm I still didn't say anything useful though. oh well...

terdon

@Zanna Heh, that's how philosophical musings are!

Zanna

guess so :/

terdon

22:04

Sorry, it's my turn to not be able to engage. It's 12am here and I only just stopped working. I'm beat and not up to philosophising any more today.

Zanna

oh I should have said I wasn't expecting a reply, I was really just adding that because I failed utterly to do justice to Teju earlier :( I actually thought you'd already have gone to bed when I started typing. Was more for my own peace of mind to finish. No need to say more, and sorry for not getting anywhere helpful with it

Zanna

22:37

@terdon thanks for that!

Zanna

23:33

Oops sorry for unnecessary ping. I didn't check what that was pointing to until reread and kind of extra grateful for that agreement, maybe I will do better at addressing that next time :S (I have a great Aamer Rahman video up my sleeve somewhere)

Transcript for

The line that shall not be crossed