V'dibarta Bam

@Charlie The main thing is to try to be prepared for the material as best as you can, and take the test calmly, trusting that the One Above will arrange an appropriate outcome.

@Charlie Anyway, I apologize for chatting so long and keeping you from your studies. Hopefully you're ready to get back to the material?

Charlie

12:26 AM

@Fred don't need to appologize, I appreciate :)

Fred

@Charlie Ok, then. Do well and have a happy birthday!

Charlie

@Fred Thank you a lot, Fred

Fred

@Charlie It was nice talking with you.

Charlie

@Fred It was nice talking to you too, Freddie

@Fred do you allow me to ask you where are you from?

Fred

@Charlie West of the Mississippi... far west.

Double AA

12:32 AM

@Fred The west bank :)

Fred

@DoubleAA Not presently.

Charlie

@Fred oh, interesting! I've heard of hurricanes, more to west, no?

Fred

@Charlie I'm farther to the west.

Charlie

@Fred no damages, then?

Double AA

@Charlie Hurricanes (and other large tropical storms) tend to form over warm ocean water and move west, so they end up hitting the eastern coasts of landmasses.

Fred

12:35 AM

@Charlie Are you thinking of the recent tornadoes?

Charlie

@Fred yes, yes, forgive me, precisely that

Fred

@Charlie I'm still farther to the west. Thankfully, no damages or tornadoes in these parts.

Double AA

@Charlie There are often tornadoes in the central United States

Tornado Alley

Tornado Alley is a colloquial term for the area of the United States where tornadoes are most frequent. Although an official location is not defined, the areas in between the Rocky Mountains and Appalachian Mountains are the areas usually associated with it. Tornado geography Though no state is entirely free of tornadoes, they occur more frequently in the plains between the Rocky Mountains and Appalachian Mountains. According to the storm events database of the National Climatic Data Center, Texas reports more tornadoes than any other state, though the very large land area should be...

Charlie

@Fred Good!

@DoubleAA interesting

Fred

That was a monstrous one yesterday. The death toll is above 90.

Charlie

12:43 AM

Ow... I saw the destruction it caused

Fred

(Actually, that might be an exaggerated preliminary number, but the death toll was still high).

@DoubleAA I would be terrified to live in Tornado Alley.

@DoubleAA At least there might be an opportunity to recite a b'racha while running for one's life.

Double AA

@Fred and the east coast has hurricanes and the west coast has earthquakes

@Fred No question you could say the bracha. You can probably say it on non-life threatening winds too.

@Fred Also, don't try to outrun a tornado. Try and get into a basement.

Fred

@DoubleAA If you don't live near a major active fault, it's not too bad.

@DoubleAA I meant running towards a basement... or some other shelter as the case may be (e.g. people on the roads).

Double AA

@Fred A dweller of tornado alley has just joined our midst.

Charlie

hi @IsaacMoses

Fred

12:53 AM

@IsaacMoses Do you have an alert system for tornadoes in St. Louis?

Double AA

@Fred stlouisco.com/lawandpublicsafety/emergencymanagement/…

msh210

2:35 AM

@Fred I don't remember my number-theory course, but there are one or two proofs of the irrationality of the sqrt of a prime that are basic enough to serve as examples of math proofs for laymen. Also Euclid's proof of the infinitude of the primes.

And msh210's proof of Goldbach's conjecture, of course.

Fred

2:55 AM

@msh210 I've got to see that last one.

Isaac Moses

3:10 AM

@msh210 Did you hear about this recent story of the guy with the twin primes?

@jake :)

@mathematicians (@msh210 @fred @charlie) wired.com/wiredscience/2013/05/twin-primes

Fred

@IsaacMoses Cool!

Isaac Moses

@DoubleAA B"H I've never been directly affected by tornado, but I did have to wait out a couple of hours in my office's bottom floor once. I've only been here on the prairie for less than three years

Isaac Moses

3:25 AM

Yeyasher Kochacha to not-vram on recently earning the all-too-uncommon Announcer badge!

Double AA

3:47 AM

@Fred @msh210 Did you know Alfred Tarski was born Alfred Teitelbaum??

msh210

@IsaacMoses No. Neat!

@DoubleAA I may have. Counter-question: Do you know an anagram of Banach-Tarski? Oh, nevermind.

Double AA

@msh210 Banach-Tarski-Banach-Tarski

or Banach-Tarski-Banach-Tarski-Banach-Tarski-Banach-Tarski I suppose.

Isaac Moses

4:04 AM

@msh210 you should ask brain chat instead

As long as you're not afraid to bias chat rank

Double AA

4:17 AM

@IsaacMoses It's a well known math joke.

(well known in certain circles I suppose)

unless I'm missing a joke about brain chat (?) and chat rank

Fred

4:51 AM

@DoubleAA When I was first introduced to Banach-Tarski, I started imagining implications for technology 1000 years down the road - perpertual motion machines, etc.

Isaac Moses

5:02 AM

@DoubleAA loci in which I am not one of the points

@DoubleAA ... but yes. You are missing the degree to which I expressed ignorance of the purpose of the question

@DoubleAA, and if, as it seems, "@mathematicians" should have included @doubleaa as well, I apologize for the oversight

Isaac Moses

2:38 PM

8

A: What to do about plagiarism?

First off, thanks to all of you who've been flagging plagiarized answers. It is very important to the future of this site that answers which draw on the writings of others attribute them properly. I've just warned a third user about this, and frankly seeing so much copying on a site this young ...

^^ Islam's version of meta.judaism.stackexchange.com/a/76/2

Double AA

4:29 PM

@IsaacMoses They might be interested in that post.

msh210

I usually don't care about votes on my posts. But sometimes I try to craft a well-written and -sourced post and it gets no votes and I wonder why: is my writing unclear? is the post too esotric? too obvious? This is one of those. Does anyone have any suggestions/comments on it? I'd hate to get no answer just because the question is unclear somehow.

msh210

4:45 PM

May 14 at 0:40, by jake

I'm not sure if this is the right forum for such a thing, but I would like to announce to the Mi Yodeya community that I will soon be getting married! The wedding is to take place on May 22 in Toronto, Ontario. Any Torontonian Yodeyans (or non-Torontonians, for that matter) are invited to come share in the simcha and introduce themselves. (If anyone's interested, I can provide the details.)

Oh, drat, NYC has (unsurprisingly) surpassed J-m.

Seth J

4:59 PM

@msh210 and @DoubleAA, thoughts on my answer?

0

A: What (if anything) does tosafot on Succah 46b teach about sitting in the sukkah in Israel on shmini arzeret?

First the background: The Gemara is discussing the permissibility of eating an Ethrog that has been used for the Mitzvah. If someone buys 7 Ethrogim, one for each day, there are two opinions: one says that you can eat each day's Ethrog immediately after using it for the Mitzvah, and one says tha...

I think it actually bolsters the question (and explains it a lot better).

I'm thinking I should gut most of the question, which is very confusing, and stick my background and translation into it.

Because now that I've gone through Tos. I finally get what he's asking. I thought he was totally misunderstanding the context before, but now I think the question is spot on.

msh210

@SethJ Not having read the tosafos, I could not make heads or tails of the question. (And that's not a good thing.)

Isaac Moses

@msh210 I already upvoted.

msh210

@IsaacMoses Thanks... though that doesn't really answer my question here.

Isaac Moses

@msh210 ... and I honestly can't see any significant room for improvement. Could be that just not too many people who've been on recently are sufficiently interested in the topic to click through, read, and vote

msh210

@IsaacMoses (That question's been bothering me a while, actually. It's not practically relevant to me, as whenever I borrow a talis it's under conditions that I'd say a b'racha on it. But the question must come up pretty often in some shuls.)

@IsaacMoses okay, thanks.

Isaac Moses

5:08 PM

@msh210 If you rewrite the question to be about a woman dealing with such a situation, it'll probably get a bit more attention.

msh210

@IsaacMoses :-)

@SethJ You mean you get what smu is asking?

Double AA

@SethJ You should see the Ritva. He has Ameimar show up in the Gemara and say teshi'i safek shmini is also assur

@msh210 Perhaps explain why you make those suggestions instead of just listing all possible permutations. Why would one think not to say a bracha at all? Why would one think to say a bracha on the tallit gadol, when you assumed in the question that it is exempt from a bracha (not all achronim hold that way, but you assumed that way)?

msh210

@DoubleAA hm, okay, thanks.

Yeah, good idea.

Double AA

@msh210 Questions on very specific texts are often opaque to those who haven't read them. Someone who hasn't read that tosfot or isn't capable of reading it pretty quickly is probably not so interested in a technical detail about some diyuk in it.

Isaac Moses

@msh210 ... but seriously, I think the phrase to keep in mind is "long tail." Topics that are not already on many people's minds and that are not inherently eye-catching can tend to take longer to amass hits and votes. They do, though, over time. And given the timelessness of the issues at hand, that's fine.

Seth J

5:15 PM

@DoubleAA It's a pretty obvious Diyuk. I'll have to look at the Ritva. But what's he rejecting exactly? Nevermind, I'll have to see it inside.

msh210

@DoubleAA True, but someone capable of reading it, or capable of understanding it if the relevant part is pasted in, will skip it if the question is not arresting.

Isaac Moses

@msh210 Replacing "benediction" with "b'racha" (as in your title) or "blessing" might make the question more inviting-looking to some

msh210

@IsaacMoses hm, okay. Thanks

Seth J

@msh210 Tos kind of out of the blue suggests that in E"Y you eat in the Sukkah on S"'A. Like, totally unprompted. I think smu's question is, "Where did that come from? Or is that what he's really saying?"

msh210

@SethJ I did not understand that from smu's question. Part of the problem may be that I choked on his tranlsiteration (what's a shvak?) and so skipped it.

Seth J

5:18 PM

@msh210 No, neither did I. But I think I could gut the question and make it read that way - and include my translation and background.

msh210

@SethJ By all means, please do, if you think that was his intent!

Seth J

@msh210 shvak=safek. Bad, bad transliteration.

@msh210 OK. Because it would be a "radical change". I just think it's radical enough to make a bad question a good one.

msh210

@SethJ So maybe leave him a comment on the Q (so he gets pinged) about the edit.

Double AA

Happy comment I received today:

Just to clairfy I do not and will not have יאוש on Alex's account: ואף אל פי שיתמהמה עם כל זה אחכה לו! — Double AA Sep 6 '12 at 0:12

Ping @DoubleAA. May Hashem send us Moshiach without any further שיתמהמה! — Alex 4 hours ago

msh210

@msh210 @SethJ ...unless your version answers his question.

msh210

5:42 PM

@IsaacMoses Thanks for your formatting edit; looks better that way.

Double AA

@IsaacMoses The ruling should be exactly the same.

msh210

@DoubleAA ...for Ashk'nazim, if one leaves aside issues of yuhara.

Fred

:9554104 That was a radical edit! It basically assumes your own answer and asks a new question.

Seth J

@Fred, regarding your question, I assumed the former, but if you believe I'm mistaken, let me know in chat. I'm deleting this answer now that I've edited the question.

@Fred I don't think so. My answer wasn't an answer.

Fred

@SethJ You incorporated that reading of Tosafos into your answer.

Seth J

5:50 PM

@Fred My answer started as a translation, and then I suddenly got what he was confused about (I hope!).

Fred

@SethJ ...in which you assume that the concern is that one eat in the sukka.

Seth J

@Fred Right, you could be right about the Muktzeh thing.

@Fred But he was asking about eating.

Fred

@SethJ Otherwise it doesn't make sense.

Seth J

@Fred So maybe your reading is the answer.

Fred

@SethJ Since you might eat in the sukka into the end of the eighth day, there could have been reason to think that the muktza status from bein hashemashos extends to the ninth day.

Seth J

5:52 PM

@Fred (It doesn't make much sense, which is why it's confusing, hence the OP's question - I think.)

msh210

@DoubleAA thanks for the edit. Sometimes I'm not good English.

Fred

... but since it doesn't actually extend, there's no reason to forbid the esrog either on the ninth.

Seth J

@Fred I think I remember learning this exactly that way a long, long time ago. Go answer the question.

Double AA

@Fred @SethJ Actually, I think it's lest he come to say a blessing on sitting in the sukkah on the 8th, because he thinks the obligations are the same because the Etrog is still miktza

Wait that didn't make sense. goes to reread

Seth J

@DoubleAA Rereading your comment, or rereading Tos?

I think @Fred's right, actually. I remember something like this.

But I haven't learned Sukkah in years.

Double AA

5:56 PM

@SethJ The gemara, all three relevant tosfos's on the daf, perhaps the sugya he references on 10b, and the ritva

At least, that's what I should reread

2

Fred

@DoubleAA I just starred that last comment. Also, it couldn't hurt to read the relevant Rashi on 46b. AFAIK, Tos. aren't explicit anywhere about what they mean, but I couldn't think of an alternative explanation that fits. I don't think it's unusual to extend muktza for one item on account of muktza for another one, is it?

Double AA

@Fred I wouldn't say it's intuitive here, but there is possible precedent, eg. basis.

בסיס

Fred

@DoubleAA Clever.

Isaac Moses

@msh210 Possible fix

3

Charlie

6:17 PM

@fred hi @isaacmoses hi, btw, I had read that thing about prime, awesome, no?

Fred

6:28 PM

@DoubleAA On rereading Tos on 10b, it looks like it might not be referring to muktza. It looks like it means that we'd prohibit an esrog based on the safeik that sukkos has k'dusha achas combined with s'feika d'yoma (which manifests itself in our dwelling in the sukka on Sh'mini Atzeres), which would explain the language used "דמספקא ליה אם קדושה אחת הן או לא אלא היינו טעמא משום דגזר אתרוג אטו סוכה". (Which is interesting since, Tos. seems to question that interpretation).

@Charlie Hi, Charlie.

Charlie

@Fred how are you Fred?

Fred

@DoubleAA If so, the end of Tos. on 46b would have to simply mean that, since we rejected the interpretation of Rashi, there would obviously be no reason to say an esrog is muktza on the 9th.

@Charlie Fine, baruch HaShem.

@Charlie I'm about to log out of chat, so just tell me how your exam went?

@Charlie Also, happy birthday. :)

Charlie

@Fred thank you, wasn't so hard as I thought it would be

Fred

@Charlie Nice.

Charlie

@Fred thanks for your words yesterday

Daniel

7:03 PM

@MonicaCellio Just a friendly FYI, the plural of baal teshuva is baalei teshuva, not baalei teshuvot

(above is not related to the comment it is marked as a reply to. I was just unable to ping you because you aren't in the room)

Charlie

@Daniel hi Daniel

Daniel

@Charlie Hi there

how's it going?

Charlie

@Daniel fine, I think.

Daniel

@Charlie haha well I guess that's better than definitely terrible

Charlie

@Daniel I try to see the bright side, things could be worse

Monica Cellio

7:22 PM

@Daniel gah! And I even know that; I wonder why I typed what I did. :-(

@Daniel thanks, fixed now.

Seth J

@DoubleAA @Fred, I just reread the Tos again. He says, "even though one does not bless on it." I had assumed the "it" was the Mitzvah of eating in the Sukkah. Do you think that's wrong?

Fred

@SethJ No, I think that's correct (i.e. that it refers to the sukka).

Ali

hii

Seth J

7:44 PM

@Fred So....?

@Ali Hi

Monica Cellio

Is anybody able/willing to de-jargonify this question? Thanks.

Seth J

8:01 PM

@MonicaCellio Oy, nebach, that's going to take gevaldig hishtadlus. I'm not sure I could be mechavein to his dayos to really get to the ikkar of his shailah.

Monica Cellio

@SethJ cute. :-)

Seth J

@MonicaCellio :-)

(Of course his jargon is mostly Hebrew; mine's not exactly.)

Monica Cellio

@SethJ I'm curious; do people really talk like that? I mean, at that density of Hebrew/Yiddish/Yeshivish jargon?

Seth J

@MonicaCellio fo shizzle.

Monica Cellio

@SethJ I still have a lot to learn, then.

Seth J

8:06 PM

@MonicaCellio We need a Yeshivish one of these:

cockneyrhymingslang.co.uk/rabbit

Or, actually, the reverse.

Monica Cellio

@SethJ we need to get Google to add Yeshivish to their translator, though it would be nice if they'd enable it in only one direction. :-)

Isaac Moses

@MonicaCellio amazon.com/Frumspeak-Dictionary-Yeshivish-Chaim-Weiser/dp/…

Excerpt: bangitout.com/articles/viewarticle.php?a=1025

> Be'erech a yoivel and a half ago, the meyasdim shtelled avek on this makom a naiya malchus with the kavana that no one should have bailus over their chaver, and on this yesoid that everyone has the zelba zchusim. ...

Monica Cellio

8:23 PM

@IsaacMoses oh cool! (Though what I really need sometimes is the browser plugin. :-) )

I like the part about examples drawn from "actual usage".

HodofHod

One of the reviews there: "This is a gevaldike sefer, and I got asach hanaa from it. The etzem dictionary is gantz useful for talmidim of the shprach, and it's also geshmak to stam read through, which is a big toeles.
The hakdoma, on the metzius of yeshivish, is tief, and the other shticklach at the haschala (including a translation of Hamlet's soliloquy) are peledik.

I mamish hold of this sefer."

(Sorry about all the edits. I couldn't figure out how to blocktext it).

Monica Cellio

@SethJ, just saw your edit. Thanks!

Seth J

@MonicaCellio np.

@IsaacMoses I don't even know what that means.

Seth J

8:50 PM

@SethJ i've rewritten it. My question is in the first paragraph. But the answer is all within it. You're welcome to take must of the rest of my edit (which is your translation and explanation, which answers it) and post it as an answer and i'll accept it. Thanks You can add to your answer, any remarks I made further tackling my question based on your translation. — smu 7 mins ago

Umm, now what?

@MonicaCellio @msh210 @DoubleAA

Monica Cellio

@SethJ I'm hoping to get away with defering to the others on this. I didn't understand the original quesiton at all; with the edits I think I understand more of it, but from the discussion here and the comments there it sounds like there's more that I'm just not getting.

Seth J

@MonicaCellio I think he's acknowledging that his original question was just confusion based on a misunderstanding, my translation made that obvious, and now he wants to keep his question there so he's reworded it, though now the translation, which is now part of the question, still answers the question.

Ergo now, it seems to me, it's not a real question.

Isaac Moses

9:05 PM

@MonicaCellio I had the author as a substitute teacher a few times in high school. I think he was in Kollel at the time at the next-door Talmudical Yeshiva of Philadelphia, where he would have had ample opportunity to collect instances of actual usage

@SethJ Did you click on the link above it (where it came from)?

Monica Cellio

@SethJ yeah, that's the part that's confusing me. I see he acknowledges that the original had problems, but the two of you disagree on how to proceed. If your part stays in the question, what would a valid answer look like? Alternatively, what does it mean for the question to move your contribution to an answer as he asked -- is there a question in there?

@IsaacMoses I assume that anyone who actually writes such a book has had ample exposure somewhere; thanks for telling me where it probably was. (And hey, now I know what city you lived in during high school. :-) )

Isaac Moses

@MonicaCellio What city I lived near enough to get to for school, for at least part of high school, but yes.

... please don't steal my identity

Monica Cellio

9:23 PM

@IsaacMoses heh. I use that joke all the time in teaching people to think rigorously. (Nothing official -- not a teacher -- but I seem to be, err, pickier in this regard than many of the people I spend time with, so...) So it's funny to be on the receiving end.

@IsaacMoses of course I won't, ust as I trust you won't steal mine. :-)

Isaac Moses

May 14 at 3:09, by jake

@Daniel There's gotta be something to the correlation between nekudos nitpickers and great site moderators.

Seth J

@IsaacMoses No, I didn't realize there was a translated version. Thanks.

What if...

timesofisrael.com/…

Are there Halachic issues here?

@DoubleAA, @msh210, @IsaacMoses, @MonicaCellio, care to write a question based on this article? I haven't got the time at the moment. Long drive ahead of me starting....right.......now.

Double AA

10:07 PM

@SethJ I think it's right.

@Fred I thought he rejects the sefeika deyoma aspect?

@IsaacMoses One of the funnier books I've read.

You must read his Yeshivish rendition of the Gettysburg Address!

Isaac Moses

2 hours ago, by Isaac Moses

Excerpt: http://www.bangitout.com/articles/viewarticle.php?a=1025

@DoubleAA I've actually never read it. One of these days, I'll have to get my hands on a copy.

Double AA

@SethJ Perhaps encourage him to ask your question, which is interesting to the general populace instead of the old one which is just correcting a mistake he heard that no one else will probably hear again.

> We are mechuyav to be meshabed ourselves to the melocha in which these soldiers made a haschala--that vibalt they were moiser nefesh for this eisek, we must be mamash torud in it--that we are all mekabel on ourselves to be moisif on their peula so that their maisim should not be a bracha levatulla-- that Hashem should give the gantze oilam a naiya bren for cheirus-- that a nation that shtams by the oilam, by the oilam, by the oilam, will blaib fest ahd oilam.

"by the oilam, by the oilam, by the oilam"

genius!

Oh and the Pledge of Allegiance. I remember that being quite funny as well.

Isaac Moses

@DoubleAA Yes, indeed.

Double AA

> I am meshabed myself, b'li neder, to hold shtark to the siman of the United States of America and to the medina which is gufa its tachlis; one festa chevra, b'ezras Hashem, echad ve'yuchid, with simcha and erlichkeit for the gantza oilam.

(from theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/…)

Isaac Moses

@DoubleAA Is "bracha levatulla" actually used to mean "in vain" generally (not in reference to a beracha) in Yeshivish?

Double AA

10:16 PM

@IsaacMoses no clue.

Isaac Moses

@DoubleAA Thank you for not saying judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/ask

Fred

11:21 PM

@DoubleAA I read the Tosafos on 10b more carefully. I think the correct reading is like I originally said (i.e. esrogim were decreed to be muktza on the 8th since a sukka is still being used then and is therefore muktza). (He doesn't reject s'feika d'yoma, though - that the whole reason why the gemara says to eat in a sukka on the 8th). The Tosafos only mentions the idea of k'dusha achas to demonstrate that Rav Asi is not a viable source for Rashi's interpretation.

@DoubleAA The second time I read the Tosafos (when I got it wrong), I for some reason misread אלא היינו טעמא as referring to Rav Asi's safeik over whether two days of Yom Tov have k'dusha achas. :(

ping @SethJ

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