V'dibarta Bam

12:07 AM

@SethJ Not according to Mi Yodeya voters either :)

4

A: What is the source for a woman's voice as ervah?

Yerushalmi Challah 12b : Shmuel says that kol of a women is ervah because of the passuk in yirmiyahu 3:9. ט. וְהָיָה מִקֹּל זְנוּתָהּ וַתֶּחֱנַף אֶת הָאָרֶץ וַתִּנְאַף אֶת הָאֶבֶן וְאֶת הָעֵץ:‏ And it was through the voice [lit. lightness] of her harlotry, that she polluted the land, and...

MoriDoweedhYaAgob

12:31 AM

@DoubleAA only ervah if she is singing lustly

Double AA

12:44 AM

@MoriDoweedhYaAgob Isn't that a messed up ashkenazi kula?

Did you see the Rambam's teshuva #224?

Fred

1:08 AM

@MoriDoweedhYaAgob From the Rambam: ואם משמיע הזמירות היא אשה הנה יש כאן איסור חמישי על פי מאמרם ז"ל קול באשה ערוה ומכ"ש אם היא מזמרת בקולה

Double AA

@Fred Same Teshuva

Fred

@DoubleAA Yes (although the responsa are not numbered the same everywhere) - I got it from your comment.

Seth J

@double aa cute, but we all know that Yodeyans are overwhelmingly Ashkenazi, Reform, Kabbalists, or otherwise Pesulei 'Eiduth, and their votes are obviously meaningless. ;-)

Fred

@DoubleAA I just upvoted both answers, btw.

@SethJ I think the voters here also have a problem with halacha k'basrai. :)

Seth J

1:27 AM

@Fred some certainly do.

Charles Koppelman

3:29 AM

@DoubleAA I get 9 uses of "qua" in main, and that 1 in meta. I'd argue that's likely a few standard deviations above the norm.

data.stackexchange.com/jewish%20life%20and%20learning/query/…

Double AA

3:54 AM

@CharlesKoppelman It's a good word, ok??

:)

Your query doesn't account for three instances of sine qua non.

@Shmuli Hey there!

HodofHod

@DoubleAA I don't think he can talk here....

Double AA

@HodofHod Then go vote him up already! stackoverflow.com/q/16642261/807090

<don't tell the mod police I said that>

HodofHod

@DoubleAA Can't you give him explicit permission to this room?

Oh, look at us, talking about him as if he wasn't even here! How rude....

;)

Double AA

@HodofHod Ok I think I just did that. (Never tried before.)

@Shmuli Can you hear me now?

Try refreshing the page.

chirp chirp

@Shmuli Ah, well. Do come back when you've gotten some more rep, and be sure to check out our main site Mi Yodeya.

MoriDoweedhYaAgob

4:10 AM

:O

MoriDoweedhYaAgob

4:44 AM

@DoubleAA i posted an answer in that RaMbaM muslim post go check it out

Realz Slaw

4:58 AM

dweed

MoriDoweedhYaAgob

sholom 3leicham

Realz Slaw

<Moish> Oh Dweed ...

mmm I wonder if I could get Moish to join

MoriDoweedhYaAgob

no bots allowed

Realz Slaw

who says?

mmm actually I remember a bot that fixed something of mine on SE

one of the other sites

MoriDoweedhYaAgob

jahanum

Realz Slaw

5:07 AM

I showed you jahanum twice today :D

Ali

articles.washingtonpost.com/2009-01-04/news/…

Realz Slaw

mmm see the problem with these chats, is that these windows get lost in my thousand tabs :(

thats why I like irc better

MoriDoweedhYaAgob

@Ali you are missing the point. just because al farabi and averoes were muslim, they werent muslim the way muslims are now. these 2 fellas were even considered almost kafir by other muslims

Realz Slaw

mmm, dunno, non professional opinion here

but RamBam didn't "invent" most of his stuff

MoriDoweedhYaAgob

everything he brings down is seen in gamoro either bavli or yarushalmi

nothing new

Double AA

5:29 AM

@MoriDoweedhYaAgob Why do you say things that you know are wrong?

@Aryeh There are 150 places in the Rambam where he says "It seems to me". The question is more interesting in a place where the Rambam doesn't say it is his chiddush and yet we still don't find a source. — Double AA Sep 4 '12 at 16:25

Not to mention Toseftas which aren't brought in either Talmud.

MoriDoweedhYaAgob

it seen by him but known by us that he is best of the best :D

@DoubleAA RaMbaM brings mechilta many times not sure bout how much he brings tosefta though

Double AA

@MoriDoweedhYaAgob whatever. the point is i don't like misrepresentation of facts, whether intentional or not.

layla tov

MoriDoweedhYaAgob

@DoubleAA lailoh tov. check out that post by me though

Realz Slaw

mmm, its obvious when he says that he is suggesting something, then he is suggesting something

same with anyone

Charles Koppelman

5:49 AM

@DoubleAA oh I think it's a great word, I'm just amazed I guess

Ali

8:55 AM

judaism.stackexchange.com/revisions/28825/10

Is the above behavior allowed?

The post was opened to close it!

by @DoubleAA

And why is the post now still closed even after edits by @Monica Cllio

Double AA

12:34 PM

@Ali I wanted it to be closed for the right reason. Don't know what official SOP is for that kind of situation.

@CharlesKoppelman I'm just amazing I guess :)

Monica Cellio

1:07 PM

@Ali It was originally closed as a duplicate. In order to change that (since it was determined not to be a dupe) it had to be reopened; there's no way to directly change a close reason.

@Ali Two reasons, technical and policy. Technical reason: a locked post cannot accept answers (so there's no point in opening it). I suppose we could change the close reason to "not constructive" or "not a real question", but I don't see the need to bother unless asked. I would delete it, but Seth's answer deserves to stay (and he deserves the rep for tackling it).

Policy reason: as already discussed the scope is too broad, and you have not agreed to stop editing your propaganda into the question (hence the need for a lock). You are free to ask questions about the Jewish acceptability of specific practices (those would be answerable); you are not free to use this site as a soapbox.

My edits were not to enable the question to be reopened; they were to leave the question in an acceptable state.

Seth J

3:24 PM

Duplicate of Kosher symbols on non-food items — Seth J 2 hours ago

@DoubleAA @MonicaCellio ^^^ no?

Monica Cellio

@SethJ just got there. Yeah, looks like a dupe to me. Any opposed?

HodofHod

@MonicaCellio Nope. Voted

Monica Cellio

@HodofHod and closed. Do y'all think the answers should be merged? (@Seth, your new one would be casualty of a merge.)

Seth J

3:47 PM

@MonicaCellio While those 20 points are part of my plot to earn Trusted User status, I will take one for the team. :)

msh210

4:46 PM

Is this a dupe? — Double AA 13 mins ago

↑ thoughts, anyone?

Monica Cellio

@msh210 the new question seems to be asking specifically about the Ari, who I don't see mentioned in the answers on the other question. What am I missing?

msh210

@MonicaCellio Arguably it's a case for setting a bounty or something. He's asking the same exact question as the other, but adding "...but I seek answers only according to the Ari, and only with a citation" that the other lacks.

ping @DoubleAA

Monica Cellio

@msh210 yeah, not sure -- the older question doesn't specify man or woman and the accepted answer is about women. The other answer is an anecdote about a man (unsourced, and no reason to believe that's the Ari). I can see the argument for it being a dupe, but I'm not reaching for that button myself just yet. It seems like we've had followup questions that drill into a prior question/answer before; is this different?

msh210

5:02 PM

@MonicaCellio Do you have any specific precedents in mind? I'm curious whether we've had any where the drilling you mention was only to seek a specific sourced answer to the same question.

Monica Cellio

@msh210 it's a vague impression, sorry. That's why I'm being so wishy-washy. :-)

msh210

(^ That was to show that wishy-washiness is likeable, @MonicaCellio)

Seth J

5:27 PM

@MonicaCellio and @msh210, the older question has an accepted answer about women. I think it's fair to add the words "for women" to the question and migrate the already insufficient (unsourced) answer to the new question, where it will be an insufficient answer there as well. Except it doesn't really answer either question, so the preference might be to delete it. Mod thoughts?

msh210

@SethJ My own personal thoughts are that the (unsourced) answer does technically answer the older question, so shouldn't be deleted. And there's no technical possibility of moving it. So (again IMO) either we leave it where it is or we merge the questions together.

Seth J

@msh210 You can't move an answer?

Why was the user removed?

msh210

@SethJ We can do so only when moving all answers on a question AFAIK.

@SethJ I really can't say.

Ali

A question by a member of this site: islam.stackexchange.com/questions/8244/…

2

Q: Is there a difference between idolatry and partnership with God?

In Judaism, there is a distinction drawn between avoda zarah (idolatry) and shituf (association). The former is the worship of multiple gods and/or worship of idols as gods. The latter is the association of "partners" with who we believe is the One God in a way that, as Wikipedia says, "is not ...

Seth J

@msh210 Oh, I thought it was this question:

2 hours ago, by Seth J

Duplicate of Kosher symbols on non-food items — Seth J 2 hours ago

msh210

5:42 PM

@SethJ I don't see any removed users there.

Seth J

@msh210 No, I know. I just assumed the deleted points were because that question got moved (as discussed earlier). Now I'm more confused than ever.

Monica Cellio

@SethJ when a user's account is deleted, such as because the user requested it, all votes cast by that user are invalidated but you get no breadcrumbs to figure out what happened more specifically. :-(

Seth J

@MonicaCellio Oh, so I just lost that user's votes, but a question with an answer I wrote wasn't purged.

msh210

@SethJ The only posts purged if any were that user's. (Whether his were depends on... er... I think whether they had any upvotes and some other criterion I can't think of. I can find out if you want to know.)

Monica Cellio

5:57 PM

@SethJ that's my guess. At least that's what "user was removed" usually means in rep history, in my experience. I'm not sure what it would say if one of your posts was deleted, but it would be different.

Seth J

(Who's Kitfox?)

Monica Cellio

@msh210 IIRC, downvoted questions with no answers, and downvoted answers, are removed.

msh210

@SethJ "@" ~~him~~ her, apparently and ask. :-)

Monica Cellio

@SethJ a visitor. Hi @KitFox!

Seth J

@kitfox, thanks.

msh210

6:00 PM

@MonicaCellio I thought it was something like that, but meta.stackoverflow.com/a/131666/161792 disagrees.

Hi, @KitFox. :-)

Monica Cellio

@msh210 I think that post is out of date. We saw some stuff get deleted when another user recently deleted his account. (Am I allowed to say more? The deletion is obvious to anybody who looks at the remaining now-anonymized posts, but I'll be vague just in case.)

msh210

@MonicaCellio Oh, okay, then.

@SethJ Often, when a flag is thrown in any SE chat room, a moderator from another site will stop in to read the transcript for context and to see whether any site mods are in the room, both of which will help him decide what to do with the flag if anything. That may be what happened here (@KitFox is a mod on English Language & Usage) but, if so, then the flag disappeared before I saw it.

@KitFox chat.stackexchange.com/messages/9534903/history? (I'm lost.)

Monica Cellio

@msh210 I think I was confused; I went looking on MSO for something newer and didn't find. Perhaps I am conflating account deletion with the roomba process. Anyway, deleted users' votes go away and that's what probably happened to Seth; perhaps no posts are deleted.

msh210

@MonicaCellio Yeah, I dunno. If you want to know what happens to deleted users' posts, @SethJ (or anyone), by all means say so and I'll find out for sure bl"n.

Seth J

@msh210 I was going to self-delete just that line after you or @MonicaCellio saw my question above it, but I missed the deadline. So I flagged it.

(I didn't realize the history would still be there.)

Monica Cellio

6:12 PM

@msh210 or ask on meta.

msh210

@SethJ Ah! Which explains our EL&U buddy's presence. Okay.

@MonicaCellio Sure.

Monica Cellio

@msh210 I've also seen our EL&U buddy in the Writers chat room, where one day we spent a little time talking about kashrut. Chat is like that sometimes. :-)

Seth J

@MonicaCellio I assume that now. I did not initially, as I assumed it was related to the dupe/merge we had been discussing earlier. But then I saw "user removed" instead of "answer deleted" (or something, referring to my answer), and I assumed that the entire account of the OP had been removed, along with his Q and my A.

Monica Cellio

@SethJ gotcha. No, I think this was just unfortunate synchronicity. We haven't done anything to the question we were discussing (or at least not last I checked).

MoriDoweedhYaAgob

@MonicaCellio is there a problem with my Rambam post?

Monica Cellio

6:18 PM

@MoriDoweedhYaAgob you mean your answer to Daniel's question? I just now saw that you added a bunch of comments; let me read them. (I didn't get pinged.)

Ok

@MoriDoweedhYaAgob ok, so your first (long) paragraph talks about him possibly having practiced Islam (or not), about having at least been immersed in it for a time. If your answer is "no influence", how does that help your argument? It actually supports the "yes he was" answer to my eye. Your comments are full of speculation; if you think they're relevant you should harden them up and add them to your answer.

MoriDoweedhYaAgob

also I thought shituf was an Ashkenazi invention :)

Read what was the influence in later paragraph

Monica Cellio

@MoriDoweedhYaAgob my goal is to get to a clear answer. I don't actually care about etiher the question or the answer otherwise; it's just that you seem to be arguing exactly the opposite of what you said in the argument that led to the question, so I'm confused.

MoriDoweedhYaAgob

6:23 PM

op needs to specify which influence he is talking bout. Food clothing what

Monica Cellio

@MoriDoweedhYaAgob I read your answer and I don't understand it. I haven't downvoted yet; I started by leaving a comment asking about it so you could improve it.

@MoriDoweedhYaAgob then you should tell him so.

MoriDoweedhYaAgob

No I said in the argument the same as in the comments. He was influenced to write anti propaganda by muslims

That's how he was influenced

I did in the chat

he didn't chap

Monica Cellio

@MoriDoweedhYaAgob it's worth noting that you and Ali are saying opposite things in your answers, yet Ali endorsed yours. So I don't think communication is happening.

MoriDoweedhYaAgob

@daniel fix your question regarding influence

Monica Cellio

@MoriDoweedhYaAgob the question is the only solid record. Also, if you think a question is unclear, you shouldn't guess and go on to answer; you should ask that it be clarified, possibly closing in the meantime.

MoriDoweedhYaAgob

6:26 PM

Ali is ali lol I'm not giving an answer to support ali if he wants to see it that way ok

Im on my phone so going home now

mill try to do something when I get home

msh210

@msh210 (Today is Martin Carthy's (Gregorian) birthday.)

Seth J

@msh210 This may shock you, but I've never heard of him.

msh210

@SethJ :-) Nor had I, before today. But I like his version of "Scarborough Fair".

Apparently Paul Simon learned the song from him.

Seth J

@msh210 Alright, giving it a listen now.

(Thanks.)

Speaking of semi-famous British Martins, Sir Martin Gilbert is very ill. If anyone is interested in Davening for him, his Hebrew name is Melech ben Miriam.

2

msh210

6:54 PM

@SethJ Is that the guy who wrote The Atlas of Jewish History?

(Actually, I can check. Googling....)

Seth J

@msh210 He's one of the foremost experts on the Holocaust and the State of Israel, and by virtue of his literary prolificacy alone he is a fountainhead of research and a driving force of perpetuating the memories of the Holocaust.

(Not to mention Hasbara.)

@msh210 He's written several atlases of Jewish and other histories.

msh210

Yeah, he wrote the book I mentioned. Along with, as you link to, a whole lot of others. R'fua sh'lema. (I never knew he was Jewish, incidentally.)

@SethJ Hasbara meaning en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hasbara? (I'm unfamiliar with the term except in its most general meaning of "explanation".)

Daniel

@msh210 It is used as a kind of "euphemism" for Israeli PR

"Explaining" why they do what they do

Seth J

@msh210 I'm not sure of his personal feelings on the subject, but yes, that's what I'm referring to. His books, however, are very useful for such an endeavor.

msh210

@SethJ I see.

@Daniel I see.

Thanks.

Daniel

6:58 PM

@MoriDoweedhYaAgob What exactly do you find unclear about it?

Seth J

@msh210 He is actually a cartographer by training. Hence the atlases.

Daniel

Also @MonicaCellio and @anybody else, do you find that question unclear?

Monica Cellio

@Daniel the question seems clear to me. (I probably would have asked "in what ways were..." as opposed to a yes/no question, especially with "in any way", but that's a nit, not a clarity issue.)

Daniel

@MonicaCellio Yeah, you're right. I probably should have phrased it that way. I was really posting it in response to the linked discussion with @MoriDoweedhYaAgob in chat, but that would have probably been a more constructive question

MoriDoweedhYaAgob

That's what I was referring too daniel

not yes or no but in what way

Also explain what is Islamic influence philosophical or just islam in general or what

Daniel

7:09 PM

@MoriDoweedhYaAgob Well, that question I was looking for any of those answers, although the answer that I was expecting to receive was that he was affected philosophically which in turn resulted in an influence on his psak halacha

@MoriDoweedhYaAgob but I specifically ask in the question, "Was Rambam's philosophy affected in any way by Islamic culture or religion?"

I think that's pretty specific

Seth J

@Daniel to be fair, that does specify just about everything, which can be seen as vague.

Daniel

@SethJ Fair enough, but I think the second question guides answers to relevant information

Come to think of it, I guess the second question is really what I am interested here

Fred

7:26 PM

@SethJ judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/28883/…

jake

7:54 PM

@IsaacMoses, Thank you. That was very thoughtful. (I'm sure you know what I'm referring to.)

Seth J

8:19 PM

Talk about irony: judaism.stackexchange.com/posts/12655/revisions

(@msh210)

Daniel

@SethJ I think that post is deleted

Seth J

@Daniel It is. Still humorous. Are you able to see the revision history, even if not the post itself?

Daniel

8:34 PM

@SethJ Nope. I can't see anything

Double AA

@Daniel Try judaism.stackexchange.com/posts/12655/edit

Select the different revisions at the top.

It's a known bug.

Daniel

@DoubleAA Oh man, that's funny

He even left the footnote numbers

I wonder if it was done intentionally as a joke haha

@DoubleAA Is the bug that people can't see the revision history or that they can see the different versions from the edit dialog?

Double AA

8:52 PM

@Daniel That under 10k can see anything about the deleted post at all

Over 10k can always see all revisions on a deleted post, but only mods can search through deleted posts.

Seth J

@SethJ (@MonicaCellio) now you want to take away 60 points from me? ;-)

Monica Cellio

9:17 PM

@SethJ oh, so 20 is ok but 60 is wrong? Now I have a better idea where your boundaries are. :-) (But you'll notice I haven't merged anything either. In truth I haven't had a chance to look at it again.)

@SethJ 40 -- if we do merge I trust we would keep the higher-scoring of the duplicate answers.

MoriDoweedhYaAgob

10:13 PM

@all wheres the gamoro bout saying sholom. the tanna went to the market gave sholom to everyone

Charlie

Shalom

Fred

@Charlie Shalom. How's it going?

Charlie

@Fred not too bad but not very good

Fred

@Charlie What's on your mind?

Charlie

@Fred preocupation

Fred

10:25 PM

@Charlie You're preoccupied with preoccupation?

Charlie

@Fred I'm worried about lots of things

Fred

@Charlie I'm sorry to hear that.

@Charlie Would you like to discuss any of those things?

Charlie

@Fred :-/

no one said mathematics course would be easy...

Fred

@Charlie Which course?

Charlie

@Fred Mathematics

Fred

10:32 PM

@Charlie So like a general survey course?

Charlie

I'm mathematics student

Fred

@Charlie What subject again? Humanities? :)

Charlie

@Fred specifically introduction to number theory

and topology

Fred

@Charlie Don't get yourself tied in knots over the stuff.

Charlie

@Fred that sounds funny, because topology studies knots

Fred

10:36 PM

@Charlie :)

Charlie

@Fred :)

Fred

@Charlie Are your exams staggered, or are you getting hit with them all at once?

Charlie

@Fred I'm being hit all at once

Fred

@Charlie My sympathies.

@Charlie If you need to take a break from work, consider browsing through these 15 Mathematics related questions on Mi Yodeya.

Charlie

@Fred hehe funny!

Torah is full with programming problems

Fred

10:43 PM

@Charlie Have you seen this one?

Charlie

@Fred cool!

Fred

@Charlie How about this one, possibly related to the material in your number theory class.

Charlie

@Fred yes, yes!

Fred

@Charlie So you can learn Torah and become more familiar with modular arithmetic at the same time. :)

Charlie

@Fred hehe yes

@Fred do you like mathematics, Freddie?

Fred

10:56 PM

@Charlie Sure, but I think it's still deciding if it likes me.

Charlie

@Fred oh!

@Fred Tomorrow is my birthday

:)

Fred

@Charlie Well, then! Happy birthday.

msh210

@Charlie My degree is in topology. I'm out of practice (and doubt I can help with algebraic topology, which I never used in my research), but if you need help with point-set or low-dimensional, give me a holler.

Fred

@Charlie It's also Jake's wedding.

Charlie

@Fred Thank you!

@msh210 OH thank you a lot!

msh210

11:07 PM

@Charlie Happy birthday! Many happy returns.

3

Charlie

@Fred yeah, I saw :)

@msh210 Thank you thank you

@msh210 I knew it, your knot really called my attention ;)

msh210

@Charlie :-)

But now I've gtg. Good luck with your preoccupations.

Charlie

@msh210 Thank you

Fred

@Charlie msh210 is knot in the room anymore.

Charlie

@Fred hahahha

Fred

11:13 PM

@Charlie You may also like this answer by @DoubleAA

Charlie

@Fred cool, i did not know it

Charlie

11:38 PM

@Fred I'm scared, Fred

Fred

@Charlie Why?

Charlie

@Fred because of my exam tomorrow :(

Fred

@Charlie Which class?

Charlie

@Fred number theory

Fred

@Charlie Which topics do you have to review for the exam?

Charlie

11:46 PM

@Fred congruence, diophantines equations...

Fred

@Charlie Ok, congruence you have get familiar enough so you can understand intuitively. For Diophantine equations, just work through some examples thoroughly and remember the key steps.

@Charlie I assume you mean LDE's?

Charlie

@Fred yes, yes

Fred

@Charlie Budget how much time you have left to study, work out a plan of topics to cover, and try to pace yourself. Also, try to take breaks at least hourly. If you are allowed a formula/note sheet, budget time for making one. Also, make sure to get enough sleep so that you won't be mentally sluggish tomorrow.

Charlie

@Fred thank you :)

Fred

@Charlie Make sure you work through practice problems of the type that are likely to appear on the exam so that you'll be able to tackle them quickly tomorrow.

Charlie

11:56 PM

@Fred yes, yes. some are a bit long...

there are some proofs i did not get :(

Fred

@Charlie Do you have to reproduce proofs on the exam, or construct new proofs?

Charlie

@Fred construct new proofs

Fred

@Charlie What kinds of proofs have you been doing (e.g. proving that the square root of a prime number is irrational)?

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