V'dibarta Bam

ת"ר אלו ברכות שאדם שוחה בהן באבות תחלה וסוף בהודאה תחלה וסוף ואם בא לשוח בסוף כל ברכה וברכה ובתחלת כל ברכה וברכה מלמדין אותו שלא ישחה אר"ש בן פזי אריב"ל משום בר קפרא הדיוט כמו שאמרנו כהן

כהן גדול בסוף כל ברכה וברכה והמלך תחלת כל ברכה וברכה וסוף כל ברכה וברכה אמר רבי יצחק בר נחמני לדידי מפרשא לי מיניה דריב"ל הדיוט כמו שאמרנו כהן גדול תחלת כל ברכה וברכה המלך כיון שכרע שוב אינו זוקף שנאמר ויהי ככלות שלמה להתפלל וגו' קם מלפני מזבח ה' מכרוע על ברכיו: ת"ר קידה על אפים שנאמר ותקד בת שבע אפים ארץ כריעה על ברכים שנאמר מכרוע על ברכיו השתחואה זו פשוט ידים ורגלים שנאמר הבא נבא אני ואמך ואחיך להשתחות לך ארצה אמר רב חייא בריה דרב הונא חזינא להו לאביי ורבא דמצלו אצלויי תני חדא הכורע

בהודאה הרי זה משובח ותניא אידך הרי זה מגונה לא קשיא הא בתחלה הא לבסוף רבא כרע בהודאה תחלה וסוף אמרי ליה רבנן אמאי קא עביד מר הכי אמר להו חזינא לרב נחמן דכרע וחזינא ליה לרב ששת דקא עבד הכי והתניא הכורע בהודאה הרי זה מגונה ההיא בהודאה שבהלל והתניא הכורע בהודאה ובהודאה של הלל הרי זה מגונה כי תניא ההיא בהודאה דברכת המזון:

gemoroh says shohHeh for both kohen jodol and a regular person

yet we know a kohen jodol doesnt bow the way we do

Double AA

@DhoweedYaAgov we do?

DhoweedYaAgov

yes

Double AA

@DhoweedYaAgov how?

stop asserting and start sourcing.

look how complicated this is, when before you asserted it was pashut

DhoweedYaAgov

is azra not the kohen jogol?

jodol

Double AA

7:28 AM

@DhoweedYaAgov it's jodhol! learn your dageshs if you are going to distinguish them

DhoweedYaAgov

stick with me

:P

Double AA

@DhoweedYaAgov the kohen gadol read torah and said brachot in the ezarat nashim on yom kippur. yes.

DhoweedYaAgov

5 And at the evening offering I arose up from my fasting, even with my garment and my mantle rent; and I fell upon my knees, and spread out my hands unto the LORD my God; 6 and I said: 'O my God, I am ashamed and blush to lift up my face to Thee, my God; for our iniquities are increased over our head, and our guiltiness is grown up unto the heavens.

Double AA

@DhoweedYaAgov i never said people in the mikdash didn't bow this way. people outside the mikdash can bow this way too, for thing slike tachanun. but it isn't the enactment to bow this way four times in the amida

DhoweedYaAgov

5

Double AA

7:31 AM

The kohen gadol mentioned in the gemara is talking about on yom kippur when he prayed

after reading the torah

DhoweedYaAgov

the posuk there is to show how to bow not why he bowed...

Double AA

@DhoweedYaAgov it showed how he bowed. again, i agree such a bow happens. just not in shmone esre

DhoweedYaAgov

Our Rabbis taught: These are the benedictions in saying which one bows [in the Tefillah]: The benediction of the patriarchs,16 beginning and end, and the thanksgiving, beginning and end.17 If one wants to bow down at the end of each benediction and at the beginning of each benediction, he is instructed not to do so. R. Simeon b. Pazzi said in the name of R. Joshua b. Levi, reporting Bar Kappara: An ordinary person bows as we have mentioned;

a high priest at the end of each benediction; a king at the beginning of each benediction and at the end of each benediction.1 R. Isaac b. Nahmani said: It was explained to me by R. Joshua b. Levi that an ordinary person does as we have mentioned; a high priest bows at the beginning of each blessing; and a king, once he has knelt down, does not rise again [until the end of the Tefillah], as it says: And it was so that when Solomon had made an end of praying, … he arose from before the Altar of the Lord, from kneeling on his knees.2

Double AA

@DhoweedYaAgov do you want to make a diyuk from your english translation?

DhoweedYaAgov

no

Double AA

7:32 AM

@DhoweedYaAgov then why quote it?

DhoweedYaAgov

thought you might have problems

:P

the gemoroh is talking about shamona esrei

not tahHanun

Double AA

i know

DhoweedYaAgov

so whats the problem?

Double AA

@DhoweedYaAgov nothing. you have been proven wrong and all is good in the world

DhoweedYaAgov

@DoubleAA Double AA
@DhoweedYaAgov it showed how he bowed. again, i agree such a bow happens. just not in shmone esre

how is the bowing mentioned in the gemoroh not talking bout shamona esrei if the whole topic of that piece is shamona esrei

...

Double AA

7:36 AM

@DhoweedYaAgov the bowing is talking about shmone esre. it's not talking about כורע though

different kind of bowing

DhoweedYaAgov

give me the word for bowing

in hebrew

Double AA

@DhoweedYaAgov the gemara says שוחה. you just quoted it

DhoweedYaAgov

right

and im telling you shohHeh means a general bowing

and later on it explains these general bowings in detail

Double AA

@DhoweedYaAgov you can say whatever you want. your question was to justify common practice and i have done so.

DhoweedYaAgov

you have not

by misinterpreting a word doesnt mean you justified something

Double AA

7:38 AM

@DhoweedYaAgov how does my read not fit the gemara?

@DhoweedYaAgov you misinterperted it

no you mistinterperted it

DhoweedYaAgov

no u

i win

Double AA

no you did

DhoweedYaAgov

no u

Double AA

no youdid

this is silly

DhoweedYaAgov

ok

Double AA

7:39 AM

you only think its misinterpreted because of you preconcieved idea that the rambam must be right

DhoweedYaAgov

so why later on the gamoroh brings examples where rabbonim were on their sides

or on doing koreah or kida

why in tanach we see people doing it?

so these people stam just did it out of no where?

Double AA

@DhoweedYaAgov TACHANUN!

DhoweedYaAgov

right

Double AA

right. problem solved

I'm with you that tachanun used to be on the ground

DhoweedYaAgov

and the posuk that says azra was davening minhHo was also tahHanun

or maaraiv w/e one it was

Double AA

7:41 AM

it was prayer

there was no shmone esrei fixed like today

DhoweedYaAgov

Daniel 6:11: And when Daniel knew that the writing was signed, he went into his house--now his windows were open in his upper chamber toward Jerusalem--and he kneeled upon his knees three times a day, and prayed, and gave thanks before his God, as he did aforetime.

this too?

davening 3times a day on his knees

also tahHanun?

Double AA

@DhoweedYaAgov kol shekein there was no shmone esrei

DhoweedYaAgov

shamonei esrei is the brochoth not the movement

Double AA

@DhoweedYaAgov the rambam says some do tachanun at maariv

DhoweedYaAgov

i know what he says

Double AA

7:43 AM

@DhoweedYaAgov it's the hwole thing. it didn't exist

DhoweedYaAgov

obviously davening on the knees did exist

Double AA

you can pray on your knees whenever you want

DhoweedYaAgov

yea 3times a day...

Double AA

the formal construct of shmone esrei with required bowings did not exist back then

DhoweedYaAgov

again, the brochoth were not constructed the movement was...

its the same movement with a fixed speech

Double AA

7:44 AM

@DhoweedYaAgov that's total speculation. that's not a proof, it's reading your story into the text

DhoweedYaAgov

so you saying chazal just did away with davening al birkayim?

Double AA

@DhoweedYaAgov it's not the same movemnet: do you do the whole thing on your knees like daniel?

DhoweedYaAgov

if you want do it if you dont want dont do it?

....

Double AA

@DhoweedYaAgov no. they left that for tachanun

DhoweedYaAgov

tahHanun is not on the knees.........

Double AA

7:46 AM

@DhoweedYaAgov tachanun is a prayer free-for-all

fall on your face

do some knees after

DhoweedYaAgov

tahHanun is only on the knees if you dont have space to spread out

no...

tahHanun is spreading hands and feet no knees

Double AA

you can still pray on your knees whenever

DhoweedYaAgov

tahHanun is hishtahHawoyoh

Double AA

@DhoweedYaAgov i know i know

@DhoweedYaAgov yes

DhoweedYaAgov

yea...shamona esrei is the knees...

Double AA

7:47 AM

@DhoweedYaAgov says the rambam. not the gemara

bottom line: you have no proof from tanach texts.

DhoweedYaAgov

what?

...

Double AA

@DhoweedYaAgov seriously? you haven't been listening to me? I'm not going to keep talking if you keep acting like ali and going in circles.

DhoweedYaAgov

im not going in circles, im telling you shohHe means a general bow

for the sick

just bow your body thats it. but a real bow is kidoh krioh and histahHawoyoh(tahHanun)

Double AA

@DhoweedYaAgov the gemara says do shocheh for shmone esrei

DhoweedYaAgov

yea...

Double AA

7:50 AM

@DhoweedYaAgov QED.

DhoweedYaAgov

translate it to english now...

gemoro says bow for shamona asrei

Double AA

@DhoweedYaAgov Do general bow for shmone esrei.

DhoweedYaAgov

follow up the gamoro

these are the bows which are done for shamona asrei

Double AA

@DhoweedYaAgov we did this already....you didn't prove anything

DhoweedYaAgov

specifically

Double AA

7:51 AM

@DhoweedYaAgov it never says that!

DhoweedYaAgov

why mention it?

who cares how people bowed in the tanach? we dont bow that way anyway

Double AA

@DhoweedYaAgov on the topic of bowing. also tachanun is coming up soon

DhoweedYaAgov

so what...

Double AA

the gemara has been more random than that

DhoweedYaAgov

we already know tahHanun is histahHwayoh why do i need to learn kidoh and krioh

Double AA

7:52 AM

@DhoweedYaAgov so nothing. read the words. they say what i said. you are the one making diyukim to change pshat to match your minhag

@DhoweedYaAgov the gemara says it all together. its a package meimra

same reason it mentions them all together in megillah

in the parallel sugya which is only talking about tachanun

but it mentions them all. look it up

HodofHod

@DoubleAA Was the Sarajevo Haggadah the kind of thing you were looking for?

Double AA

@HodofHod it helps! i wonder if other sephardi rishonim or achronim mention it. perhaps its only an ashkenazi thing

DhoweedYaAgov

@DoubleAA when rov came to bovel he didnt bow down

where in gemoroh is htat

megilloh?

Double AA

@DhoweedYaAgov ya 22b or so

something amud bet

that's the one im talking about

DhoweedYaAgov

its talking bout histahHawoyoh?

Double AA

7:56 AM

@DhoweedYaAgov yep. talking about tachanun

DhoweedYaAgov

only? or shamona asrei to

Double AA

look it up.

your trying to prove me wrong here

HodofHod

@DoubleAA I think it must just be like Alex said in the last paragraph: one of several orders that just stuck. See this page for example:

DhoweedYaAgov

@DoubleAA it says hishtahHawoyoh

Double AA

@DhoweedYaAgov like i said.

DhoweedYaAgov

8:02 AM

@DoubleAA i think yarushalmi also plays a role in this

Double AA

@DhoweedYaAgov could be. i'm not familiar.

@HodofHod interesting. thanks!

DhoweedYaAgov

@DoubleAA is shohHeh and hishtahHawoyoh not same roots?

@DoubleAA jastrow says shuahH means to bow

sorry to bend

Double AA

@DhoweedYaAgov You finally caught on :) The answer is possibly. IINM there is some machlokes grammarian about this. IAE they are being presented in different (and unusual) binyanim seemingly unnecessarily so it makes you wonder.

Plus the rambam doesn't require hishtachavayah for during the shmone esrei

so it's not foolproof either way

DhoweedYaAgov

no because histahHawoyoh is for tahHanun...

im not saying shohHeh is histahHawoyoh

they just both mean a type of bending

Double AA

@DhoweedYaAgov right but the gemara says shocheh is what to do during shmone esrei

DhoweedYaAgov

8:07 AM

right

like i said you bend during shamona asrei

in general terms

you are supposed to bend to show you are even to hashem

how to bend is what is next written

Double AA

@DhoweedYaAgov no

DhoweedYaAgov

you dont see it that way i do

Double AA

@DhoweedYaAgov correct

which means we both have possible reads

so don't tell me the rambam is the only way and no one else has any explanation

DhoweedYaAgov

i go by rambam

and his son in hamaspig says the rabbonim stopped it meaning they did do it

and he was bringing it back

Double AA

@DhoweedYaAgov i know

but you asked me

1 hour ago, by DhoweedYaAgov

give me a reason why we dont do hishtahHawoyoh?

so i win

DhoweedYaAgov

8:12 AM

no...

that is not a reason

if they did do it

Double AA

@DhoweedYaAgov you just said above there are two ways to read the gemara and you hold like rambam

DhoweedYaAgov

and they stopped it because of the reading it this way and that way

that is not an answer

we all agree the gamoroh is not clear on many things yes?

Double AA

@DhoweedYaAgov you're proving it used to happen from the people who say it should happen. bad proof.

1 hour ago, by Double AA

@DhoweedYaAgov we never did

DhoweedYaAgov

so one has to have masoroh to say what the gamoroh really means yes?

so for rabbonim to stop it, it means they closed the masoroh yes?

Double AA

@DhoweedYaAgov they never stopped it

DhoweedYaAgov

8:14 AM

so for someone to read something and say this and this with no background

Double AA

it never happend

you aren't listening

everyone except rambam says it never happened

DhoweedYaAgov

im pretty sure rasag said yes

Double AA

you hold like rambam. i hold like everyone else

DhoweedYaAgov

brb going on phone

Double AA

@DhoweedYaAgov maybe. i don't know

@DhoweedYaAgov don't bother. i'm going to sleep :)

All: i can relocate the above messages to another room. I don't think it is off topic here. I admit I didn't know how long it would go for. Ping me if you want me to.

Ali

9:13 AM

-1

Q: How did foreign biblical people became the followers of their respective prophets

How did the foreign people enter the fold of believers in biblical times of Moses and prior. One scenario to better understand this question: In biblical times, A foreign person would have entered Israel now what he has to do to be accepted into the fold of the followers of Prophet Moses?Are th...

Ali

9:49 AM

I have changed above question please open it

-7

Q: How is it possible for Muslims to be classified as Gentiles even if they Don't deem Torah to be corrupt and have Abrahimic Lineage?

Muslims don't believe Torah to be corrupt nor do they deny the Torah and it is considered in the six articles of faith to believe in all revealed scriptures like Torah, Psalms etc . Also Muslim share a common patriarch Prophet Moses and believe in all of the subsequent prophets like Israel etc ,...

gentiles torah-study avot-patriarch-fathers islam

Ali

4:33 PM

HI @MonicaCellio how are you doing?

Monica Cellio

@DoubleAA it's on-topic here so I don't think you need to relocate it. But you guys are going around in circles so I don't know how productive it would be to resume it unless y'all can agree on some axioms. (Ping @DhoweedYaAgov)

DhoweedYaAgov

6:22 PM

@MonicaCellio i think rambam is right @DoubleAA doesnt see evidence to think rambam is right, and i dont think rambam would make things up out of nowhere for rambam always goes with pshat and everything he says is in the bavli or yarushalmi, it could be we have a faulty text compared to rambams, or were learning it not like rambam does

Monica Cellio

@DhoweedYaAgov it looks, from the voluminous transcript that I only kind-of skimmed, like it's more complicated than that. I don't want to get involved. I'm just saying that I think it would be productive for each of you to state your own givens (let DoubleAA state his own) and, based on that, see if you think a discussion would be fruitful. Just friendly advice, nothing more.

DhoweedYaAgov

@MonicaCellio we actually did that and it was somewhat of a mess. i summed it it quite good, he believes not in what rambam said and i do.

Double AA

Mar 4 at 15:57, by Monica Cellio

@Ali since you're here I"ll say this now (also for @DhoweedYaAgov and others): do not bring the Islam-versus-Judaism discussion back here. We created a special room just for that. Once I figure out how I intend to move the extensive discussion from Friday/Saturday to there. V'dibarta Bam is not the right place for this. Last night I said this as my own personal opinion; I am now speaking as a moderator.

DhoweedYaAgov

read the text and you will see, like i told you many times stop arguing with me any everyone else until you learn

Monica Cellio

6:37 PM

@DoubleAA And further @ali: we had to close that room because it got out of hand, and we said there not to bring it back here.

DhoweedYaAgov

@MonicaCellio make a new room? :P

Monica Cellio

@DhoweedYaAgov No. Not without evidence that further discussion would be productive. Find another site.

@DhoweedYaAgov If he -- or anybody else -- posts inappropriately we'll deal with those cases, including booting from chat if needed. A pattern of inappropriate behavior on the main site will have consequences.

DhoweedYaAgov

@MonicaCellio ive been here for a month or so, and i think ali has been present since before i came.

Ali

@MonicaCellio why that post is still locked?

Monica Cellio

@DhoweedYaAgov But just because he's a Muslim with an obvious agenda doesn't mean he can't ask a legitimate question, and if he does that, that's different.

@Ali because you have not addressed the issues raised in the comments, as I told you before.

@DhoweedYaAgov I cannot talk about specifics, but there is an escalation process and the mods are aware of what is going on.

Ali

6:42 PM

@MonicaCellio No the post was closed even after it was rollbacked to the accepted version

DhoweedYaAgov

@MonicaCellio kill it with fire :p

Ali

@DhoweedYaAgov ?

DhoweedYaAgov

Ali

@MonicaCellio and you said the doubts are being resolved?

Monica Cellio

@Ali that resolution requires that you clarify what you are actually asking about. You think it's clear but several long-time, well-respected participants here have no idea what you're asking about. You need to fix that; a lock isn't just a count-down to reopen.

Ali

6:48 PM

-6

Q: How is it possible for Muslims to be classified as Gentiles even if they Don't deem Torah to be corrupt and have Abrahimic Lineage?

Muslims don't believe Torah to be corrupt nor do they deny the Torah and it is considered in the six articles of faith to believe in all revealed scriptures like Torah, Psalms etc . Also Muslim share a common patriarch Prophet Moses and believe in all of the subsequent prophets like Israel etc ,...

gentiles torah-study avot-patriarch-fathers islam

DhoweedYaAgov

what was the old question because it seems the same to me

Ali

This post has been locked while disputes about its content are being resolved. For more info visit meta.

DhoweedYaAgov

since last time

Ali

It was not closed because of "not real question;

It was just locked and forgotten purposely

Monica Cellio

@Ali I just closed it (seeing other close votes already there).

Ali

6:50 PM

I had flagged it

many times but no response

Monica Cellio

@Ali it was apparently forgotten by you, as you didn't make the edits that were requested.

Isaac Moses

@MonicaCellio He can't do anything to the question while it's locked, IINM. I thought the conclusion was to leave the question in the state it's in, locked against further edit wars, and allow people to answer (as they have already) in that state.

Monica Cellio

@Ali do you know how to review responses to your flags?

@IsaacMoses oh, ok -- I got confused by all the closed questions. I will reopen.

But not unlock.

Isaac Moses

@MonicaCellio Thanks. I think that's the right way to leave it.

Ali

How can it be locked when people have answered it and @DoubleAA objected tothe rollback

Monica Cellio

6:52 PM

@IsaacMoses wait, it looks like a locked question can't be answered, or at least I can't. Can you check that? If it can't be answered I'll re-close.

DhoweedYaAgov

@MonicaCellio is there a thread on the forum which disguses that claim that @ali is making regarding rising a prophet from our brothers so i can show him instead of bickering here?

Isaac Moses

@MonicaCellio I have no "answer" button. But why close? That means something different from locking. As it is, I think it's an appropriate-enough question, so why brand it as not one? The answers are still editable, FTR.

DhoweedYaAgov

@ali judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/26363/…

Monica Cellio

@Ali I've reviewed the history again. You edited to add inappropriate content, it was rolled back, and you did it again. That's when I rolled back your change (for the second time) and locked it. If I unlock the post you will be able to do that again. Can you give me a reason to think you won't do so?

DhoweedYaAgov

well look at that you already asked the question...

Monica Cellio

6:55 PM

@DhoweedYaAgov I don't remember, sorry -- I know I've seen discussion, but whether it was here, in questions, in comments, or what I've lost track of.

Ali

@MonicaCellio the edit was essential as people asked fr proofs like @DhoweedYaAgov

Monica Cellio

@IsaacMoses ok. The question as it stands is a legitimate question, and it has a good answer. You're right that marking it as closed sends a different message. Open + not answerable is ok.

Isaac Moses

@MonicaCellio IMO, the question is what it is, and it's got valid answers. It's best left alone. Unlocking it (or even entertaining doing so) would just mean time wasted.

Ali

and thequestion roll back was valid

Monica Cellio

@Ali the edit was noise. Quran is not a valid source here.

Ali

6:57 PM

But the question is about muslims and their belifs

Monica Cellio

@Ali my rollback was valid. Yours was not. Generally speaking, getting into an edit war without engaging in a real discussion of the issues will not lead to good results.

Ali

Hence to substantiate the premise i had to use it

DhoweedYaAgov

@ali no one cares what muslims believe because it has not basis in judaism

Isaac Moses

5

A: How is it possible for Muslims to be classified as Gentiles even if they Don't deem Torah to be corrupt and have Abrahimic Lineage?

In Judaism, someone is considered a gentile (or Jew) not based on his beliefs or actions. Being a Jew is having a status that attaches to a person under very specific circumstances; without those circumstances, he's a gentile. Specifically, to be a Jew one must be born to a Jewish mother or under...

Monica Cellio

@Ali muslim beliefs are off-topic here. Stop it.

Isaac Moses

6:59 PM

@Ali You got answers explaining that belief is irrelevant to the question you posed. Editing the question to say more about belief adds nothing.

Monica Cellio

@Ali, you want to know why muslims are gentiles and not Jews. We have told you that over and over and over again: it's not about belief. It's about either matrilineal ancestry or legitimate conversion. Muslims as a class have a claim to neither. Open and shut. There is nothing to talk about here.

Ali

@MonicaCellio ofcourse i am not discussing muslim belifs

DhoweedYaAgov

But the question is about muslims and their belifs Hence to substantiate the premise i had to use it-ali

Monica Cellio

@Ali see what @IsaacMoses said. Your beliefs about whether you're a gentile are irrelevant. Adding more about your beliefs does not change that.

Ali

@DhoweedYaAgov I was asked for it

anyways i also claimed huge number of Muslims have a matrineal descent too

DhoweedYaAgov

7:02 PM

@ali doesnt matter what i asked. because what i asked is bout muslim belief, your questions has muslims beliefs in it, it is not judaism related but islam related

Ali

and i had posted many evidences for that

huge number of Jewish tribes had embraced Islam

mostly among palestianians and Afghanis

Monica Cellio

@Ali that is very unlikely, but also irrelevant. If you keep basing questions on islam we will keep closing them. If you keep trying to advance an agenda here in chat we will boot you out.

Ali

@MonicaCellio I have detailed evidences for that but its irrelevant here!

Monica Cellio

@Ali it is. So we're done talking about this.

Ali

ok

bye

Isaac Moses

7:10 PM

@MonicaCellio Hopefully he has satisfied himself that he's beaten us intellectually, for once and for all. If he comes in here again to repeat off-topic arguments he's already made here, I suggest you just go ahead and boot him (and that non-mod chatters flag for mods' attention).

DhoweedYaAgov

7:28 PM

@DoubleAA chayas.com/dikduk1.htm discussion on letters. according to these guys they refute rasag.

Double AA

@IsaacMoses @MonicaCellio IINM locking an answer locks only the answer, but locking a question locks it and all its answers.

Isaac Moses

@DoubleAA, hi. Could you please delete from chat.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/8432580#8432580 to chat.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/8432688#8432688 ?

DhoweedYaAgov

@DoubleAA thoughts on info on the site i posted?

Isaac Moses

@DoubleAA Nope. I've got edit links for the answers there. They put me through to the edit screen.

Double AA

@IsaacMoses IIM.

Isaac Moses

7:31 PM

:8432804 You can do that here? Cool. Thanks. Didn't mean to ignore your presence.

Double AA

@IsaacMoses mods are mods in all of chat

Al Ummat مجاهد

@IsaacMoses no problem :) pretend I am not here, I am just dealing with some business in the background :)

Seth J

@IsaacMoses @MonicaCellio, why not just delete it? (Sorry, I'm still catching up.)

Isaac Moses

@SethJ It's OK as is and has valid, upvoted answers.

Seth J

@IsaacMoses OK as is?

DhoweedYaAgov

7:34 PM

@DoubleAA do you know where in yarushalmi brochoth it brings davening like in bavli brochoth lamad dol

Isaac Moses

@SethJ Good enough, at least, to not necessitate any further interaction with it, which is good, because it's wasted enough time already

Seth J

@IsaacMoses I'll concede your last point.

Double AA

@DhoweedYaAgov "lamadh dol" no dagesh

@DhoweedYaAgov no i do not

DhoweedYaAgov

8:18 PM

@DoubleAA did you check that site out?

Seth J

8:35 PM

Thanks for the edit @IsaacMoses.

Isaac Moses

@SethJ np

@DoubleAA (continuing from here), have you ever corrected a leining based on something like misordered mercha/tipcha?

Double AA

@IsaacMoses Yes. Last week actually.

ויקרא בשם השם

There are some other ones that I've heard as examples

כל צפור כל כנף

Isaac Moses

(Boy, don't get armchair grammarians started if you want quiet any time soon.)

Double AA

לאלוקי אביו יצחק

Isaac Moses

@DoubleAA "I'd like to thank my parents, Ayn Rand and God." (lehavdil)

@DoubleAA Nice. How'd the B"K take it?

Double AA

8:43 PM

I admit the gabbai has to be on the ball to get it promptly

@IsaacMoses He heard what I said I ignored it. I wasn't happy. We talked after.

Granted for Rashi it doesn't make a difference, but other rishonim differ.

Isaac Moses

@IsaacMoses (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serial_comma#Resolving_ambiguity)

Double AA

@IsaacMoses More like "To the-God-of-my-father: Isaac."

I thought you were a patriarch not a deity.

Isaac Moses

@DoubleAA I wish people would stop getting confused on this score

Double AA

The reader last week did get the dagesh chazak right קול ענּות אנכי שמע

That's the only dagesh chazak that most people ever do

Seth J

@DoubleAA Do you have Semichah? You are a wealth of knowledge, and I'm curious if you are a rabbi or a student (or both?).

(I've already concluded you must spend most of your time engaged in Talmud Torah.)

Double AA

8:52 PM

@SethJ Given the dichotomy, I'm much more on the student side.

msh210

►

Isaac Moses

@DoubleAA Rabbinical student? Avreich?

msh210

@DoubleAA @IsaacMoses I've wondered about l'haalos ner tamid -- a baal k'ria here always says l'haalos, ner tamid, which -- if tamid is an adj. and can modify ner -- changes the meaning of the phrase. (It should be l'haalos ner, tamid.)

But I don't know whether tamid is an adj. that can modify ner, so haven't corrected him during the k'ria.

Double AA

@msh210 dikdukian.weeklyshtikle.com/2010/05/blog-post.html

msh210

@DoubleAA oh, you found my blog.

(kidding)

Double AA

8:56 PM

@msh210 Na I get it emailed to me when there are new postings.

So I know the name (of the email account) of the owner.

Isaac Moses

@msh210 I think I've gotten the author to visit MY at one point.

Double AA

@msh210 "Is this a kebe'ah?" (holding an egg)

msh210

@DoubleAA yeah :-)

Double AA

I once had a friend who was eating olives at a meal. He looked up and said to me, "I was just about to eat a couple extra at once to make sure I had a kezayis."

We both laughed :)

Isaac Moses

@IsaacMoses @msh210 I have.

msh210

8:59 PM

@IsaacMoses Are the subdomains by one author?

Isaac Moses

@msh210 Dikdukian and Shtickle are. There's at least one other that isn't.

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