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1:33 AM
@DhoweedYaAgov Not sure what you mean
@IsaacMoses did u check my later comments
@DhoweedYaAgov abt hijabs? OK
@DhoweedYaAgov thanks for clarifying.
2:15 AM
@dhoweedyaagov do you have any insights to add here:
Q: Did any Achronim Write Books Comparing Arabic to Hebrew?

Matthew MillerDid any achronim write books comparing Arabic to Hebrew?

no im sorry i dont study acharonim
i read a beautiful piece today though from a user in here it wasn oticed by double aa
R' Qafih might count, no?
bout the malochim coming from bovel and jews didnt know those malochim before bovel found in yarushalmi
it was an amazing thing i need to start learning yerushalmi i picked one up in eichlers the other day then put it back :(
im not sure if mori gafih compared the 2 languages, he just translated the works from arabic to hebrew
Yerushalmi is tricky. Get a Sokoloff dictionary of Palestinian Aramaic if you decide to try Yerushalmi.
The dictionary will probably cost more than a set of Yer., though.
Although I think Artscroll has an English edition now.
yea i was looking at the artscroll but it was really mamash a whole cholent there
because there are many girsas adn many rabbonim commented on each of their girsas contradicting the other girsas or something along the lines, and artscroll brings the different opinions from the girsas on the bottom, so you have to fend for yourself on which girsa you want to follow, although from what i learned regarding a certain topic in yarushalmi the artscroll went with the "right" girsa according to me
but then again who knows if they went straight throughout the gemoroh that wait or they picked and chose which pieces they wanted
2:23 AM
I think my non-Artscroll set cost me 250 NIS, and my Sokoloff cost me about $80-90 on sale.
i thought jastrow was good
I usually use this analogy...
Marcus Jastrow was to semitic languages (especially Aramaic) as Sir Isaac Newton was to physics...
Michael Sokoloff is as Albert Einstein.
regarding arabic and hebrew
rabbeinu saadya jaon compared them in a commentary on sefer yassira
Yes, but he is not an Acharon. Oh well.
I'm off. Daf Yomi and my bed are both calling me.
lailoh tov
1 hour later…
3:45 AM
Q: How should we collect questions and answers for the haggadah?

Monica CellioWe want to be able to crowd-source the editing of questions and answers for the haggadah supplement. We can't just take questions "as-is"; among things, links won't work on paper, there may be answers that are somewhat repetitive, and we probably don't want to bring in comments. But we don't wa...

4:37 AM
@DoubleAA Thanks.
5:07 AM
I saw a polish goyka have her name tattooed in her foot in hebrew. Does this pertain to anything in judaism?
On her foot not in. Can't Edit on a phone
1 hour later…
6:33 AM
A: Mi Yodeya Haggadah Proposal

Double AASome of the work might involve effort that is not onsite or can't be done through meta posts. I don't know if/what this may entail. If you are interested in potentially putting in some time to help (and agree to let a mod email you at your registered email address for this purpose), then please v...

8 hours later…
2:17 PM
@DhoweedYaAgov What's a goyka?
3:00 PM
Here's some weirdness.
A: Why aren't any of the main American brands of chewing gum kosher?

ShalomFrom the editor @kashrut.com: Companies make products kosher that are easy to make kosher main ingredient is gum base http://www.ok.org/Content.asp?ID=167 http://www.kosherquest.org/book.php?id=CHEWING_GUM.htm http://www.ou.org/kosher/daf/advanced/gum.html To summarize from tho...

Three URLs in a blockquote. The last one isn't a link.
But it is a link in the edit view.
It's also a link in the revision history.
^^ Three URLs, and all three are links.
3:13 PM
@TRiG Silly parser. Interesting
1 hour later…
4:17 PM
What @msh210 said. First person singular in the question is meant to be read as a narrative to make the question sound more imminent. I did not wrestle with this question at work this morning on a personal level. — Seth J 51 secs ago
Want me to edit it?
@SethJ I have no particular desire that you do so. If you want, of course. Nice comment, though.
5:18 PM
@msh210, @MonicaCellio or @DoubleAA, whichever one of you reviewed my most recent flag, I apologize; I totally missed which answer it was duplicating. I just saw it deleted and thought, "Well this doesn't do much as an answer, but it's useful information." I just didn't properly process the administrative note (I skimmed it and didn't really think about it).
5:31 PM
@TRiG, @IsaacMoses Fixed.
5:58 PM
Hey all (pinging @IsaacMoses, @DoubleAA, and @msh210 in particular since you've spoken up on meta): do we think it's practical to move to the "propose content" phase of the haggadah project by Sunday? I'm thinking that since many of us work or are in school, Sunday might be some people's best day of the week to work on this, so if we can use this Sunday that would be good. But I don't want to push if we're still not settled on style and mechanics. What do y'all think?
@MonicaCellio Yes. If we're going to get this done by Pesach, we need to maintain momentum. There doesn't seem to be much disagreement in the meta threads to date. I think we can trust ourselves to get the format and guidelines right enough by then to work with.
@HodofHod Thanks. Just by adding a space, eh?
@IsaacMoses Two, yep.
@HodofHod I will be very disappointed if there isn't something in Chabad literature to answer this question.
(If you'll excuse my singling you out as someone who's posted Chabad-based answers in the past and happens to be here. :)
@IsaacMoses There is. What and where, I can't remember. Honestly, this is something I never personally struggled with. :) | :(
@IsaacMoses thanks for your comment there, by the way. I've had this post fermenting in the back of my head for a week, dithering between asking and not because it's, err, kind of personal and vulnerable and all, but in the end I opted for trying actually get an answer. :-)
6:11 PM
@MonicaCellio Solution: ditch ALL the comfortable things!
@HodofHod yeah.... um, no. :-)
@MonicaCellio Thanks. I'm certain that you're not the only person who's faced this issue. (Actually, as you note, Tanach records an instance of it being a mass problem.) So, it's an excellent question for us to host here, hopefully with answers. If we get good enough answers soon enough, it could be in the Nirtza section of our Hagada! (Were you thinking that?)
@HodofHod I guess that was the Chofetz Chaim's approach.
@MonicaCellio Not even a sliver of seriousness implied in that, btw. :)
@IsaacMoses Really? Asceticism?
@IsaacMoses I wasn't actually thinking about the haggadah, but you're right! If it gets good answers.
@HodofHod yeah, I saw the smiley. :-)
@HodofHod Well, not exactly on-point, but the story I'm thinking of is repeated here. Ctrl-F furniture
6:15 PM
No one-boxing? Oh well.
The Chofetz Chaim was really more on a "this world is the antechamber" theme, but my mind keeps wanting to make it about discomfort with the diaspora.
@HodofHod laugh I've seen output from that before but never knew where it came from!
@HodofHod <-- @Menachem, can you help (again, please excuse the singling out)?
6:18 PM
@IsaacMoses Hm?
@IsaacMoses I've heard that story, but I always thought he was just really poor.
@HodofHod Just extending my foray into chassidic profiling.
@IsaacMoses Was it the beard that gave it away?
@HodofHod I was careful to say that my reason was a pattern of Chabad-based answers :)
@HodofHod <digging myself deeper> That sounds rather Litvish of you.
@IsaacMoses Why? As far as I know, he was really poor. I seem to remember stories of his wife running the store and him sitting and learning all day. (And then closing the store because of competition, starting to get fuzzy at this point)
@SethJ It was me. No problem.
6:24 PM
@HodofHod He [according to the mayseh] said it was for saintly religious reasons, and you're rationalizing.
22 mins ago, by Isaac Moses
@MonicaCellio Yes. If we're going to get this done by Pesach, we need to maintain momentum. There doesn't seem to be much disagreement in the meta threads to date. I think we can trust ourselves to get the format and guidelines right enough by then to work with.
@IsaacMoses Ah. In my mind the situation was that he was poor. He had no motivation to change that (as others might) since this world is only an antechamber, and this is what his statement means. I don't necessarily think he chose to be poor. (Open to corrections though)
Does the new site search have an OR operator, and I just can't figure out the syntax, or did they really leave that out?
@HodofHod OK, I take it back.
@HodofHod @IsaacMoses I don't think it means he chose to be poor at all. It means he chose to live without excess consumption. For all we know (from that story) he may have been boarding riches beneath his floorboards^W dirt.
@msh210 use --- on both sides
6:30 PM
@HodofHod Thank you!
^W works too though I suppose.
I talked to Joel, and he's thrilled about this idea (having a pdf/print out) for the site content.
Hey @Jin, long time no see! How you been?
@HodofHod great, busy as usual :)
If we want to get this done by Pesach, we're a bit crunched on time, but I think it's still doable.
we need just to get the text content ready very soon. I'm going to pass the content you provide to a really talented freelance print designer I've been working with. I think she'll make it fantastic looking.
@Jin ooh! I hadn't imagined that we'd get that kind of help in such a short timeframe. Thanks! How much lead time would this person need for the content? Can we provide sample content early (to work out layout etc) and final content later? Assume we want thsi to be available for download/printing by at the latest early Mon March 25 but preferably Sunday the 24th. (First seder is Monday night.)
@Jin btw, please let Joel know that we'd love it if he wanted to contribute content for this.
@MonicaCellio well, if we treat this as a "thin book," I'd imagine we'd have a forward/intro section, about the site and its history. then table of content for the selected questions. then an end section with site URL, twitter account etc.
are you seeing this as a physical print out or a PDF to email friends and let them print out? this affects how it will be designed.
if it's a physical thing, then we're not bound by the standard A4/Letter paper size.
6:42 PM
@Jin PDF that people can print out (at the last minute, this year :-) ). In the future, when we can spend more time on it, it'd be fabulous to have an actual physical book that we could distribute, but that seems ambitious for this year.
Also, no one will be using the online PDF during the seder (because we don't use electricity on holidays), so it has to end up as hard copy.
I think a PDF print out may be the most feasible at this point. but yeah, it'd be great to have a thicker book later.
one thing about PDF though, the US uses Letter size, UK uses A4...
and I'm sure other countries may have a different standard paper size?
@Jin A4 is slightly longer and narrower than US letter, right? Can we produce something that will work for either?
@Jin, have you seen this meta post where we're talking about compiling the content (formatting etc)?
Letter is 8.5 by 11 inches (215.9 mm × 279.4 mm). A4 is 8.3 in × 11.7 inches (210mm × 297 mm).
@Jin I don't know what they use, but I think we should check what the standard is in Israel as well. It's probably our largest non-Anglo userbase.
@DoubleAA According to en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paper_size, Israel uses A-series (so I assume A4).
6:48 PM
8 by 11 inches
@Jin Yeah 8.3 (or 8) by 11 should fit on either size paper, I'd think
yeah I can just make the content box slightly smaller so it'd fit on any of the more popular sizes. I'm not too concerned now.
btw, how many questions do you think about having for this?
@MonicaCellio I just read it. I think it's fine. Though I prefer one question per sheet, so it's nice for formatting. Also, for design purpose I think it'd be great to have the same visual consistency in the PDF as on the site. Obviously we don't need voting arrows etc.
@Jin great question. Now it's time to find out how far off all our expectations are. :-) Personally I'm imagining that with the people who've volunteered to help so far, we'll end up being able to do 2-3 dozen. (So who's laughing at me and in which direction? :-) )
but for the question title, it'd look nicer if it's in the fancy box.
@Jin one question per page is what I had in mind; it'll be easier if we can keep any one question from going over one page.
6:53 PM
@MonicaCellio if it's just a straight copy and paste of then it's not too much effort. however, if you're thinking about adding additional Hebrew text it may take a bit longer.
Agree on style. We have to assume that people will print in black & white, so keep that in mind, but for those who do print in color, let's make it nice for them.
@MonicaCellio yep.
@Jin yes, any visual elements from the site that can help here, we should use. The site is beautiful; let's share!
I imagine the first sheet in the PDF will just be pure graphical. the site's background pattern with a bigger logo in the middle.
then 2nd page is the intro.
then questions etc.
I think this is a great starter project for an eventual physical publication.
Yup, that's what I'm imagining too. And a place at the end for contributor credits. Think about where you want to put URLs for questions and users -- on the individual question page?
6:56 PM
@MonicaCellio yes, on the very bottom per page, almost like a footnote.
@Jin some of the content has Hebrew (which is already on the site). An experiment with Word 2010 last night suggested that that'll cut/paste just fine. So we need to support that, but we're (or at least I'm) not looking for a lot of new Hebrew text.
@MonicaCellio I don't think URLs for users is necessaryif URLs for questions is there. We canjust say (in the intro or something) "see the question URLs for lists of contributors". But IANAL.
@Jin, sounds good. If there is anything in my proposed template that we should change to make things easier for you, please speak up. I'm hoping to get people actually working on this by Sunday.
I think the visual design part is really just on the first 2 pages. the rest of the question pages should have a fairly simple template.
@msh210 I'd been thinking of a compromise there: a contriubors' list in the end with names and URLs, but only the question URLs on the individual question pages.
6:58 PM
@MonicaCellio do we need the heading "What is your question?"
That means we also have a handy place to list/link people who helped compile but aren't represented in the content.
can each page just simply start with the question title, followed by "asked by [name]"?
@Jin that's meant to be replaced with the actual question title; scroll down for the examples. The template at the top is template + instructions.
@Jin by default we were going to do plain boring text pages, so any improvement on that is helpful. :-)
@MonicaCellio I see. yeah I think the format is good.
@Jin ok, thanks. I initially designed it so the HTML could be scraped, then Isaac pointed out that it can just be cut/pasted from the browser rendering. So either way...
7:00 PM
If we can get the content finalized by the 18th I think that'd be great.
@MonicaCellio Sounds good
I'll spend some time that week to work on this.
@msh210 @IsaacMoses @DoubleAA - do you think we can have content assembed by the 22nd?
each additional question won't take long to do since they're in a template format.
(We can kick off today if that helps, though I don't know if it does.)
7:01 PM
@MonicaCellio it can be as late as 22nd.
@Jin thanks! Those few days will almost certainly make a difference.
what I'll need for the questions is the edited version for this PDF. That way all I have to do is copy and paste, and change some formatting.
@Jin Is it allowed to say in the beginning something like: all URLs are pages of mi.yodeya.com/q/ or mi.yodeya.com/users/ and then just list q ID numbers and user ID numbers on each page? That sounds neater IMO
All: here is Wikisource's text of the Haggadah he.wikisource.org/wiki/…
yeah. we can have a footnotes section on the bottom each question page. displaying asker/answers' profile urls, and the question url itself on the site.
@Jin, how does it feel to consistently be the bearer of awesome news?
7:07 PM
@IsaacMoses feels good man! :)
ok back to work for me. just ping me if you have any questions, and I'll be keeping an eye on Meta posts.
@Jin excellent! Thanks for the great news and all the help!
7:26 PM
@MonicaCellio Are you sure 24th/25th is early enough for release? Many people are heads-down in Pesach prep at that point and far from the Internet. (OTOH, what's feasible is feasible.) I strongly suspect that working together, we can assemble sufficient content in a weekend.
@MonicaCellio I think a good goal would be one page per Seder element plus more for Magid, so 2 dozen seems about right.
@IsaacMoses I'd rather be done earlier, and was thinking we could ask people to work toward an earlier deadline on meta and see if we get it. :-)
Q: Haggadah project: collect links here

Monica CellioSoon we will kick off the content-submission phase of this project, asking people to prepare questions and answers for publication. We'll make separate meta posts (for different sections) for the prepared questions; this post is to collect candidate links so that (a) we can get a head start and ...

7:45 PM
@msh210 as this is now a different (and improved, IMHO) question, would it make sense delete the obsolete comments?
Q: Examples of Destruction of Idolatry in a Pagan Land

AliIdolatry is a great abomination which G-d wants abolished or nullified, hence I want to know whether the believing people of the past took an action against it even if they were in the minority. Are there examples, in Tanach or other traditional Jewish sources, of a prophet or his followers des...

@msh210, or do you think it's likely there'll be a rollback?
@SethJ I see no extant obsolete comments.
@msh210 I think the ones remaining are in response to my comment at the top (that there aren't any examples for what he was then looking for) - which I've just deleted..
@SethJ But they're also brief answers. Unless/until someone posts them as answers, they serve as... well, answers. Do you disagree?
@msh210 ok. I left a note to readers.
@msh210 Well, there are a lot of "what about this guy" comments that are uncharacteristic of the rest of our site. It might be more characteristic of the higher-traffic SE sites, not sure, but it seems weird to me.
@SethJ Any of them could be (in) an answer if written up. I suspect people aren't that interested in answering this question, is all -- possibly because they're worried the question will change substantially, possibly for another reason.
7:58 PM
@msh210 I agree with the entirety of your comment. It's just not what I'm used to seeing here (and maybe it just stands out to me because I've seen the revisions and the other comments).
@SethJ In fact, I wish you'd rewrite your comment about Avram. It's a good example to bear in mind.
8:09 PM
Q: Haggadah project: collect links here

Monica CellioSoon we will kick off the content-submission phase of this project, asking people to prepare questions and answers for publication. We'll make separate meta posts (for different sections) for the prepared questions; this post is to collect candidate links so that (a) we can get a head start and ...

> In shulchan orech: the answer http://judaism.stackexchange.com/a/16010 plus a question that more closely matches it than the one that it was penned as an answer to

Are we doing this?
8:22 PM
@msh210 hadn't thought about that, but why not, if someone is up for doing the extra work?
@MonicaCellio Not sure if "why not" was rhetorical, but I'll answer it: The idea is that it's a Q&A hagada from the site, and, if someone goes to the URL, he won't find the Q we used.
@sethj a goyka is a non jewish girl
@msh210 How's about I answer it instead?
A: Examples of Destruction of Idolatry in a Pagan Land

Seth JThere are several examples throughout Jewish literature and history. Two of the most famous are below. One of the more famous incidents is actually not from the Torah, though it is about Avram as a young child. According to Jewish tradition, Abram's father Terah owned an idol shop, where he sol...

@DhoweedYaAgov With a 'k'?
@SethJ Thanks.
@sethj russian speakers pronounce it as goyka
8:28 PM
@DhoweedYaAgov Ish Rusi haya... ushmo Dhoweed YaAgov... ish Temani.
@msh210 oh. Yeah, I see your point. Maybe for this year we should focus on content that's fully supported on the site?
@MonicaCellio I don't know. That's why I raised the issue here.
@msh210 ani lo rusi ani yahudi
@DhoweedYaAgov Is non-denial of "Temani" admission?
@DhoweedYaAgov I thought you were Muslim.
8:30 PM
@msh210 but having now reviewed the question more closely, what's wrong with just using it straight? Remember that we aren't constraining ourselves for the haggadah by votes and check-marks.
@msh210 what lol
@SethJ astagfurallah
(@IsaacMoses, too soon?)
@MonicaCellio Because the answers is a better answer to another question than it is to the question there. (IMO anyway.)
@msh210 He has already directly denied that he is Teimoni.
@DhoweedYaAgov I said you're Rusi and Temani. You denied being Rusi. Does that mean you admit you're Temani?
@SethJ Yeah, I know.
8:32 PM
@msh210 im not rusi or teimoni im jewish
@msh210 So now he's denied both. I'm curious what part of Judea he hails from.
@DhoweedYaAgov I'm just messing with you. ;-)
@sethj im curious as well
@SethJ As am I. :-)
@msh210 If you recall my first comment, it seems I've now Tiyuvtaed myself.
@SethJ :-)
8:38 PM
i wanted to buy artscrolls yarushalmi mesechet megilloh but we all know 40bucks for an artscroll is not worth it.
went to pinters bought 2 yerushalmis shaviyith and tarumoth for 40
brand new condition sitll has tags on it
too bad it wasnt megilloh
oh snap its the limited edition one too lol, says presented to the quests at the artscroll mesorah shabbos retreat
10 12 2006 the parsippany hilton
1 hour later…
9:55 PM
Nomination for submission:
A: "If God had not delivered us from Egypt we would still be slaves"? Really?

ShalomYou need a more precise translation. Had God not taken us out of Egypt, then we, our children, and grandchildren would have been indebted to Pharaoh. Hebrew me-she-ubad, as used regarding real estate on lien for paying potential debts. Had things worked out for our release in other fashions, w...

@SethJ I'd tell you to edit it in here, but it's there already.
@IsaacMoses Coolio. I've been busy lately. And tired.
@SethJ I worked that one up as an example (at @IsaacMoses's suggestion), so as soon as we have the posts for submissions up I'll move it over. Where, of course, you're welcome to edit it further. :-)
@IsaacMoses Wow, that is poor audio quality. Or maybe it's at my end.
I wouldn't have mentioned it, but the quality is poor enough (here) that I can't understand what he's saying.
10:59 PM
Have a good day, y'all.
@msh210 Truth be told, I haven't listened to that file myself, but I'm pretty sure I heard him give a version of that talk in person a long, long time ago

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