V'dibarta Bam - 2012-04-24

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1:31 AM

@jake Seeing Hebrew partially vowelized makes me cringe. (Except when, say, a single vowel is added to a word to clarify what word it is. here, though, it's just for style.) To clarify, @Jin: if you were vowelizing the Hebrew phrase, then there'd be a dot beneath the mem, a dot above the vav, two dots beneath the dalet, and a line beneath the ayin. Having only one of those looks, IMO, bad. I may be alone, though.

2:14 AM

Hey @IsaacMoses, thoughts on any/all of the above?

@HodofHod Backreading the last 24 hours now. Stand by.

...standing by

2:30 AM

@msh210 Yes, that was me. It seems like someone looking at Pesach tags would want to see all the related one, though some could be see-alsos instead of first-order entries. In the case of matzah, though, yes it would fit under halacha or mitzvot, but doesn't practically everything? You'd need a sub-hierarchy for holidays at the least, at which point the question is whether to look in holidays or halacha/holidays. No reason it can't be in both, but I think it's valuable under holidays too.

@Jin I think it does make sense for [at least some of] the Hebrew letters to spell something relevant, and I think that "mi yodeya" makes the most sense.

@IsaacMoses I agree. What are your thoughts on just spelling out Mi Yodeya in Hebrew letters? that way, the leaves can stay as leaves.

Or maybe "mitzvah" is really "other mitzvot"?

@msh210 partially vowelized Hebrew feels odd to me too. But instead of omitting them all, if we're going to use Hebrew for the logo I'd like to include all the vowels. My reason: not everybody understands Hebrew, but a lot of people can sound it out, and when they do they'll recognize the phrase from the haggadah. That's better than "it's some Hebrew word I guess", right? We want to be accessible to the beginners too.

2:47 AM

@msh210 Fair enough. Although it doesn't seem to me that it would look bad at all if just the vav was vowelized (maybe because it is an external-vav-vowelization (there's a hebrew term for that that I can't remember at the moment)), it would be just as well if the whole two words were vowelized, as the dot on the vav will be the only one on top of the word. So long as all this is helpful in the design of the logo in the first place.

@Jin regarding English and Hebrew, I agree with @msh210 that it would be good for the logo (or perhaps the top site banner?) to indicate how to spell the URL in English. Would it be impossible to incorporate both English and Hebrew? Maybe we're trying to cram too much into the logo that could be represented on the banner?

@Jin Yes, I love the idea of Rashi script. It adds distinctiveness and a flavor of scholarship.

@ShmuelBrin Not at all exactly the same thing, but AskMoses provides a little of the same sort of outlet.

@msh210 @Jin Here are the letters with their vowels just so everyone is clear about all the dots:

user image

@MonicaCellio Good point. On the other hand, if the words are presented in proximity to the English transliteration, it's not as big a deal. Also, this is probably one of the more recognizable phrases out there.

(back in a little while)

@Jin And to preempt your question, that font is called Narkisim.

@IsaacMoses AskMoses, as much as I love it, will often not bring sources, and will only bring one opinion. This works well when you're trying not to over-complicate things, but I think this site is pretty unique.

2:57 AM

@IsaacMoses if the transliteration is included then it's not a big deal, but I thought @Jin was talking about one language or the other, not both? And yes it's one of the more-recognizable Hebrew phrases, but if you're somebody who doesn't know much Hebrew and sees a Hebrew phrase without vowels, you may well punt before really trying to figure it out. There was a time when I did. (And by the way, I was at a seder this year where several people were reading from translit.)

Adding the vowels costs little and aids a class of prospective users. If this is the only form of the name then I think it's worth that cost for that benefit. Again, if we're also transliterating "mi yodeya" then it's not so important.

user image

that's a quick attempt of adding the hebrew letters as leaves, but keeping the title in English. i didn't replace all the leaves, I think that may make it hard to notice the "Mi Yodeya" in the tree?

what do you guys think?

(i also reduced #s of total leaves too)

@Jin cool! You might consider making the yud (first letter of yodea) red rather than gold; it's such a little letter that it's a bit harder to see here, and since it's also the first letter of the word it might be worth highlighting. Just a thought, and note that I'm a software developer and the designers who work with me don't let me make graphics. :-)

@MonicaCellio that's a valid point.

so besides the coloring, is it noticeable to you that there's a "mi yodeya" in the tree?

@Jin very much so

I don't mean in the first glance, this logo is designed to reveal more meanings as people look at it more.

3:06 AM

@HodofHod I agree! :)

@Jin definitely, yes.

@Jin Yes. It would be more subtle if the other leaves were more slender to be closer to the shapes of the letters. Also, do you think it would be good to spread them out more along the width of the tree, with other leaves in between?

@IsaacMoses I can mix them with regular leaves, but I was afraid that it may not be as obvious that "mi yodeya" is in it?

@Jin I think the 2/4 distribution looks a little off balance. Maybe you could have the letters curving around the top of the question mark (ie just below the branches they are currently above)?

@DoubleAA let me try!

3:13 AM

@IsaacMoses I kind of like the "hey wait there's something there" of the current design and worry that if it's spread out we might lose that to "oh cool, Hebrew letters" without seeing more.

@Jin I think they're different enough from the other leaves that it's clear that they're something and that to anyone familiar with Hebrew letters, it's clear that they're that. Once we get that far, if the horizontal order is in the order of "mi yodeya," then the person who wants to figure it out will figure it out pretty easily, even if there's space and leaves in between

here's a version based on @DoubleAA's suggestion:

user image

@Jin I think this is both more subtle and more organic (with the letters hanging perhaps like fruits or pods) than the previous one.

@IsaacMoses I think so too.

@Jin nice! And I agree with @IsaacMoses about being more organic.

Gotta drop off now. Thanks for sharing drafts with us @Jin! Great work!

3:33 AM

@MonicaCellio Sounds good.

@Jin Beautiful.

@Jin I agree.

@Jin I had actually been assuming that the letters would hug the branch below (ie concave down), but this is also very good. I like @Isaac's analogy to fruit.

yes I think they look more organic in that arrangement.

user image

^ regular leaves, with logotype in Hebrew.

of course that version lost the dot in the question mark, which I'll explore some more. but it should give you an idea how the logo as a whole looks with the title in Hebrew.

@Jin Those letters go pretty well with the tree shapes. What about making them into a root system?

@IsaacMoses I think I know what you mean. Let me try.

Attention all kabbalists: judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/15420/…

@Jin Also, that tree seems pretty short of leaves compared to how it started. Is it alive?

3:44 AM

@DoubleAA i can add more leaves! :)

@Jin Looks nice, but the greater accessibility of the English, and its providing URL info, still make it a better choice in my mind. Plus IMO the English (which is wider than the tree) looks nicer than the Hebrew (~as wide as the tree) does there.

@msh210 yes. also the "o" fits the question mark scheme too.

I don't have a strong preference either way, to have the site title in English or Hebrew. That's a community call. I just want to present all the options available to see how they look in practice.

2

user image

@IsaacMoses is that what you meant by "root system?"

@msh210 would the picture look better if the letters would be a bit bigger and spread apart a bit further (so that it would be wider than the tree)?

@ShmuelBrin Dunno. Would have to see it. Which I guess is what @Jin just said. ("I just want to present all the options available to see how they look in practice.") :-)

@Jin I was thinking more of some roots radiating downward out of the trunk, terminating in the letters.

3:54 AM

@msh210 meta.judaism.stackexchange.com/a/1004/883

@HodofHod thanks for starting. I've gtg now though

user image

@IsaacMoses like that?

@Jin In orientation, yes, but to look right, the letters would have to be much more integrated into roots coming down.

@IsaacMoses I think I know what you mean now. but by doing so, it'd increase the height of the logo by quite a bit. on the actual site, the logo would be smaller in size than what I've shown you here. I think it'd be too tall for site use.

it'd make the header too tall, and push the actual Q&A content down. also there's the top nav too, taking up space.

so far, my favorite version is the Hebrew letters as "fruits" with the English title.

@Jin Mine, too, though I still think it's worth trying spreading the letters out more, maybe still with them hanging as fruits.

4:11 AM

@IsaacMoses sure. I'll tweak it more.

user image

^ pay no attention to the design in that mockup. I just want to show you how big the logo will be in the actual site, roughly.

awww

;)

@Jin ... and given that some people like to complain about how much space the top banner takes up ...

@Jin More silver badges than bronze? And 2 Gold Badges??? Impressive!

@IsaacMoses I thought about the orientation of the top header layout. Nothing's set in stone yet. However, given the logo design, I feel it'd be more flattering if the logo is centered, therefore the nav menu would have to be below it too.

@Jin I think the mock-up you just showed looks quite attractive

4:19 AM

the top header background can have some subtle branch/leaves pattern in it too, than just a solid color.

@IsaacMoses thanks. it's a temporary one that I used for another site. But I picture the overall color scheme would be similar

if you're interested, the template I used was for our TeX site. tex.stackexchange.com

@Jin Fellow text-lovers :)

As for the actual site design, I most likely will stick with a warm, earthy toned color scheme. I'll use some paper texture, but not overly vintage.

@Jin Can we try moving the lower-right most yellow leaf down a little towards the "ey". Not as far down as the red-leaf-dot, but a little lower. I think it will help the red-leaf-dot blend in more as a leaf from the tree, and maybe add a little balance. A little more of an actively falling look. Just an idea...

@DoubleAA sure

btw, I remember someone suggested using the Star of David for the favorite star icon, is that a good idea?

what do you think up/down vote icons should be?

they need to be very obvious that they're arrows, so probably nothing too elaborate and ambiguous

@Jin Tal Fishman, AviD, and myself all suggested the star. I'm for it, but what does everybody else think ( I think dave is against it)

4:34 AM

@Jin No objection here

@IsaacMoses @HodofHod great, thanks.

oh I don't think we have a meta thread that brainstorms for site's 404/error/captcha images yet.

now may be a good time to do it.

8

A: Design for Judaism.SE

Just my two cents... Perhaps for the 404 page we can have some sort of reference to searching for chametz before passover, and the idea of 10 missing pieces of bread.

typically, I keep those images light hearted. For example, for other SE sites' Captcha page, I always use a robot or animal for the "Are you human" message.

@Jin Golem!! Definitely a golem

:D

@HodofHod any pictures?

user image

^ captcha image for rpg.se. a skeleton troll

or orc..

4:38 AM

@Jin You could try upending and splitting in half the "propeller" glyph from Talmud pages. See halfway down the left column of i.stack.imgur.com/Q2nra.jpg

this is the most recognizable golem I know of:

user image

user image

not serious, though

@HodofHod I gotta collect 'em all!

@IsaacMoses i think that's too long 'n narrow for an voting arrows though. plus, I've already planned to use the propeller as sidebar content box dividers.

@Jin Oh. Cool.

2

@Jin "If someone says I toiled but did not find, do not believe him. If he says I found but did not toil, do not believe him. If he says I toiled and I found, believe him," (Talmud: Megillah 6b).

... 404: YOU did not toil!

4:42 AM

user image

@IsaacMoses ha that's clever. maybe i'll just use that entire quote and plus what you said for the 404 page..

@IsaacMoses what about the hand pointing sign? It's in Jewish books

8

Q: What does this pointing hand symbol mean?

I've seen in the Shulchan Aruch the hand symbol ( ☜ ) appearing quite a few times. What does it do? Does it reference to mforshim on the side?

books-generally shulchan-aruch symbols-symbology

@ShmuelBrin Yeah, that's cool, if it's obvious enough. Though it may look a little tacky.

@ShmuelBrin FEH!!

user image

The only triangular Jewish object I can think of is a hamentashen (for arrows) but seems a little too goofy for me.

4:46 AM

@IsaacMoses But what image goes with it?

@HodofHod Could just be a book with those words (and maybe the original Hebrew), or maybe some sort of cartoon.

For the are you human page: what about a Noah's Ark 'groupshot' with only one human?

Or only one noticable large animal?

And an obvious missing space, of course.

@Jin @IsaacMoses here's my addition to Isaac's suggestion. Maybe we could have a comic of a large 404 with a guy searching on one side, and the afikoman is sticking out somewhere else.

@DoubleAA :) How about pre-Eve Adam interviewing all of the other animals, looking for a mate, per the Midrash?

@IsaacMoses ummmmmmmmmmmmmm

4:49 AM

In addition to the "toil" quote. (which is awesome)

@HodofHod That's for the 404 page I thought.

@ShmuelBrin Hey, the Midrash said it, not me.

@DoubleAA I'm saying both. There's usually a short line, and a funny picture/cartoon

@HodofHod @jin Afikoman: jaggedly broken half-matza, often in a flat cloth bag. OK example: etsy.com/listing/87334196/sale-afikomen-bag-hebrew-letters

@HodofHod IDK, I think that it looks tacky

4:54 AM

@ShmuelBrin superuser.com/404

@ShmuelBrin That's more OK on a 404 page

programmers.stackexchange.com/404

@HodofHod Ahh I had read your comment into Isaac and my mini-discussion about antediluvian themed captchas. My bad.

whatever happens, not this gis.stackexchange.com/404

@HodofHod doh! you just reminded me that i never made a real 404 image for GIS!

4:57 AM

user image

@Jin There's a couple sites that still need them

that was meant to be a place holder.

"Are you a human?"

What about this one? xkcd.com/404

@HodofHod yeah I think so. I need to go through them. some sites when launched, their communities didn't come up with good images, so I used placeholder images

4:59 AM

@Jin unix.stackexchange.com/404

unless that one is intentional

user image

@HodofHod not intentional. also that's the last trace of Sketchy on a live site I think.

CYLOR asks "Are you a human?"

user image

@IsaacMoses that's scary!

(Courtesy of chat.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/2553265#2553265)

5:05 AM

2

Q: P'sak halacha by AI?

How good does artificial intelligence need to be before we can turn to a robot for piskei halacha? The accepted reason that even the most knowledgeable people need to ask legal advice from poskim is that the poskim possess special situational knowledge, experience, and sensitivity that most or a...

halacha technology posek-psak-decisor-ruling

The map of the state of israel is relatively diamond-like (stretched somewhat vertically). If we sliced it horizontally through the middle, we could get two arrows, one up and one down.

user image

(bigquestionsonline.com/columns/david-gelernter/…)

@DoubleAA If you manipulate it like that, it'll probably be either hard to recognize as Israel or hard to recognize as an arrow

@Jin @IsaacMoses

@Jin The top and bottom handles of the sefer Torah could also make good up- and down-vote arrows. The fact that it's only one set of handles is not so bad, since it could recall a megilla. In fact, the number of votes could then be printed on the outside of the rolled-up scroll. — Isaac Moses Sep 18 '11 at 23:30

@HodofHod the problem is when the vote # becomes 2 or 3 digits..

@Jin Couldn't the parchment grow as neccasary?

3 digits?? Halevai we should have such tzoris!

2

:D

5:20 AM

@DoubleAA we have a fixed container width for the numbers. also, there's the high rep user/mod being able to click on the vote number to expand to up vs down vote counts too.

(loose translation: "If only we should have such problems!")

@HodofHod hey, you'll never know!

2

Q: Jewish Life and Learning self-evaluation: how ARE you doing?

Let's do another one of these. :) There are lots of metrics we can use to "measure" a site, and we do, but none of them matter as much as having a healthy and happy site full of interesting questions and expert answers. So, let's talk about site health. Specifically, your site health. Below yo...

discussion quality-evaluation

(meaning: if only all our regular problems were replaced with ones like this)

@Jin That's why SE only hires the best in graphics design! :)

5:23 AM

@Jin and the images couldn't grow with the digits?

@HodofHod technically, I think I can make it happen. but I wonder how it'd look in practice.

hmmm.

imagine a question with short post body, and with a bunch of answers that also have short text. then you'd see a lot of these scrolls repeating. would be distracting.

here's a good example

but I probably won't get into the icons until later. so we have time to think about it. normally I keep the icons simple, unless the overall design really calls for complicated ones.

6:23 AM

Blog - Stack Exchange: Tips for Planners of 350+ Stack Overflow Worldwide Meetups!

Laura Dobrzynski on April 23, 2012

In case you haven’t heard, April 28th is the 2nd annual Stack Overflow Meetup Everywhere day! We want all Stack Overflow and tech-themed Stack Exchange users to have a chance to grab a beer, present projects, and spend some time with each other offline. However you format the event is great; this day is about bringing the community together, so plan whatever kind of event you need to in order for your city to have fun.

We’re less than a week away from the Meetup day (April 28), so if you haven’t already secured a venue, it’s important to get that done. Several people ha …

Maybe it's better to use Jewish Stars as badges not favorites. Consider these badges: android.stackexchange.com/badges

@DoubleAA I was thinking about that... but I was afraid that the Star may be over used.

think about user profile, or user signature, we show the badge count, pretty much everywhere.

@Jin I agree.

but I haven't come up with a fitting badge icon design. I think it was @IsaacMoses who suggested a crown

3

A: Design for Judaism.SE

An idea for badges: stylized crowns. In Avot 4:13, the image of a crown is used in a generalized sense to indicate status (priesthood, sovereignty) and achievement (Torah, good name): Rabbi Shimon would say: There are three crowns--the crown of Torah, the crown of priesthood and the crown of...

I like that one.

6:37 AM

I like it too. I saw @msh210's comment to @IsaacMoses's proposal, and I respectfully disagree. The badges on SE sites are personal achievement indicators, not to show off.

@IsaacMoses @HodofHod gold/silver/copper worlds (In the world-to-come tzaddikim will inherit 310 worlds) :)

@ShmuelBrin Ummm, too metaphorical?

7:30 AM

hm I can't seem to find a question on the site that has Hebrew letters in the question title

4

Q: חבורה about the necessity for finding a מנין

I am trying to make a source sheet about the necessity for finding a מנין. More specifically, whether or not one has to always be in close range of a מנין, or if he can intentionally put himself in a position in which he cannot get to one. I would appreciate any sources you can give me.

tefilla sources-mekorot minyan priorities

1

Q: Why do we say באהבה twice in the sentence beginning ותתן לנו ה' אלקנו in Musaf for Yom Tov?

In Musaf for Yom Tov, we say ותתן לנו ה' אלקנו באהבה [שבתות למנוחה ו] מועדים לשמחה את יום החג הזה זמן .... [באהבה] מקרא קדש וכי (additions for Shabbos in square brackets and italics.) Why do we need another באהבה for Shabbos when we already had one earlier in the same sentence?

tefilla yom-tov musaf text

4

Q: Why do they replace one טל for another in shmoneh esre in Israel?

Why, in Israel, do they get rid of ותן טל ומתר in barech aleinu but then add מוריד הטל in ata gibor? If it's the end of the season for טל (which, maybe i'm wrong, but I don't think there an end to that one) then stop saying טל. If it's not the end then leave it in both places. I know they get rid...

tefilla eretz-yisrael shemona-esrei weather

@HodofHod thanks! I'm just trying different fonts, to make sure the Hebrew letters show up well. I think I'll stay away from web fonts for the site design, because of unpredictable Hebrew letters rendering.

@Jin Ok

8 hours later…

3:08 PM

Here's one where the whole title is in Hebrew with vowels:

2

Q: וּמַצּוֹת עַל מְרֹרִים יֹאכְלֻהוּ

In Parshas Bo (12:8) it says: וּמַצּוֹת עַל מְרֹרִים יֹאכְלֻהוּ but by the Parsha of Pesach Sheni in Bamidbar (9:11) it says: עַל מַצּוֹת וּמְרֹרִים Why the Change in the Language?

parshanut-torah-comment passover matzah bo behaalotcha-parsha

@DoubleAA thanks.

3:56 PM

@Jin I like.

@IsaacMoses I like! Copyright issues?

2 hours later…

5:28 PM

@msh210, your bounty on my question expires tomorrow and we still have no answers. What else (if anything) should we do?

4

Q: Why does the second aliya of Vayeira start with the last verse of one topic and then change?

The second aliya of Vayeira begins at 18:15, with the end of the Sarah-denying-having-laughed episode. It then goes on to focus on S'dom and the other cities. This happens in the middle of a column, not near a "paragraph" break of either sort, so the division isn't dictated by those boundaries ...

torah-reading vayera

(This is the first time anybody's offered a bounty on one of mine...)

5:57 PM

Boy I'm looking forward to getting home tonight so I can see all those images y'all are talking about. :-) (My employer blocks wherever SE images are hosted.)

@MonicaCellio IMHO if you have a bounty out, but haven't gotten any answers, it's fair game to bump it for the last day.

But I don't think that'll be necessary this time.

6:09 PM

@MonicaCellio Now see there. :-)

6:48 PM

@DoubleAA Excellent. :-)

And thanks!

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V'dibarta Bam

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