V'dibarta Bam - 2014-03-12

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1:09 AM

@MonicaCellio I've definitely heard the sentiment before, I just don't recall a Talmudic source.

@HodofHod thanks. I may be mistaken about where I've heard it. If it's real and someone turns it up, we can add it. If not, no harm done -- it just felt like it was on the tip of my memory, so to speak, so I asked in here.

Either way, I suspect one might be able to draw a kal vachomer from R' Avahu's statement.

@HodofHod Not necessarily - since a convert is considered like born anew, if they never sin then they would be in the category of a perfect tzaddik.

...and I suspect that if a talmudic sage had drawn that kal vachomer, there would have been at least two pages of debate, and for sure a tosfos or two....

(low estimate)

@GeminiMan Does that mean they get no credit for their mitzvos?

@HodofHod ??

1:17 AM

Assuming they observed the sheva mitzvos, and that those have value in and of themselves.

@HodofHod Is the latter a question?

@HodofHod judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/ask

@msh210 Rhetorical. I don't really doubt it.

@HodofHod Maybe the reard for their 7 mitzvos is that they get the merit to convert

reward

Mar 5 at 16:49, by Isaac Moses

@GeminiMan Anyone can edit their messages in chat within the first few minutes after posting them; only mods can do so later.

Mar 5 at 16:51, by Isaac Moses

@GeminiMan 2 ways: 1) Hover over the left edge of the message until a little triangle pops up, click on it to bring up a little menu, then click on the "edit" link. 2) Put your cursor in the message-entry box, and hit the up-arrow

:-)

1:34 AM

@msh210 schon vergessen

@GeminiMan Ich oichet fargess a sach. (Un mein Yidish-sprach is gerferlech.)

2 hours later…

3:09 AM

is this a qualifying answer for a purim torah question? It doesn't make the mistake of taking the question seriously, but there is nothing purim about the answer.

@YEZ It's not terribly funny, but I don't think there's anything deletable about it.

@IsaacMoses I'd say it's terribly not funny. But I am mesupak if it qualifies for an answer in purim Torah language.

@YEZ BTW - Is this play on words פוריא=bed the source that you can mekayam the halachah of ad shelo yoda by going to sleep?

@YEZ I recommend commenting to the author, recommending at least a modicum of wackification.

@GeminiMan I think the source is the Rama.

@IsaacMoses Yeah, but is this his source?

3:18 AM

@GeminiMan His source may well have been observation of minhag in his area. Checking ...

@GeminiMan I'd thought about that. and @GeminiMan the Rambam

oops that was redundant

@IsaacMoses Hey - don't take me too seriously!

Poe's law, named after its author Nathan Poe, is an Internet adage reflecting the idea that without a clear indication of the author's intent, it is difficult or impossible to tell the difference between an expression of sincere extremism and a parody of extremism. The law and its meaning Poe's law, in broader form, is: The core of Poe's law is that a parody of something extreme by nature becomes impossible to differentiate from sincere extremism. A corollary of Poe's law is the reverse phenomenon: sincere fundamentalist beliefs can be mistaken for a parody of those beliefs. History The...

8^P

second ping was supposed to be @IsaacMoses

@IsaacMoses I guess I should have asked "Is this his sauce" to indicate wackiness

3:29 AM

@GeminiMan Except that then, I would assume you meant peanut sauce.

@IsaacMoses well at least it would have been wacky

@YEZ nutty, even

... and probably edible by the Rama on Pesach

@IsaacMoses oy.

11 hours later…

2:40 PM

@YEZ, you're on a roll with your Popular Purim Torah questions.

3:24 PM

@IsaacMoses Are peanuts considered kitniyos in America?

@GeminiMan Alas, that appears to be the the prevailing practice.

@GeminiMan I've heard that R' Moshe Feinstein would get them as a treat on Pesach while growing up in Russia, but when he saw that people in the US don't eat them, he stopped doing so himself.

4:24 PM

I suspect that if I run this after Stack Exchange Data Explorer updates on Monday, we'll see numbers indicating a spike in new users. I can't help but wonder whether this is related to [Joel publicizing] Purim - Mi Yodeya?. On a related note, if even a few percent of the 600+ people who have viewed the landing page distribute P-MY in their Mishloach Manot, we may see another spike of new visitors on or right after Purim, and you know what that means.

... so, some extra vigilance on and after Purim may be indicated.

5:13 PM

@IsaacMoses I really only ask them to see what @msh210 will answer

@IsaacMoses I don't actually know what that means. Look out for newbie mistakes and be polite?

@YEZ Visit the site if you have time; look out for newbie mistakes, spam, and drunken misbehavior; and comment, edit, flag, vote to delete, etc.. "Be polite" should go without saying. :)

@IsaacMoses should

@YEZ and lend a helping hand if you can. New people sometimes don't understand the format, thinking it's a discussion forum or the like. Let's help them learn and become constructive contributors instead of making them feel rejected.

2

Input wanted: I think the latest edit to this changes the meaning (see my comment) and am inclined to roll it back, but I'd like some other eyes on it first. Opinions?

(I thought I could @-ping an editor from a comment, but that didn't work. Otherwise I would have just asked the editor about it.)

5:32 PM

@MonicaCellio You are able to, but it won't autocomplete the name.

@YEZ Pedantry != impoliteness. Nor does it equal politeness for that matter. Consider "It's 'whom' with a gosh darn M at the end because it's an objective pronoun you nincompoop" vs "I'm pretty sure it's 'whom' you are looking for. Consider checking with our friends on English Language & Usage to verify and let me know :)".

@DoubleAA oh! I read too much into the lack of auto-complete, then. (Goes back to edit comment.)

@msh210 thanks for the rollback (i.e. second vote on the edit).

@MonicaCellio The title of that post is written confusingly (I think "Are children born before their mother converted, Jewish?" or something even better than this, is clearer), and the content of the question does suggest that she converted after conception, because she writes that "they were raised Jewish from their time of birth". It's not clear to me what she/he really means.

@GeminiMan Raised Jewish doesn't say anything about when the mom's conversion happened. It's very easy to raise a non-Jew Jewishly.

5:47 PM

@DoubleAA True, that's why I said "it's not clear"

@GeminiMan Well the title is clear and the body doesn't contradict it.

@GeminiMan hmm, maybe. An Orthodox conversion can take years (I understand), so the "from birth" part didn't mean that to me. Maybe they've always kept a Jewish home for his sake.

actually, the body is clear

> and the mother completes her Orthodox conversion to Judaism after the child is born

how could that be any less clear?

@DoubleAA I'm not arguing one way or another, I'm suggesting that the OP could be asked what they mean.

@MonicaCellio ^^^

@DoubleAA Right, and that's what keeps it from being a dupe of this one.

@GeminiMan You mean, ask if "and the mother completes her Orthodox conversion to Judaism after the child is born" was really meant to be part of the question?

5:50 PM

@GeminiMan I thought the question was clear until that edit was made.

@GeminiMan I am arguing for one side.

@IsaacMoses I mean I can't believe we're arguing about this!

I think what the OP wrote before all the editing was the clearest

Rollback ad hasof!

@GeminiMan the title was imprecise and could have covered two other extant questions. @msh210's edit to that title fixed that issue. OP reworded it a bit to its detriment, IMO. I have now made a slight change to OP's version to make it clearer without losing OP's sentence structure.

6:21 PM

@DoubleAA I think the רוח הדברים is the same

@YEZ Good for you? You aren't giving me much to respond to.

@DoubleAA I didn't realize this had anything to do with you. It is about a general attitude of dealing with new users.

I'm not sure what needs to be given to be responded to. I think new users feel mistreated when they are given terse negative feedback

@YEZ What is "this"? You responded to my comment implying disagreement but not specifying what was insufficient with my distinction.

@DoubleAA I was implying that your distinction was irrelevant to this conversation. Isaac said we need to be polite to new users. I don't think he meant a gzeiras hakasuv of politeness, but to make them feel welcome. Pedantry does not make them feel welcome. So you can bring out your dictionary and your thesaurus but you are just obfuscating the issue.

@YEZ I continue to disagree based on my above comment.

@YEZ The example comment about "whom" was pedantic and polite and welcoming. (at least, the latter one was)

6:46 PM

i'm still interested in hearing why you think pedantry as you call it is synonymous with politeness for our purposes given my objections as laid out above.

@DoubleAA That was my point. The point was being welcoming, not being polite. And the linked post was a reference to being a stickler in such a way that was turning people away because they were not being helped, they were being criticized. Under the guise of attention to detail.

If you would like to tenaciously cling to your literalism and ignore the point, that's fine.

But I think everyone else will have known the intended meaning.

@YEZ (I think this deliberation will go best if we all stick to the meta-issue at hand and avoid personalizing matters or questioning motives or states of mind)

@IsaacMoses OK - I have one succinct point which is not pointed at any individual - I was not intending to make pedantry synonymous with politeness. I was referencing a post in which pedantry was being used as a way of being unwelcoming. I was pointing out that as much as being understanding and accomodating to new users should be obvious, that post highlights that it seemingly isn't obvious in practice. עד כאן

@YEZ Isaac never claimed (at least, not yet) that being accommodating to new users should be obvious. He claimed being polite should be.

If your reply regarded accommodation then posting it in response to a claim about politeness was rather confusing.

7:02 PM

@DoubleAA Ok this is my last comment on the issue. Read that post. Tell me if you can, after searching long and hard, find any examples of being impolite (albeit using pedantry. I'm sorry if it's confusing to anyone that it happened to be in a post about pedantry). I do not care about defining pedantry. I was referencing where pedantry was being used in an impolite way. If you wish to ignore my point, that is fine.

@YEZ If I wished to ignore you I would have left this chat room an hour ago.

Since that is not the case, I responded to your points saliently and seriously.

@YEZ Am I seeking examples of impolite usage of pedantry in that post, in the post that sparked it, or on the site in general?

אין לי כח. כוונתי ברורה.

יגעתי -- ולא מצאתי

@DoubleAA אני לא מאמין

(sorry; obligatory)

@IsaacMoses (of course! I would never suspect you of violating dina d'gemara.)

@IsaacMoses (Is that a lav deoraita or derabanan? #PTIJ)

7:14 PM

@DoubleAA judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/ask

@DoubleAA or, compare with the laws of not believing L"H

@IsaacMoses my thoughts exactly

Huh! Maybe those laws are actually the sauce for this one. It's not describing a law of nature, but a law of epistemological regulation, like the L"H laws. Q: I understand how the person who says "יגעתי -- ולא מצאתי" is saying L"H about himself, which I am therefore obligated to disbelieve, since he's testifying to his own ineffectiveness as a finder. But how is "לא יגעתי -- ומצאתי" auto-L"H? ...

... And how is לא יגעתי -- ולא מצאתי," which says that the speaker is lazy, not L"H?

@IsaacMoses that answers your first question

@YEZ Good point, but then it's a tarti desatrei.

@IsaacMoses How so?

7:23 PM

@DoubleAA because either attesting to self laziness is l"h or it isnt

@YEZ ... or invoke chisurei mechsera to insert an "im tomar" clause between my first and second Qs

@IsaacMoses You mean you expect me to memorize all of these comments?

(Tiferes Yisroel says chisurei mechsera was to fit the words into a tune to facilitate memorization)

@YEZ You'd better. There's been a wave of deletions in here recently.

@IsaacMoses It is spring time. Higher tides.

(That's of course a joke. Spring tides are connected to lunar phases not seasons. Today is 10 Adar so it'll be a pretty average tide.)

@IsaacMoses In any case, I think the laziness is not the lashon hara, after all השינה משובחת. The L"H of לא יגעתי ומצאתי is mima nafshach - either you don't really understand and you are attesting to your not being a lamdan, or you understood without learning and you are attesting to your nevuah, in which case you are either a shoteh or a child.

and we all know how terrible children are.

7:31 PM

@YEZ I appreciate your sensitivity in not speaking ill of shotim

I learned to be very sensitive.

@YEZ You're just the dude with the can-opener running around in the worm warehouse today, aren't you?

2

@IsaacMoses I thought about that after I pressed return.

and that's an awesome mashal.

@YEZ :) thanks

8:11 PM

@MonicaCellio Somewhat related (Tosafos, Kiddushin 70b): וה"ר אברהם גר פירש לפי שהגרין בקיאין במצות ומדקדקין בהם קשים הם לישראל כספחת דמתוך כן הקב"ה מזכיר עונותיהם של ישראל כשאין עושין רצונו.

@MonicaCellio Translation: Rabbi Avraham the Convert explained that since converts are knowledgeable about the commandments and are careful with them, they are difficult to the Jews like leprosy, for due to [their conscientiousness], the Holy One Blessed be He recalls the sins of the Jews [by contrast] when they do not fulfill His will.

@Fred just make sure not to quote the rest of the tosefos

@YEZ That's not directly relevant to Monica's comment, put go ahead and quote that, too, if you want.

@Fred no, the rest is antithetical to her comment.

@YEZ Some of the rest is antithetical, some of it is neutral.

@Fred I was being ironic, not facetious. (assuming I know what both of those mean.)

8:18 PM

@YEZ Ok. Anyway, the two interpretations aren't per se contradictory; they may refer to discrete subsets of converts.

@Fred Yes, but the latter set assumes a certain viewpoint of the norm.

@YEZ Could be.

@Fred True, it isn't incontrovertible, but they are explaining the words of the gemara which seem to be a general statement.

8:34 PM

@YEZ Also:

14

Q: Welcoming new users

Since the beginning of mi.yodeya 1.0, I've made it my practice to welcome new users. I'd like to make it clear that while I'm happy to continue doing this whenever I get the opportunity, anyone else who wants to is more than welcome to also do it (as some have). Here's the pattern I usually foll...

discussion community new-users

@IsaacMoses Ya it was after I saw that that I took the liberty to welcome new users even though I'm pretty new here myself.

@YEZ Excellent! How did you happen to find that meta post?

@DoubleAA I find this being posted within 6 minutes of the question being posted rather impressive.

@IsaacMoses don't remember. perusing. linked from some other conversation maybe.

in fact, wait a minute...

never mind. I thought it may have been linked in one of the cans of worms that I opened.

@Fred thanks for that pointer! (But now I'm curious about the rest of it. The goal isn't just to validate my comment, after all -- if there's something that counters it I'd like to know that too.)

8:49 PM

@MonicaCellio it doesn't counter it. The other remarks take approaches which point out how converts can be harmful to the Jewish people. But not intrinsically, just because many do not act appropriately.

I was making light of more of a PC issue than a real valid response.

@IsaacMoses wow. Impressive, @DoubleAA!

If I press up, how do I change my mind from editing a comment? I can't seem to unselect it.

@YEZ Esc

@IsaacMoses sweetness. Thanks.

@YEZ converts can have frustrating effects, it seems -- too careful and others may look bad by comparison; not careful enough and they're lowering the average, so to speak. ("Careful" isn't the best word here; I'm looking for a mix of stringent, precise, careful enough to check if in question, intense... and none of those are quite right either, but I hope I'm communicating without causing other problems.)

8:54 PM

@MonicaCellio how about too good at doing ratzon Hashem?

and the vice versa

@YEZ or seeking to, or seeming to -- none of us know what ratzon Hashem really is, after all. We just all do our best.

although tosefos does use the word "expert and precise"

Fervent. Maybe fervent is a useful word in the mix.

@YEZ precise is good.

@MonicaCellio I think what the Torah says is a pretty good benchmark.

I mean a good characterization of what I was thinking.

8:56 PM

@MonicaCellio was one of your options in parentheses

@YEZ sure, so do I -- but do we always understand it the same? Mainly yes, of course, but there are lots of details that vary.

@YEZ oh. So it was.

(Self-deprecating remark typed and removed per the "saying L"H about oneself" discussion.)

@DoubleAA don't know if my in-thread ping worked, so here

@MonicaCellio The Tosafos was providing various interpretations for R' Chelbo's remark that converts are troublesome to the Jewish people like leprosy. The list includes: 1. This refers to converts who are not careful with the commandments and therefore bring harm to the Jewish people. 2. Additionally these converts may exert a bad influence on other Jews. 3. The more converts there are, the more Jews have an opportunity to violate the negative commandment against being mean to converts....

@Fred ספחת = stomache virus?

...4. The exile exists in part so that Jews will spread the message of HaShem abroad and thereby give non-Jews everywhere the opportunity to convert. Thus, converts are responsible for the exile.

9:08 PM

@Fred ah. And does somebody (either the Tosafos or another) address the flip side, that maybe converts through their zeal inspire other Jews -- that they're a good influence, in other words? And if we're to be a light to the nations and bring everybody to Hashem, also a sign of progress? (I'm not arguing for one position over the other; I think it's both/and, not either/or. Just wondering whether there's support for any of the positive interpretations.)

... 5. The interpretation of Rabbi Avraham the Convert mentioned above. 6. They dilute the lineage of the Jewish people, which does have some spiritual value.

(Sorry, didn't mean to interrupt.)

@MonicaCellio Yes, presumably you can find plenty of material like that. Just that this particular Tosafos had to grapple with how to interpret R' Chelbo's seemingly negative remark.

@MonicaCellio No prob; I'm done.

@MonicaCellio I don't know these sources, but I suspect that the flip side is more intuitive and therefore goes without saying.

@Fred gotcha. Thanks for the explanation! (I guess I'm wondering if anybody picks up on the part before the "and so (are like leprosy etc)" part -- that part about being knowledgeable etc.

@IsaacMoses ah. That could be.

9:12 PM

@IsaacMoses I can't tell if you are kidding or not. The answer doesn't sound familiar to you?

@DoubleAA Poe's Law strikes again. No, I was not kidding. No, the answer didn't sound familiar to me, as I haven't memorized all of MY. Now that you mention it, I see this, so I'm a little less impressed, but still quite pleased that deja-jew got that answer so quickly and @YEZ's so soon after

@DoubleAA FWIW, I wasn't kidding. I may have missed some back-story (looks like), but I'm impressed that you were able to put together that answer in ~6 minutes.

@IsaacMoses I further encourage you to look through the answers here judaism.stackexchange.com/q/13054/759

@DoubleAA OK, so you're good at looking up sources and not just good but really fast at looking up previous work on MY. :)

@YEZ ספחת=two of the four shades of white skin colour for מצורע

9:21 PM

@GeminiMan Or, more generally, probably some kind of lesion.

@GeminiMan don't know why I had it in my head as stomache virus.

@YEZ How did you get a stomach virus in your head?

It's rough having stomache viruses in one's head

AHH i was just typing that!!!

Change of subject - I thought I saw here a question some time ago, something like why don't we make a beracha on certain mitzvos - maybe it was for standing for an elder, or matonos l'evyonim, or something similar. Ring any bells, anyone?

6

Q: Bracha on Kibud Av Va'eim

Why do we not make a Bracha (e.g. every morning) on the mitzvah of honoring one's parents?

halacha blessing kibbud-av-veim-honoring

9:27 PM

@IsaacMoses TY - are there others like this? (I guess they might be dupes)

@IsaacMoses I'm asking because I saw an answer today דרך אגב.

10:06 PM

@IsaacMoses I just realized which badge I got for that - any idea how that got so much attention? approaching 2.5k!

10:57 PM

@YEZ wow, close to the silver badge for views already! It must have been a network hot question -- unless it was linked somewhere popular?

This is on the hot-questions list, currently at 195 views -- let's see how quickly that goes up how much.

Also hot (65 views now).

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Mar '1412

V'dibarta Bam

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