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1:11 AM
@Fred Oveid Avoda Zara?
 
 
1 hour later…
2:22 AM
@ShmuelBrin The Rambam explains what the practice was: אבל המוסרים והאפיקורסין מישראל היה דין לאבדן ביד ולהורידן עד באר שחת מפני שהיו מצירים לישראל ומסירין את העם מאחרי ה. So apostates that were actively threatening the lives of Jews or trying to convert other Jews were included.
 
 
1 hour later…
3:30 AM
@Fred I don't believe you should try to apologize for some rulings which are there , and I myself see nothing wrong in it. Even the literal bible has such rulings
1
A: Jewish sects that accept only the Tanach

ArielThe Rambam discusses this, and is very severe about someone who does so from his own ideas (in contrast to a child who was raised this way): Rambam - Shoftim - Mamrim - Chapter 3 Halacha 1 A person who does not acknowledge validity of the Oral Law is not the rebellious elder mentioned in th...

here a ruling of killing is given on those who do not accept the oral laws
Even Jesus had shown contempt for the Oral laws , thus attracting the anger of the Rabbis
Rambam - Shoftim - Mamrim - Chapter 3

Halacha 1

A person who does not acknowledge validity of the Oral Law is not the rebellious elder mentioned in the Torah. Instead, he is one of the heretics and he should be put to death by any person.
Far from a court approved capital punishment , the halacha gives freedom to any person to kill a heretic who denies the Oral Law. This is clearly a standing instruction that can be executed by anyone.
 
3:46 AM
@Islam How you know what "clearly" is or isn't anything in regards halacha is beyond me.
 
@DoubleAA After a study even a non jew can become an expert in halacha, in the same way a non muslim can become an expert in sharia.
 
@Islam Perhaps, but I have a hard time considering a Jew a real expert in halacha without at least 5-10 years of solid advanced study, and that's with all the background they would have just by knowing the practices and language from growing up with it.
 
e.g There are many great institutes like oxford institute of Islamic studies which have non Muslim professors who teach Islamic studies and Shariah
 
@Islam This is not apologetics. There is a lot of literature that discusses this, and this topic is to be understood from the totality and context of the literature.
 
coming to the capital punishment, the tanach also has capital punishment for Idolaters in Israel, yet people \rabbis don't follow it
 
3:56 AM
@Islam There is a distinction between what a high court had the authority to do during the time of the Temple, and what individuals have the authority to do in self-defense or in defense of others.
 
@Fred The answer by Ariel seems to know better than myslef, He himself has given a clear answer that heretics should be killed according to Halacha
@Fred That halacha is from the post temple period by the mighty Rambam so it does apply now
 
@Islam Defense of others, in that time period, included defense from predatory corruptive subversion of Judaism.
 
@Fred Ya , but all groups within Judaism would think that they are the 'true' jews and others are heretics.
e.g: Samaritans consider themselves to be the original Bani Israel
 
@Islam Certain things still applied in the time of the Rambam, namely killing those who had a presumption that they would slander innocent Jews and get them killed. That's self defense.
@Islam In general, halacha has to be considered according to the circumstances of the time, and one must be careful in extrapolating to another set of circumstances.
@Islam The Rambam explicitly states that those heretics that were raised that way are not included.
 
Also , in Judaism itself it is a big question as to who is a Jew , like the reform conversion is not acceptable to orthodox and so on..
@Fred Correct , only new heretics are included in this , So does it matter?
4
Q: Who is a Jew... According to Muslims?

DanielIn Islam, Ahlul al-Kitaab have a special, protected status. For example, a Muslim man may marry a Jewish or Christian woman. Because of this, it is relevant to determine who is a Jew or a Christian. It is easy to determine who is a Christian because anyone who professes a belief that Jesus is th...

 
4:05 AM
@Islam The new heretics of the time were generally people who were physically dangerous (via slander) and spiritually predatory out of a sense of malevolence.
 
The above question , although being correct about Jews does have a wrong assumption about christians . As many Muslim scholars don't recognize trinitarian christians(believe Jesus to be a part of triune God) and marriage with such would be seen on par as marriage with pagans which is prohibited
 
@Islam It's pretty obvious that it doesn't apply as you seem to think it might, since it hasn't been done by anyone ever since certain conditions (including presumptive danger) ceased to exist many hundreds of years ago.
 
4:26 AM
@Fred Wrong , people no longer practice it in the same way many Jews no longer practice the sabbath or have been stop being observant, does that change the halacha?
ofcourse not
 
5:26 AM
@Isaac Do you have access to the most recent edition of Jewish Action?
 
@DoubleAA Yes, actually.
 
Check out RAZZ's piece
Based on the summary he gave me a month ago, I suspect you'll find it interesting
@HodofHod too
 
@DoubleAA Read it, thanks. :) He debunks the historicity of the "on that spot the Beit Hamikdash was built" story. He concludes, though, that it's a nice story anyway that promotes authentically Redemptive values.
... so, yeah, I'll keep referring to it when applicable to the situation
It's online, by the way: ou.org/jewish_action/08/2013/…
 
5:55 AM
@Islam Millions of Jews still base their lives on observance of halacha. It is rather your understanding of halacha that is deficient.
 
6:15 AM
@Fred ProTip: it's not worth your time.
4
 
6:25 AM
@Fred "Judaism does not advocate throwing people into pits for their beliefs." - we execute Idolators. If a Jew worships idols, he gets executed even if he is all-in-all a good guy.
 
6:51 AM
@DoubleAA Interesting!
Thanks for the pointer, and thanks @Isaac for the link.
 
 
2 hours later…
9:18 AM
@ShmuelBrin Even today this holds?
And technically a Jew cannot leave his jewishness, so if a Jew starts following another Ideology which involves worship of Idols like the ones found in the catholic church , does this ruling apply?
Anyways even if this is true it is no longer applied due to fear of people
 
 
4 hours later…
12:58 PM
9 hours ago, by Fred
@Islam There is a distinction between what a high court had the authority to do during the time of the Temple, and what individuals have the authority to do in self-defense or in defense of others.
@ShmuelBrin 1000s of line of chat have been wasted because Ali (AKA Islam) was confused. Fred knows very well that idolatry gets skilah (and not pit-throwing). Your comment is not constructive at all.
 
1:13 PM
And who starred it???
 
1:55 PM
Comments are not for weak answers. If you had provided some investigative path (e.g. suggesting a source or a line of inquiry), that would be something for a comment. But this is not really a comment and very weak as an answer. Generally it's better to hold off until you can provide a more-fully-baked answer. The question will still be here later when you're ready to provide sources. — Monica Cellio 16 hours ago
@MonicaCellio 1) You can do that?
2) Is it really a good idea to create a first-class post (answer) with acknowledged poor quality and without even desire of its author to create it?
1) No. It never actually was a comment. The author just wanted it to be made into one.
2) I see that therefore, you are actually justifying administrative inaction, not action.
I've deleted the misleading meta-note in the answer. Sorry about misinterpreting your comment.
 
@IsaacMoses right -- we have no way to go from comment to post, only the reverse. It would be better if that answer had not been made at all since it is not a good answer, but since it does attempt to answer the question (albeit badly) it's not an NAA-deletion candidate.
@IsaacMoses no worries! (I hadn't even seen it yet.) There were a lot of new posts this morning and I haven't gotten through everything yet.
 
@DoubleAA Do you doubt it? , it is clear from the halacha ruling , its an unconditional order.
 
@MonicaCellio Agreed. And I also agree with the implied policy of not being a human workaround for the deliberate technical restriction on low-rep users' posting comments
 
@IsaacMoses thanks for deleting the meta note. (I'll delete my comment as obsolete in time, too -- want to give the author a chance to see it.)
@IsaacMoses yes. The rep threshold is there for a reason. This doesn't mean we'll never comment-ify a low-rep user's post, but no one should presume that we will either.
 
@MonicaCellio I am unable to edit my profile page on JSE?
showing 404
 
2:10 PM
@Islam huh, weird -- it shows the form for me. I wonder if suspension prevents editing? I'll try to find out.
@Islam it appears that suspended users cannot edit profiles. (That is, that this is by design, not a bug.)
 
@MonicaCellio But I need to change my User name
 
@Islam I'm not sure what discretionary power moderators have on this. What do you want to change it to? I can raise it with the team to see if we can do that on your behalf. (No promises; as I said, I don't know what rules and guidelines there are around this yet.)
 
I wanted to change it to: IbrahimsDeenIsIslam
 
@Islam err, no; we could discuss changing to a neutral name (like your origianl one), but not one that is provocative.
 
Thanks for the concern!
ok this: WorshipAllahAlone
 
2:25 PM
@Islam oh wait; your profile name already is your original name. (Your chat name is different and I got confused.)
@Islam no.
 
@MonicaCellio I dont think this is provocative
its pretty much neutral atleast between Jews and Muslims
 
@MonicaCellio IMO, the burden should be on the suspended user to demonstrate a compelling need to change the name, not on the mod/administration to demonstrate objectionability of particular choices
 
@IsaacMoses right. @Islam, you are asking us to do you a favor (which we might not even be allowed to do); you should show a reason, and know that since you are asking a favor in the first place you shouldn't ask for things that you know will be problematic.
 
@MonicaCellio Please have a second thought on this name WorshipAllahAlone its pretty much standard
And it also conveys in my questions that the question is coming from a Muslim
which I think it is good to convey on a site that is largely Jewish
 
 
2 hours later…
4:55 PM
@ShmuelBrin In addition to @DoubleAA 's correct remarks, I should note that idolatry is an action, not a belief.
 
@Islam I think your current name Ali conveys that pretty well.
@Fred At least, the court-punishable form.
 
@DoubleAA Yes, and otherwise my point was that measures were taken when a belief could, under certain circumstances, indicate a presumption regarding future action.
 
@DoubleAA sorry :)
 
5:49 PM
@Fred Idolatry is a concept , and you don't even need Idols to become an Idolater
one can fall into idolatry without an Idol too, like invoking saints\baal
btw I was suspended , Why?
@MonicaCellio May I know why I keep on getting suspended without getting the "reason" link?
i
I am asking you because you are the Mod here
 
@Islam when you were suspended from Mi Yodeya you received a message (via email and I think also your Stack Exchange inbox). I can't discuss its contents in public.
 
@MonicaCellio And even if you could discuss those contents, the rest of the population of this room may well find such discussion tiresome. I, for one, would.
 
@MonicaCellio I am talking about chat suspension
I am getting suspended for no reason in Chat
a few days back the same thing happened and it showed suspended for 364 days, I contacted support and they said its a bug...
Also while being suspended I used to find my avataar in the room even though I was logged off
and that too with a non parent site avatar "Jesus Bough Islam" from CSE
 
6:06 PM
@Islam oh. That's harder, as lots of people could have done that. (I haven't done so recently.) If you post something that is flagged as offensive and a moderator -- any SE moderator, not just the ones here -- confirms that it's offensive, you get auto-banned for a short time. If that's been happening to you, you should think about what you've posted that might cause that reaction.
 
My main chatid is Islam and CSE has "JesusBoughtIslam"
@MonicaCellio Yes , but every time I get a link to the content that was deemed offensive
but for the past 2 suspensions I am not getting any"reason" link
and have I said something offensive here?
 
@Islam Your icon and name come from your parent site, the one designated as your "main" site. I don't know why you're not getting "reason" links; I suggest you use the "contact us" link to ask about that. The SE staff folks have more information than we mods do; I can't answer your questions but they probably can.
 
@Islam You invited me to chat in a room that I wasn't in. I believe you have been warned not to do that. So I suspended you for an hour.
 
@JonEricson No I did not invite you
 
@Islam If I'm mistaken, I apologize for the inconvenience.
 
6:15 PM
anyways I was suspended in the past for inviting people to ISLAM chatroom, I know that people who dont like to be invited should not be invited , but some other mod had suspended me for inviting other friendly users to Chat (I think it I had invited Daniel with whom I was having conversation in another room and Wax eagle suspended me,), they did not explicitly ask for not getting invited. Don't I have the right to invite anyone to a chatroom. Its just an invitation which one can reject though?
earlier If I sent invites you might be getting messages like "Ali has invited you to Islam" does that sound too intrusive ? and now since the room name has changed does it read better now?
Although I would not invite you , but I may invite other users who may have a conversation with me and that I need to move the conversation to Islam room based on the topic
 
@Islam I don't know about specific invitations, suspensions, etc., but to the degree that people perceive that you are trying to induce interest in Islam in people who are not looking for such and in forums dedicated to unrelated purposes, they will tend to be rubbed the wrong way. People who feel that way are going to be more likely to flag, etc., justified or not.
My recommendation, based on that and based on common courtesy, would be to try to avoid giving people such a perception.
 
7:00 PM
@Isaac re this -- since it's a new post anyway (so the question is already bumped), I wouldn't see a problem with a further small edit to get unstuck. People shouldn't get in the habit of making edits just to reverse votes, but what you described is a corner case and I think it would be justified there. (Note: I haven't looked at the post, only your meta post.)
 
@MonicaCellio Thanks; good point.
 
7:42 PM
3
Q: Very early edit doesn't allow a vote change

Isaac MosesIt seems that when things move quickly enough, I can incorrectly lose the ability to change my vote on an answer. Here's what happened (on this answer), all within ~15 minutes: Answer posted I commented that the answer didn't address the question, and downvoted. OP edited the answer to address...

 

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