V'dibarta Bam

@Islam I'm talking about the name of the page. It sounds like they already have a polemic that they want to push; why should I even bother to give them the pageview? The site itself may be credible, but that article lost its credibility before I got to the text.

Isaac Moses

@Islam Found this on Google: rationalwiki.org/wiki/Globalresearch.ca

Monica Cellio

Meanwhile, it's generally worth checking claims against multiple sources; if this (whatever "this" is) is news, it should be covered elsewhere too.

Islam

@IsaacMoses Thats a great site

Monica Cellio

3:19 PM

> Many of globalresearch.ca's articles discuss legitimate humanitarian or environmental concerns, but the site has a strong undercurrent of reality warping and bullshit throughout its pages.

Despite presenting itself as a source of scholarly analysis, globalresearch.ca mostly consists of polemics many of which accept (and use) conspiracy theories, pseudoscience and propaganda.

(That's from rationalwiki.)

Islam

@MonicaCellio Yes but that URL gives PIcs and videos:

Monica Cellio

@Islam the palestinians are notorious for fabricated "news". Remember the "corpse" in Jenin that sat up and smiled before the cameras cut out?

(I cannot see your images here at work. I hope they are not offensive.

Islam

The images show some military beating up the orthodox Jews

Isaac Moses

@Islam I don't see any military in either picture, and they both appear to be close-cropped, so there's no visual context, and they're presented here without any other context.

Islam

Isaac Moses

3:31 PM

@Islam If you want to know "Does Israel persecute Orthodox Jews?" The answer is "No."

Islam

From what I read on wikis it does wants to eliminate some 'haredi' jews?

Isaac Moses

@Islam No

@Islam If you'd like to learn more about Hareidi Jews in Israel, I recommend that you start with NPOV overviews like

Haredi Judaism

Haredi Judaism ( ', ), (also spelt Charedi), is the most theologically conservative stream of Orthodox Judaism. Its members are often referred to as strictly Orthodox or ultra-Orthodox outside of Israel. Haredim view themselves as the most religiously authentic group of Jews. Haredi Judaism emerged in response to the 19th-century Jewish Enlightenment which had given birth to the Reform movement. In contrast to the ideals of Modern Orthodoxy which attempted to embrace modernity, the approach of the Ultra-Orthodox was to maintain a steadfast adherence to Jewish law by segregating itself fr...

Islam

ya I read that

I have been reading a lot on these sects

they are viewed as outcasts by the majority population who are secular

And the It seems that haredi aligns with Muslims

is there a haredi jew on this site?

Isaac Moses

(... though, I see that that article in particular is marked by the WP community as questionably-NPOV. It's still probably much more informative than other sites that don't attempt to achieve NPOV)

Islam

I read they ban internet usage

and computers

Isaac Moses

3:39 PM

@Islam If by that you mean "with anti-Israel Muslims," then no, except for a fringe of the fringe.

@Islam Yes. Quite a few active members could be thus described, depending on where you draw the line.

@Islam To varying degrees, but edict and popular practice are not perfectly aligned on this matter.

@Islam I think there have been instances of political cooperation between Hareidi and Arab political parties in Israel on issues like support for indigent families, since their respective constituencies share some economic characteristics

... or just on rules regarding small parties in the Knesset. There was this recent cute tidbit in the news:

jta.org/2013/08/01/news-opinion/…

Islam

4:18 PM

@IsaacMoses So are there any haredi on this site?

Isaac Moses

38 mins ago, by Isaac Moses

@Islam Yes. Quite a few active members could be thus described, depending on where you draw the line.

Islam

@MonicaCellio I was reading your blogs, are you a convert to Judaism?

from Christianity?

Isaac Moses

@Islam (Note that within the Jewish community, this question would be of a similar level of politeness, depending on context, to "Are you pregnant?")

4

Islam

@IsaacMoses Isn't conversion a good thing to speak of?

In Islam converts are given preferential treatment and people would be eager to hear their stories

Isaac Moses

@Islam It's delving into a person's personal status and history. Like asking if someone's pregnant, that can be cool to ask about if you're close friends or possibly pretty uncool if you're not.

Islam

4:29 PM

and converts are basically zealots in their new religion and love to speak about it

I really find it strange that in Judaism it is prohibited to speak of ones former religion

Isaac Moses

@Islam I've met plenty of expectant mothers who were thrilled to talk about it, too. :)

@Islam ?

Islam

there is only one person who has declared that he converted

Bruce Williams IIRC

Isaac Moses

@Islam We generally deal in content here much more than in personality. Also:

Tzniut

The term tzniut (Hebrew: , tzniut, Sephardi pronunciation, tzeniut(h); Ashkenazi pronunciation, tznius, "modesty", or "privacy") is used within Judaism and has its greatest influence as a concept within Orthodox Judaism and sometimes within Conservative Judaism. It is used to describe both the character trait of modesty and humility, as well as a group of Jewish laws pertaining to conduct in general and especially between the sexes. The term is frequently used with regard to the rules of dress for women. Hebrew Bible and Talmud Humility is a paramount ideal within Judaism. Moses is referr...

Islam

And this phenomenon of conversion has only come after the creation of Israel , may be to get citizenship in a rich nation. I read many applications from new converts are rejected due to this.

Isaac Moses

@Islam This is false and an uncalled-for smear of converts past and present

3

Islam

4:40 PM

@IsaacMoses I have come across many people who tried too hard to get into israel but could'nt get in due to strict laws and to discourage false converts

Isaac Moses

@Islam I believe that. Your statement about conversion being a modern, economically-driven, phenomenon was the objectionable part

Islam

Israel gives a lot of benefits to new immigrants, this has actually motivated conversions recently

And I see there are more conversions from Christianity to Judaism , post Israel then anytime in the prior history of Jews

Isaac Moses

@Islam Says who?

Islam

You can check it up with the Israel chief rabbinate

Nice talking to you, bye . I just talked whatever was on my mind as I am reading these stuff and trying to connect the dots and this is not to be taken offensive by anyone. As I may be wrong

msh210

5:56 PM

@JonEricson I haven't followed the "doctrine" and "dogma" discussion. Maybe the concern was that doctrine (as you define it here) is being assumed as a hypothesis of an answer (or even question)? Such assumption would be an example of dogma (as you define it here) -- but the person objecting to it may say he's objecting to doctrine, meaning to the assumption of doctrine. Just an idea.

@JonEricson I do not understand "he rightly reminds me that his answers will have the force of the Vatican behind them". Do Catholics believe that all Catholics are official representatives of the Holy See?

@MonicaCellio And mine, and so do I. You raised the t'shuva issue, and I replied re BH. Sorry.

Monica Cellio

@msh210 I wasn't clear enough in what I was asking about.

@msh210 this is what I mean when I talk about that, yes -- assuming that one's doctrine is true, which practice Jon recently started calling "dogma", is the problem. While BH rejects NPOV the first tenet should still be a ground rule in any polite society: "Avoid stating opinions as facts." (Or if "opinion" is insulting, the second will do: "Avoid stating seriously contested assertions as facts.")

I don't understand how following those rules could be controversial, difficult, or a barrier. Influential folks on BH hold otherwise.

msh210

@MonicaCellio I don't understand "the first tenet", "the second": are you quoting from somewhere? But I agree with your point. Perhaps "facts that a majority of humans believe false" can replace "opinions" if you want to be very nice.

Shmuel Brin

Off topic, slightly, but does anyone know if a (machshired) food touches a corpse, does it become an av (that can't metame keilim or people) or straight down to a rishon? Nafka Mina is if it can contaminate food->mashke->food.

msh210

@ShmuelBrin Not off-topic AFAICT. If you don't get an answer here in chat, I know a good site where you can ask.

2

HodofHod

6:17 PM

@Islam Pretending that's true, it tells us nothing. Converting to Judaism was a capital offense (legally and socially) in most countries for the past 2000 years. That there are more converts in modern times is very unsurprising.

(Slight oversimplification of history, but the point stands, I think)

Jon Ericson

@msh210 Kinda sorta. It's more that Catholics often feel constrained to answer with official doctrine than with more individual interpretations. Answering with the church's official answer can be problematic. (Answering with fringe interpretations is also problematic in it's own special way.)

@msh210 We already have a strong bias against doctrine in questions. As far as I know, that's not changed a lick over the years. Ask about the text, not about the teaching about the text. (Though flawed teachings about the text can often prompt good questions, if that makes sense.)

msh210

@JonEricson They have on MY, incidentally. ("Christians believe this passage of Tanach refers to Jesus. How do Jews read it?" We have at least two questions like that, I think more.)

Jon Ericson

@MonicaCellio NPOV in answers gets tricky because my neutral is not your neutral. It's easier to let people have a voice and let the voting sort things out. (And I understand your reservations with that approach when it comes to the way population distribution pans out. )

@msh210 Yeah. That can be a pretty good jumping off point for a question.

(On just about any site. But watch out for strawmen! ;)

msh210

6:33 PM

@JonEricson True that my "neutral" is not your "neutral": chi-squared tests and Talmudic quotations each have different weight on MY and, say, Skeptics, even though each has some weight on both sites. But each site should know what its "neutral" is, and if BH is supposed to be about academic biblical hermeneutics (or whatever), then that's the "neutral" that should be the standard.

Jon Ericson

6:50 PM

@msh210 Academics are not always the best examples. ;-) I would prefer the standard be "academic", not "neutral". NPOV, which is perfect for Wikipedia, is not a good fit for hermeneutics. Remember the field has included Augustine, Luther, and Spinoza in the past. Such a standard is possible, but I tremble to attempt to define, much less impose one.

msh210

Just to bring the on-topic post to the fore:

52 mins ago, by Shmuel Brin

Off topic, slightly, but does anyone know if a (machshired) food touches a corpse, does it become an av (that can't metame keilim or people) or straight down to a rishon? Nafka Mina is if it can contaminate food->mashke->food.

Monica Cellio

@msh210 sorry, got called away. I was referring to Wikipedia's NPOV definition, which I failed to actually link.

@JonEricson my neutral may not be your neutral in all cases, but can you not see the difference between "X is true" (particularly when many believe it's not!) and "so-and-so says X is true"? (A superior answer would then go on with "but thus-and-such says X is only true when A, B, C, and whats-his-name says X is never true", all with supporting material of course.)

Voting is only meaningful if people vote on quality independent of personal belief. That does not happen on BH. (It may not happen in other places too, of course.) You and I and a small handful of others may be the only people who upvote answers we personally disagree with, if they're sound.

@ShmuelBrin not off-topic. :-) Since no one currently here seems to have an answer for you, how 'bout trying the main site?

Jon Ericson

7:16 PM

@MonicaCellio The nature of voting means that you can't know why, how, or even if I voted unless I tell you. My personal guidance for voting has not changed much, if at all.

msh210

> you can't know why, how, or even if I voted unless I tell you

...usually.

Monica Cellio

@JonEricson yeah, generally agreed. (I actually do know, with 99.99% confidence, where one recent "anonymous" DV I received came from. But it's an exception.)

Hi @moshe! Welcome to Bam!

Moshe

Hey hey

Monica Cellio

@Moshe huh - I expected my ping to capitalize your name.

msh210

@Moshe הה

Moshe

7:22 PM

Guess not.

Monica Cellio

Like that one did.

Moshe

The second one started the message, the first was in the middle.

msh210

@MonicaCellio Had he spoken recently? Or is presence sufficient?

Monica Cellio

@msh210 I guess presence is sufficient (in part that was a test). If he's been here before I have failed to notice.

Fred

7:45 PM

@ShmuelBrin From what I recall from the first perek of P'sachim, the food does become an av (although there's a lot of back and forth on that sugya). See Rashi (17a, s.v. Ravina), who writes wrt kodshim "מת אבי אבות ולחם אב ונזיד ראשון ויין שני ושמן שלישי".

@MonicaCellio Today I found that that in Firefox I can't get past the "Loading V'dibarta Bam. Just a second…" window, though I have no problem with other SE chat rooms in Firefox. No problem with Chrome. Are you aware of any bugs that could be causing this?

msh210

@Fred Do you have @HodofHod's scripts running?

Fred

@msh210 I assume not, since I'm not aware of them.

Monica Cellio

@Fred how weird. I'm typing this from Firefox right now. I'm not aware of any recent changes, and that it happens with this room but not others makes me wonder if it's some weird local state. (As the SE devs like to say, "blame caching!". :-) But I don't know if that's right.)

Fred

@MonicaCellio Are you referring to my browser cache in Firefox?

Monica Cellio

@Fred I think SE usually means server caching, but now that you mention it... but it's really weird that it woudl be just us, so if flushing your cache would mess up other things for you I'd hold off on that.

I know almost nothing of the architecture behind chat.

Fred

7:58 PM

@MonicaCellio hmm, I cleared my cache and voila!

Monica Cellio

@Fred really, that fixed it?

(I was getting ready to ask folks in another chat room for help. :-) )

Fred

@MonicaCellio Well, it could also be a coincidence... but it's working now.

Monica Cellio

@Fred ok, good to hear.

Fred

@MonicaCellio Actually, I had already cleared my cache once, and it didn't work... so it's kind of strange that it worked the second time.

@MonicaCellio Anyway, thanks.

Monica Cellio

@Fred welcs. :-)

Shmuel Brin

8:02 PM

@Fred Liquid could make liquid Tamei?

Fred

@ShmuelBrin I think maybe only for kodshim - I haven't learned this stuff in a while.

@ShmuelBrin See the Rambam.

HodofHod

@Fred Can I interest you in my excellent line of userscripts?

2

;P

Fred

@HodofHod Sure.

HodofHod

:D

The two most popular scripts are linked here:

6

Q: What user scripts do we recommend for use on Mi Yodeya?

A user script is a usually-small device that you can add to your web browser to change how specific websites or all websites appear to you. It can be a way, for example, to add functionality to a site such as Mi Yodeya for yourself that doesn't exist for people who don't have the script installed...

Fred

@HodofHod Thanks!

HodofHod

8:12 PM

The keyboard has since been added by SE to the site, but it's not as fully featured as mine.

@Fred No problem. (I offered only semi-jokingly, but if you're interested then you are.)

Fred

@ShmuelBrin See, however, this Rambam.

Jon Ericson

10:53 PM

@Fred We have some standard advice for the problem:

> We occasionally see this behaviour in Firefox and as far as we know the issue is with the browser itself.

The first things to try are as follows:

- oddly enough, clearing the *browsing history* usually fixes this problem;
- if that doesn't help, clear *cookies* and try logging in again.

Fred

11:22 PM

@JonEricson Thanks.

Double AA

11:43 PM

@HodofHod Converting to anything but the state religion was a problem untill the Enlightenment.

HodofHod

Right, in most countries. I seem to recall (perhaps mistakenly) that there were periods in certain countries where this wasn't the case.

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